About the WTO case

[Jay Cohen]

I see there is some chatter lately about Antigua's WTO case. Just to bring you up to date. Last Monday Antigua filed their brief with the Compliance Panel. I haven't read it since it's not yet public. But I have a good idea what it says.

It says the US has done nothing to come into compliance, not a thing. The only thing they have done is introduce bills that go against the WTO ruling. Last year the US argued before an arbitrator that it needed 2 to 3 years to come into compliance because it was so complicated. They were only given around 10 months. When the deadline passed, the US told the WTO they were in compliance since the WTO misinterpreted their laws and they didn't have to do anything. I can't make this up.

Anyway, this should be the easiest compliance issue they have ever heard. Normally the country has done something, and the complaining country is saying it's not enough. Here, they have done absolutely nothing.

I'll post the latest brief or link to it once it becomes public. In the meantime go to www.AntiguaWTO.com (http://www.AntiguaWTO.com) for details. It may need some updating but most of the core material is available.

The US gets more out of the WTO than any other country. They have always complied with WTO decisions...eventually. The world and in particular developing nations are watching this case closely. The US is always pushing them to join the WTO and telling them it's a level playing field. Major countries are also watching, they want to know why they should comply with adverse decisions if the US won't?

What can Antigua do besides bring international pressure? I am told there is precedent for the WTO to authorize Antigua to violate copyrights and patent protections until they are made whole. That may be an avenue they pursue. I was told they granted it once before and the US quickly came into compliance.

On the merits, Antigua's case was a home run, Frist's Fatwa just gave them a grand slam.

[Anders]

This is a happy thing.

[bkellog1]

About how long will the Compliance Panel take to rule?

[Zele]

Thanks very much for this update, Jay. I didn't know about the possibility of retaliatory copyright/patent violation.

[Anders]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks very much for this update, Jay. I didn't know about the possibility of retaliatory copyright/patent violation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here. I will buy dozens of Antigua brand THE LION KING dvd's in protest, if this happens.

[bkellog1]

Oh my God. Party is going to fall within the week

[Jay Cohen]

[ QUOTE ]
About how long will the Compliance Panel take to rule?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is about 90 days from Antigua's filing. Unlike US courts, the delays in WTO courts are few and when they are granted they are relatively short.

[antneye]

This may fall inline with my theory of US trying to premptively crush Europena market before going in themselves. If they know they will have to comply with the WTO and legalize here, why not try to destroy competing markets before propping up Sand.com, or Harrahs.com.

[censored] sneaky bastards.

[ginko]

As long as online poker remains for US players in any shape or form I will be happy.

This is good news, and I hope it works.

[PocketAces]

And why would the U.S. care if Antigua violates U.S. intellectual property or otherwise imposes countervailing sanctions on the U.S.? The U.S. economy is so huge in comparison to Antigua's that that effect on the U.S. would be marginally above zero.

[Zele]

A lot of people might be concerned about buying Antiguan knock-off drugs, but amazon.ag should do a brisk business.

[iron81]

Earlier WTO thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7484864&an=0&page=0#Post 7484864)

Cliffs notes: The WTO is an out for us. The problem is we have to find a government (not a poker site) that wants to go to bat for us and is big enough that the US has to worry about trade sanctions.

[Zele]

If Jay Cohen wants to start a new WTO thread every 3 hours, I vote we let him.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
And why would the U.S. care if Antigua violates U.S. intellectual property or otherwise imposes countervailing sanctions on the U.S.? The U.S. economy is so huge in comparison to Antigua's that that effect on the U.S. would be marginally above zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you kidding? what kind of boost in Antigua's economy do you think it would get by selling ripped DVD's, knock off Nike's, ADIDAS, A&F, ripped music, hell...FREE music with terabytes full of servers with adspace .01 cents a click, among countless other things due to this?

above the adspace a simple message "DOWN WITH FRIST. CLICK HERE"

i'd click 30 times.

[boohaa12]

WTO is a good thing for us players. But remmember US created GATT > GATT created WTO. US could tie any santions made against US by WTO up for years,

[PocketAces]

Are you aware that if someone tried to buy that stuff over the net it would get confiscated by Customs when it arrived in this country?

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
And why would the U.S. care if Antigua violates U.S. intellectual property or otherwise imposes countervailing sanctions on the U.S.? The U.S. economy is so huge in comparison to Antigua's that that effect on the U.S. would be marginally above zero.

