Americans living overseas, can we still play?

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

anyone have any idea? i live overseas but have US addy and bank account. if i change it to foreign address and bank account, than can i still play?

[RikaKazak]

IT IS FINE UNTIL THE PRESIDENT SIGNS THE BILL!!!!

HE WON'T DO SO FOR DAYS!!!!

So take time, relax, and we'll see how it develops.

[Ron Burgundy]

You not smart . read threads

[MasterLJ]

So long as you are a US citizen you are still subjected to the laws of the US.

However, this legislation targets banking instatutions within the US. So if you did all of your banking offshores, I don't see how it could be issue. The only issue would be if you came back to the US as you *may* have issues because technically a bank would be processing "Any Proceeds" from an online gambling, even though it would have been laundered through an offshore bank. Dunno how'd they trace it, but that would be the worst case scenario.

[TheMetetron]

Here's my take:

I'm a legal permanent resident of Sweden. I am also a United States citizen.

My poker sites, neteller, and mailing addresses are all in Sweden. I do not live or have connections to the USA other than obviously family. All of my poker/Neteller related accounts are linked to my Swedish USD account. I then take money from this and transfer it to my Swedish Kronor account for daily expenses. I also have US savings accounts I will hold some money in as well. I also have US credit cards I keep for emergencies or purchases that need to be made in USD or the United States. That's all the financial tie to the US I have.

This bill doesn't target individuals and mostly prohibits US banks from transferring money. I don't see how this is a problem for my sitaution. Poker is 100% legal where I am a permanent resident and all of my poker-related activities stay in Sweden and the Swedish banking system.

The three main criteria for being OK are:

- Legal resident status in another country.
- Bank accounts in that same country.
- You actually live in that country during a vast majority of the year.

If you meet all three of these, you should be fine. For those thinking of moving abroad realize that getting residence in another country isn't as easy as showing up. There are a lot of immigration procedures and you can pretty much count out the EU. I recommend Costa Rica, Panama, or something similiar.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone have any idea? i live overseas but have US addy and bank account. if i change it to foreign address and bank account, than can i still play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but Thailand is no good. You can't get a Thai address and bank account to play poker. You have to move to a different country.

[New001]

Metetron,

What makes the EU so hard to get into? Would it be the same if I have family there (through my stepfather)? Also, do you have any online resources for this kind of information for other countries?

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

hong kong?

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone have any idea? i live overseas but have US addy and bank account. if i change it to foreign address and bank account, than can i still play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but Thailand is no good. You can't get a Thai address and bank account to play poker. You have to move to a
different country.

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't have to 'move' there, only have an address there. a PO box or similar service would work fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, bank account would have to be in that country as well. Problem is you really don't want to have to file a W-9 (I don't want the government keeping track of my foreign money, even if I am paying taxes) and that's pretty much impossible w/o permanent residence there. Also, many countries won't allow bank accounts unless you reside there.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Metetron,

What makes the EU so hard to get into? Would it be the same if I have family there (through my stepfather)? Also, do you have any online resources for this kind of information for other countries?

[/ QUOTE ]

Europe hates immigrants. Stepfather is a no go for getting you in. You pretty much need immediate blood relatives here to get in. It does vary by country, however. I'm sure some may be easier than others, but most require family ties or work/school. Check the websites for various countries immigration boards.

[daveymck]

I dont see citizenship being the issue, a UK person living in the states with a US address I would expect not to be able to play if the sites ban. A US person living in the UK with a UK address would be able too.

Any banning of accounts will be done on a address basis imho.

[MasterLJ]

European unemployment is disgusting. The last thing they want is more people competing for jobs and soaking up social services. I know a bunch of people whose visas were not renewed in European countries in the last few years.

[Megenoita]

Count the EU out b/c of immigration procedures? Could you expand on this?

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Count the EU out b/c of immigration procedures? Could you expand on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, you could probably secure a visa for a temporary stay, but your chances of permanent residence in a bunch of EU countries is extremely small.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Count the EU out b/c of immigration procedures? Could you expand on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

No EU countries will let an American move there just because he wants to. This isn't Thailand or some other 3rd world country where you can pay $25,000 and become a permanent resident. Just the same as an outsider can't just pack his bags and move to the USA. You won't be granted a residence visa in Europe was my point. Try smaller/poorer countries.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Count the EU out b/c of immigration procedures? Could you expand on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, you could probably secure a visa for a temporary stay, but your chances of permanent residence in a bunch of EU countries is extremely small.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Except as an American you don't need a Visa for a temporary stay. You can travel throughout the Schengen region for 90 days visa free. Try to stay longer or come back within another 90 days and it's perma-ban from 90% of Europe.