[/ QUOTE ] Yeah, you're right. Nobody would be pissed at all if Antingua invested the minimal capital to make a DVD-ripping facility and, say, converting a chemical plant to make Generic viagra, levitra etc and sell it at 25 cents on the dollar.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you aware that if someone tried to buy that stuff over the net it would get confiscated by Customs when it arrived in this country?

[/ QUOTE ]

are YOU aware that you can buy hallucinogenic mushrooms online, marijuana seeds, opium poppies and countless other contraband that aren't confiscated by US customs?

[graydot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you aware that if someone tried to buy that stuff over the net it would get confiscated by Customs when it arrived in this country?

[/ QUOTE ]

are YOU aware that you can buy hallucinogenic mushrooms online, marijuana seeds, opium poppies and countless other contraband that aren't confiscated by US customs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Links?

[hedxcold]

also they'd be able to set up their own allofmp3.com with WTO approval.
maybe even an allofdvd.com

[RiverMustelid]

This has actually been a reasonable size issue in the UK. Thought you might like the article below, which suggests anger at protectionist legislation in UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5400482.stm

[PocketAces]

LOL, no I can't say that I am.

[bluefall]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you aware that if someone tried to buy that stuff over the net it would get confiscated by Customs when it arrived in this country?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you aware that the US would not be the only country able to buy these goods? However, only the US' international copyrights would be affected.

[Vern]

CNBC Europe just had a British financial expert (Simon Holiday Partner, Global Betting & Gaming Consultants) on talking about the WTO case in regards to the gaming stocks. He basically said that the WTO lacks the power to change the way the US looks at this topic and doubted they would be able to in the future, although he did not rule out legal trade challenges from those business that are publicly traded companies.

[BJK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you aware that if someone tried to buy that stuff over the net it would get confiscated by Customs when it arrived in this country?

[/ QUOTE ]

are YOU aware that you can buy hallucinogenic mushrooms online, marijuana seeds, opium poppies and countless other contraband that aren't confiscated by US customs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Links?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for a good laugh amidst an grueling month.

[meleader2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you aware that if someone tried to buy that stuff over the net it would get confiscated by Customs when it arrived in this country?

[/ QUOTE ]

are YOU aware that you can buy hallucinogenic mushrooms online, marijuana seeds, opium poppies and countless other contraband that aren't confiscated by US customs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Links?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for a good laugh amidst an grueling month.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not kidding. i've drank poppy tea that was made from poppies purchased over the internet.

[JPFisher55]

Mr. Cohen, I admire your courage and tenacity. Thank you for all the information about the WTO and this case.

[tangled]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you aware that if someone tried to buy that stuff over the net it would get confiscated by Customs when it arrived in this country?

[/ QUOTE ]

are YOU aware that you can buy hallucinogenic mushrooms online, marijuana seeds, opium poppies and countless other contraband that aren't confiscated by US customs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Links?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for a good laugh amidst an grueling month.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not kidding. i've drank poppy tea that was made from poppies purchased over the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the "good laugh" was refering to the "links?" response.

[ubercuber]

You would think some Senators would find some $motivation$ to prevent US complanies losing billions to offshore copyright anarchy.

GO ANTIGUA!

[BluffTHIS!]

JC,

Antigua has ZERO leverage wrt the US. All the WTO can do is give them a ruling that they are entitled to implement retaliatory trade sanctions in return. Which doesn't mean squat because of their size. Also, the lawyer who represents Antigua has posted in this forum in the past year, though not for a while now. Only *if* the UK should decide to go that lengthy route and was prepared to back up such a favorable ruling with trade sanctions could the WTO issue make a difference. The US is obviously lying about being in compliance, but with tiny nations like Antigua they just don't see a downside.

[oday28]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you aware that if someone tried to buy that stuff over the net it would get confiscated by Customs when it arrived in this country?

[/ QUOTE ]

are YOU aware that you can buy hallucinogenic mushrooms online, marijuana seeds, opium poppies and countless other contraband that aren't confiscated by US customs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Links?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for a good laugh amidst an grueling month.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not kidding. i've drank poppy tea that was made from poppies purchased over the internet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will you pm me the link /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Lou Krieger]

[ QUOTE ]
And why would the U.S. care if Antigua violates U.S. intellectual property or otherwise imposes countervailing sanctions on the U.S.? The U.S. economy is so huge in comparison to Antigua's that that effect on the U.S. would be marginally above zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right as far as it goes, but Antigua could impact the US if they decided not to honor copyright agreements and allowed firms to set up shop there to sell pirated software.