Long-term visa possibilities are pretty damned limited (I'm cautious not to say impossible).

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

Why do you need to be a resident?

All you need as far as I can tell is to open a foriegn bank account, and to have a foriegn address. Right?

And does Party even check your address? You could just use a PO Box?

[Spy Dog]

[ QUOTE ]


your mailing address and your bank have to be in the same country

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a US citizen living permanently in Ireland. My Neteller mailing address is Ireland, but my bank is in the US. I've never had a problem with Neteller and I've made several withdrawls to my US account since I changed my Neteller address from US to Ireland.

I'm pretty sure I'll need to setup a new Neteller account and link it to my Irish bank account, though, because of the new legislation.

[Ron Burgundy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone have any idea? i live overseas but have US addy and bank account. if i change it to foreign address and bank account, than can i still play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but Thailand is no good. You can't get a Thai address and bank account to play poker. You have to move to a
different country.

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't have to 'move' there, only have an address there. a PO box or similar service would work fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, bank account would have to be in that country as well. Problem is you really don't want to have to file a W-9 (I don't want the government keeping track of my foreign money, even if I am paying taxes) and that's pretty much impossible w/o permanent residence there. Also, many countries won't allow bank accounts unless you reside there.

[/ QUOTE ]


http://firstcaribbeanbank.an/

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet, do you have one these accounts? Do you know if these accounts are subject to any Caribbean taxes?

So if Neteller ends up being banned under the new legislation, I could get one of those and use that to go from my US bank > First Caribbean > poker site?

Now all I need is a way to get a Caribbean address without traveling anywhere.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you need to be a resident?

All you need as far as I can tell is to open a foriegn bank account, and to have a foriegn address. Right?

And does Party even check your address? You could just use a PO Box?

[/ QUOTE ]

Party required my US passport and a bank statement sent to my Swedish address when I changed it over with them today. No idea if you set up a new account.

Theoretically a foreign bank account/address will work but it is usually hard to get both of those without being a resident. Also if you set those up and play in the USA I'm fairly certain it's money laundering at best. If you are in Thailand, who knows.

I'm far from an expert here.

[MicroBob]

I'm allowed to do things that are perfectly legal in that country even if they aren't legal in the U.S.

One example might include a 19-year-old who can drink in Canada but can't drink in the U.S.


I would think that if you set up an account in another country and did your playing in that country then it should be perfectly legal for you.

One example: If I lived on the U.S./Canada border then I think I should be able to commute into Canada, play at a coffee-shop or something there, and it should theoretically be perfectly legal.


The law is against internet-gambling IN the United States.

Just because I'm a citizen of the U.S. doesn't mean those laws should apply to me outside the U.S., should it?

I just don't see how this would be realistic.


Just brain-storming here.
Now, whether Party would actually want to accept you as a customer if you go to Canada or something while maintaining U.S. citizenship is an entirely different story.

It sounds like they are going to just roll-over and comply with the U.S. so it is entirely possible they will just try (perhaps unsuccessfully) to prevent any U.S. citizen from playing at all EVEN IF they are in a situation where it is perfectly legal to do so.

[PokerSpiv]

Gambling of any kind is banned in Thailand. Poker sites won't cash to Thai bank accounts or even let you cash out to a foreign bank account while at a computer with a Thai IP.

What about Mexico for the yanks?

[billyjex]

What about Canada?

[nation]

[ QUOTE ]
What about Canada?

[/ QUOTE ]

[WhoIam]

I'm in the same boat. I'm a US citizen and I plan on traveling for the next year or two. I'll probably be in the US for 4 weeks/year or less and I'm fine with not playing online poker during that time (conveniently my mom lives right by Foxwoods). My concern is 1) being able to play poker abroad and take money out to live, and 2) doing this without running afoul of US law. Would I, for example, be able to wire online gambling proceeds from a foreign to US bank while abroad? Ugh, this is turning into such a mess.

I'm sure it would be possible to get a bank account and valid mailing address some place like the Cayman islands.