That's a tough position to take. More likely is that Antigua would seek support from other nations with an ax to grind on this issue. If the UK decides to lend it's economic muscle and clout to trade sanctions, then the US would feel it economically as well as in the public relations arena.

And with the decrease in values of online gaming stocks in the UK, and a pissed off group of shareholders who saw 60 percent or more of the value of their online gaming investments disappear in one or two days, there's probably a critical mass of investors up in arms right now.

I think the possibility of the UK standing four-square behind Antigua in this issue looks pretty good.

[whangarei]

I was holding out hope that a WTO decision would be beneficial in curtailing the UIGEA, but from this article from the Daily Standard it seems that running afoul of the WTO with little repercussions is pretty standard. Is this the correct conlusion from this article?

Standard article (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/782lsrqz.asp)

[BufordD]

NTIGUAN MINISTER EXPRESSES SHOCK AND DISMAY AT US ONLINE GAMBLING MEASURE

Antigua tried to work amicably with US trade representatives, says minister

Newly returned to Antigua from a mission to persuade officials to accept the WTO's anti-US ruling on Internet gambling, the Antiguan minister of finance, Dr. Errol Cort says he is shocked and dismayed at Congressional actions in approving the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006.

Cort commented: "It is remarkable that on the heels of our visit, during the course of which we highlighted the desire of Antigua to amicably work together with the United States Government in ensuring the safe delivery of these services to consumers in America, that Congress should choose to further protect their remote domestic industry at the cost of countries such as Antigua and Barbuda."

While expanding domestic opportunities for legal Internet gaming through exemptions, the new legislation effectively bans all international and inter-state online gaming financial transactions by making it illegal for banks and credit card firms to make payments to such internet operations, says the minister.

Dr Cort's delegation held a series of meetings with representatives of the US Department of State, the US Trade Representative, the Department of Justice and with Members of Congress, in an attempt to resolve the impasse over the American government's refusal to comply with a WTO ruling.

Antigua-based operators are thought to account for 25 percent of the estimated $6 billion wagered online by American gamblers every year.

Apart from the new legislation, Antigua has been alarmed by other recent developments such as the June 1st indictment against BetonSports, effectively shutting down the company which ran its US internet business from Costa Rica and Antigua, and the attempted extradition levelled at the chairman of Sportingbet, Peter Dicks, by the Louisiana authorities, who accused him of "gambling by computer", thereby violating the state's morality laws.

Non-US commentators almost unanimously see the legislation as blatantly protectionist and hypocritical, and note that it should probably be seen as political in nature, given the up-coming mid-term Congressional elections.

"This baldly protectionist legislation, tacked on to a major security bill at the last possible minute, is as contrary to the decision of the WTO in our case as can possibly be imagined," said lawyer Mark Mendel, who leads Antigua's WTO legal team. "Expanding domestic remote gambling while at the same time further impeding our operators the right to provide these services - which the United States committed to do under the WTO agreements - is almost impossible to comprehend."

[BufordD]

Meanwhile, the World Trade Organization is expected to also look askance at Congress’ handiwork.

The tiny twin-island nation of Antigua and Barbuda hauled the United States before the international tribunal a few years ago and last year prevailed in its claim that the U.S. legally embraces online interstate gambling on horse racing but prohibits offshore cyber bookies, poker rooms and others from selling their gambling wares to U.S. bettors.

The matter is before a WTO compliance panel, and a ruling is expected next year.

The U.S. is running out of appellate places to hide from a very embarrassing public spanking by the WTO. Antigua’s Texas-based attorney was smirking last week.

“While the adoption of this new bill perhaps marks a low point in fair trade for developing countries such as Antigua and Barbuda, it is certainly going to make our case at the WTO even easier than it already was,” said Mark Mendel.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/15718839.htm

[Botchman]

[ QUOTE ]
This may fall inline with my theory of US trying to premptively crush Europena market before going in themselves. If they know they will have to comply with the WTO and legalize here, why not try to destroy competing markets before propping up Sand.com, or Harrahs.com.

[censored] sneaky bastards.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking something along these lines as well, if the US does spit in the WTO's face, which it would be doing if it doesnt comply with this ruling, there would be alot of international pressure, as other countries would be taking the US doesnt comply why the hell should we stance.
I believe this should be an angle that is pushed very hard. The US is callin for WTO sanctions right now on a couple of countries all along while they ignore other WTO rulings??? I think if Britian could get on board in this case, which they just lost billions of dollars and should be actively pursuing the WTO angle they can pressure the US into Regulation/Taxation of the industry.

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
Standard article (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/782lsrqz.asp)

[/ QUOTE ] That article is full of erroneous information; on par for the Weekly Standard. For instance, and not to address anything re:gambling in that article, China (and Japan) are basically single-handedly propping up the American dollar. They have no role in devaluation of the dollar rather the current administration's decision to go into exceptional debt to encourage spending (largely in housing) is the reason the US dollar has such a low value. Because we are at our least economically healthy in at least two decades.

[Richas]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This may fall inline with my theory of US trying to premptively crush Europena market before going in themselves. If they know they will have to comply with the WTO and legalize here, why not try to destroy competing markets before propping up Sand.com, or Harrahs.com.

[censored] sneaky bastards.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking something along these lines as well, if the US does spit in the WTO's face, which it would be doing if it doesnt comply with this ruling, there would be alot of international pressure, as other countries would be taking the US doesnt comply why the hell should we stance.
I believe this should be an angle that is pushed very hard. The US is callin for WTO sanctions right now on a couple of countries all along while they ignore other WTO rulings??? I think if Britian could get on board in this case, which they just lost billions of dollars and should be actively pursuing the WTO angle they can pressure the US into Regulation/Taxation of the industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

As per the "Antigua may work with UK firms to challenge law (article)" thread a way to do this is to contact the EU - complaining as a US citizen that you want to do business with the EU/Antigua companies (lower rake, better choice of games, regulated sites.......etc etc) but the US is preventing you, ask the EU comissioner to champion your cause, he can use US requests as ammunition against the US gov position. At the least it will help push it up the agenda. His contact details are here.

http://ec.europa.eu/commission_barroso/mandelson/index_en.htm

The WTO really should be outraged that after the WTO found against these laws the US response was to pass a bill saying no change at all but more enforcement measures. It really is a spit in the face.

[CountingMyOuts]

[ QUOTE ]
If the UK decides to lend it's economic muscle and clout to trade sanctions, then the US would feel it economically as well as in the public relations arena.

And with the decrease in values of online gaming stocks in the UK, and a pissed off group of shareholders who saw 60 percent or more of the value of their online gaming investments disappear in one or two days, there's probably a critical mass of investors up in arms right now.

I think the possibility of the UK standing four-square behind Antigua in this issue looks pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with this. Want to spur someone into action, hit them where it hurts, the pocketbook. I can't imagine the UK is happy about losing billions of dollars in market value because of this "law".

[LozColbert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Standard article (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/782lsrqz.asp)

[/ QUOTE ] That article is full of erroneous information; on par for the Weekly Standard. For instance, and not to address anything re:gambling in that article, China (and Japan) are basically single-handedly propping up the American dollar. They have no role in devaluation of the dollar rather the current administration's decision to go into exceptional debt to encourage spending (largely in housing) is the reason the US dollar has such a low value. Because we are at our least economically healthy in at least two decades.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't the politics forum, so if you're going to making absurdly biased statements, perhaps you should take them over there.

[MagCFO]

unfortunitely, there's no way the US is going to allow the WTO to dictate what's legal in the US and what's not.

If IRAN insisted on being able to sell RGP's over the internet to US customers, the WTO couldn't make that legal, could they? It's the same premise with online poker. I don't agree with it, but no other country or organization is going to be able to force the US to do anything.

This WTO thing help one bit. We just need a change in the house and senate and a good study on regulation.

[Jimmy The Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
unfortunitely, there's no way the US is going to allow the WTO to dictate what's legal in the US and what's not.


If IRAN insisted on being able to sell RGP's over the internet to US customers, the WTO couldn't make that legal, could they? It's the same premise with online poker. I don't agree with it, but no other country or organization is going to be able to force the US to do anything.


[/ QUOTE ]

The first paragraph is probably true -- at least, it will be true until Antigua starts churning out region-free DVDs and Coca-Cola syrup. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

The second paragraph is FUD masquerading as hyperbole. No one in the United States can legally buy a rocket-propelled grenade; consequently, the US would not violate trade laws by banning their import. To complete the i-gaming analogy, if the US criminalized all forms of internet gaming (including horse betting, lotteries, and fantasy sports), then it could also ban offshore wagering, and Antigua wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

But the carve-outs exist; and their existence has destroyed the US defense against Antigua's WTO suit. Internet gaming is legal in some forms, but only via US-owned sites; you can't legally bet on the Kentucky Derby through Pinnacle or WSEX. Regardless of the legislators' intents, they've created a legal barrier to trade -- and that position should be indefensible before the WTO.