[bpc009]

[ QUOTE ]
Just because I'm a citizen of the U.S. doesn't mean those laws should apply to me outside the U.S., should it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely not. That's why spring break trips to Mexico are so popular, and why many Americans dream of getting high in Amersterdam.

You're examply of the Canadian coffe shop is spot on Bob.

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
Stepfather is a no go for getting you in. You pretty much need immediate blood relatives here to get in. It does vary by country, however. I'm sure some may be easier than others, but most require family ties or work/school. Check the websites for various countries immigration boards.


[/ QUOTE ]
I recall that getting Italian citizenship was not too difficult. My mother is first generation American with both of her parents born in Italy. Once you get citizenship to any EU country ..you're good to go all over the EU right?

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
What about Canada?


[/ QUOTE ]
I could dig Toronto must definetly Vancouver/BC.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stepfather is a no go for getting you in. You pretty much need immediate blood relatives here to get in. It does vary by country, however. I'm sure some may be easier than others, but most require family ties or work/school. Check the websites for various countries immigration boards.


[/ QUOTE ]
I recall that getting Italian citizenship was not too difficult. My mother is first generation American with both of her parents born in Italy. One you get citizenship to any EU country ..you're good to go all over the EU right?

[/ QUOTE ]

If one of your parents was born in a EU country and has EU citizenship then it's not too difficult. But you pretty much need to be first generation immigrant to the US from Europe. And yeah, citizenship in one is good for all (with some minor stipulations).

[jetsetboy]

For those of you who are students you can try to use the exchange student programs. I'm french and some of my friends went to US thanks to such programs while US student went to France. These US students have been allowed to stay for 1+ year as a legal resident and thus have been able to open an account in a french bank, to rent a flat and I think to play poker... There are such exchange program between a LOT of country (at least all EU country + asians + americans).

If anybody comes to Paris in the near future feel free to PM me.

[PsYcHo-ScHnAuZeR]

How long can US citizens stay in Canada each year. I'm thinking in terms of taking 2 or 3 two month vacations there each year, not a long term residence. Do they track the dates you cross the border in each direction?

[BrassMonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone have any idea? i live overseas but have US addy and bank account. if i change it to foreign address and bank account, than can i still play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but Thailand is no good. You can't get a Thai address and bank account to play poker. You have to move to a
different country.

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't have to 'move' there, only have an address there. a PO box or similar service would work fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, bank account would have to be in that country as well. Problem is you really don't want to have to file a W-9 (I don't want the government keeping track of my foreign money, even if I am paying taxes) and that's pretty much impossible w/o permanent residence there. Also, many countries won't allow bank accounts unless you reside there.

[/ QUOTE ]


http://firstcaribbeanbank.an/

[/ QUOTE ]


Degen, if you don't mind my asking, how are you going to handle this situation? I JUST bought a round-trip six-month ticket to Thailand to play poker full-time (and quit my job - lovely) in Bangkok, and would really appreciate any advice you can give me. Does the Caribbean bank account/PO Box route look promising to you? I'll look into it further...

Thanks,

Brass

[Zoffy]

Do you guys not have any relatives outside of USA?

[PrayingMantis]

KKF, your mistake is that you think you'll still want to play at party. The reasons you played party up until now is the huge number of american fish. You'll want to be playing where the (remaining) fish go, and they'll probably go to a poker site that does not care about them being from the US.

[Megenoita]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about Canada?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I.e., can I get a residential address there? Is it easy to become a resident and open a bank account?

[Big Poppa Smurf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


your mailing address and your bank have to be in the same country

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a US citizen living permanently in Ireland. My Neteller mailing address is Ireland, but my bank is in the US. I've never had a problem with Neteller and I've made several withdrawls to my US account since I changed my Neteller address from US to Ireland.

I'm pretty sure I'll need to setup a new Neteller account and link it to my Irish bank account, though, because of the new legislation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spy dog,

where in ireland do you live? I really want to visit once I graduate and can afford it.

is it super awesome? i bet it is.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

"Poker sites won't cash to Thai bank accounts or even let you cash out to a foreign bank account while at a computer with a Thai IP."

O Rly?

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about Canada?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I.e., can I get a residential address there? Is it easy to become a resident and open a bank account?

[/ QUOTE ] Canadian Immigration Rules (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/index.html)

Although I am wondering if a Mailboxes Etc suit address in Toronto and an account at the Bank of Canada would work.

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
Although I am wondering if a Mailboxes Etc suit address in Toronto and an account at the Bank of Canada would work.

[/ QUOTE ] indeed -let us know if/when you find out.

[theunderdog]

Would it be legal for an American to play in Canada anyway? Or is it just illegal for Americans to play poker online even though they are not in the US?

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys not have any relatives outside of USA?

[/ QUOTE ]

a birdie told me that could under certain circumstances potentially and theoretically that could be one way that someone may consider avoiding substantial tax liabilities...

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although I am wondering if a Mailboxes Etc suit address in Toronto and an account at the Bank of Canada would work.

[/ QUOTE ] indeed -let us know if/when you find out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Looks like canadian banks only allow accounts to canadian residents. I will keep exploring as a mental exercise.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

those trying to get italian citizenship or another citizenship from grand parents, get started NOW.

you have to get documents from state department. it takes them over a year to send them to you upon your request. no joke.

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
those trying to get italian citizenship or another citizenship from grand parents, get started NOW.

you have to get documents from state department. it takes them over a year to send them to you upon your request. no joke.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it would be easier to qualify for the Costa Rican immigration requirements. Antigua costs a minimum of $140k, Costa Rica costs as little as $50K for the non-retired and is extremely easy for the retired with sufficient monthly pension/investment income.

[BrassMonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone have any idea? i live overseas but have US addy and bank account. if i change it to foreign address and bank account, than can i still play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but Thailand is no good. You can't get a Thai address and bank account to play poker. You have to move to a
different country.

[/ QUOTE ]

doesn't have to 'move' there, only have an address there. a PO box or similar service would work fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, bank account would have to be in that country as well. Problem is you really don't want to have to file a W-9 (I don't want the government keeping track of my foreign money, even if I am paying taxes) and that's pretty much impossible w/o permanent residence there. Also, many countries won't allow bank accounts unless you reside there.

[/ QUOTE ]


http://firstcaribbeanbank.an/

[/ QUOTE ]


Degen, if you don't mind my asking, how are you going to handle this situation? I JUST bought a round-trip six-month ticket to Thailand to play poker full-time (and quit my job - lovely) in Bangkok, and would really appreciate any advice you can give me. Does the Caribbean bank account/PO Box route look promising to you? I'll look into it further...

Thanks,

Brass

[/ QUOTE ]

it is one option i am considering, i really dont know wtf is going to happen yet

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I figured. I think the main impediment is going to be in the form of procuring a foreign address. Are you certain that there are no third-party payment processors that will allow deposits and withdrawls from Thai bank accounts? I'll look into that more.

-Brass

[kabouter]

Well as far as Amsterdam goes, the best thing to do is apply for college here, it's dirt cheap compared to the us system (you have to show a bank statement where the university can see that you got €750 a month to support yourself).

And then just play poker all day long.

And all the other things sincity has to offer:

- All the softdrugs
- Alcohol when you are 16

Damn the U.S. seemed so tight when I was there /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kabouter]

Damn just saw a newspost, that the tuition fee will go from €1400 this year to €9000 next year for non dutch students...

Sorry guys, seems like god really doesn't like poker.

[SumZero]

[ QUOTE ]
I would think that if you set up an account in another country and did your playing in that country then it should be perfectly legal for you.

One example: If I lived on the U.S./Canada border then I think I should be able to commute into Canada, play at a coffee-shop or something there, and it should theoretically be perfectly legal.


The law is against internet-gambling IN the United States.

Just because I'm a citizen of the U.S. doesn't mean those laws should apply to me outside the U.S., should it?


[/ QUOTE ]

There are US laws that prohibit US citizen's behavior outside the US (for instance, laws against engaging in underage prostitution in other countries even if it is legal in that country). This law is not one of these laws. The legal analysis thread from Nelson Rose covers that the law forbids this gambling only if one of the ends of the transaction (I.e., the player or the site) is in the US. If both are out of the US then everything is fine. Even if the internet traffic connection between the two happens to travel through the US then everything is fine (which is good since in general you can't easily control internet routing of packets) as long as the end points are both outside the US. So maybe there will be a big internet cafe increase in Niagra Falls, Windsor, Vancouver, and other cross border locations.