Why not just get an overseas bank account?

[palman]

People are posting all these elaborate ways to transfer money, but why not simply sign up for a bank account overseas and have that set up with neteller/firepay? Then you simply wire from one bank account to another.

The bank overseas isn't monitoring gaming, and the transfer from one bank to another won't have any gaming flags for US banks.

I know little about this, but surely somewhere you can both sign up for an account overseas online and be able to wire money online or even write a check to yourself.

[furyshade]

that isnt the problem, it isnt hard for a dedicated player to deposit, but the average fish wont spend the necessary time setting up an offshore account jsut to play poker, therein greatly decreasing the influx of american poker money

[leatherass]

That's exactly what I have been telling everyone. There's no need to pack your bags and move to Canada or Europe. As long as they're not going after individual people it doesn't matter where you play your poker.

[palman]

Many years ago I thought the average player wouldn't go through the hassle of setting up a neteller account. I always had to transfer funds to friends and they'd give me cash, because they didnt want to go through the hassle. If there was a quick an easy way to create another bank account, I don't see how it's much different than creating a neteller account. Heck, there are tons and TONS of people who don't trust neteller/firepay. Everyone who starts up with poker wonders if it's safe. I bet many people might actually find this a better option.

[RacersEdge]

A foregn account seem like it would work unless Neteller started screening for SSN or whatever the equivalent is in other countries. Then you would need an actual contact overseas.

[DMoogle]

But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

[Gugel]

The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

[yad]

[ QUOTE ]
But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

[palman]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times was this said about neteller when it first started? No one wanted to bother doing it, now it's the backbone of the current industry.

[DMoogle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

[/ QUOTE ]
How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not too worried about this, but then again, I'm a SSNL player right now. There will be both losing AND winning players that stop playing, just more losing than winning. But the thing is, this doesn't affect the world, it only affects the U.S., and there are still plenty of fish in other countries. Yes, the games will certainly be tougher, but I don't think they will be nearly as much as you imply.

[palman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

[/ QUOTE ]
How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe 99% of netellers business is gaming. The banks won't be fooled here, they'll just ban neteller. Maryland has already banned neteller for years.

[DMoogle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

[/ QUOTE ]
How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe 99% of netellers business is gaming. The banks won't be fooled here, they'll just ban neteller. Maryland has already banned neteller for years.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but 99% isn't 100%. Also, I don't think Maryland specifically banned Neteller, they banned all banks that do not have an office in Maryland.

EDIT: And the Maryland banks didn't ban Neteller, Maryland did. Neteller abides by not accepting any transactions from there.

[iceman5]

One thing is perfectly clear to me. That is that nobody here knows what the hell will be illegal and what wont. Youre all just speculating and guessing.

Most think withdrawals are legal
Most think deposits are illegal

Some think transfers between your bank and Neteller are illegal (which happens to contradict the fact that withdrawals are suppossedly legal still)

Numerous times Ive gotten checks from Neteller (instead of direct dspoiting to my bank account). Nowhere on the check does it indicate its from Neteller or any gambling entity.

Can your bank still tell its from Neteller from some code?

[Ron Burgundy]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing is perfectly clear to me. That is that nobody here knows what the hell will be illegal and what wont. Youre all just speculating and guessing.

[/ QUOTE ]

[vinyard]

[ QUOTE ]
Can your bank still tell its from Neteller from some code?

[/ QUOTE ] Look at your checkbook. See that series of 9 numbers before the first gap starting at the bottom left. That's the code, unique to each bank, financial institution etc.

[iceman5]

If Neteller is banned, how are you planning on getting your money out of there?

[bekman]

Neteller has branched out to buying up actual banks in China and other countries in Asia. They are a legitimate institution now that they have acquired these existing banks. They just didn't bring it to US because there are already too many banking institutions here. They also bought a company that deals with ATM's, that is why they have the Neteller Debit Card. They will figure out some way of making sure that the transactions continue. It's not like they are some Columbian Drug Outfit that also happens to sell coffee, LOL.

[Poker_Hoar]

The problem is Neteller to gaming sites transactions. And that is the only problem.

In a court Neteller would be asked, "why did you sign a contract with an illegal internet gambling company to facilitate deposits for players?"

Then the gavel will hammer down and the Neteller exec will be pwned.

[Phil123]

[ QUOTE ]
In a court Neteller would be asked, "why did you sign a contract with an illegal internet gambling company to facilitate deposits for players?"

Then the gavel will hammer down and the Neteller exec will be pwned.

[/ QUOTE ] Why the Neteller exec will be sat in one of his offices outside the USA sticking 2 fingers up at the US government. As long as he doesn't enter the USA then there is no problem. You guys from across the pond seem to forget your laws do noy apply outside your borders.

[hakeem]

When I lived in the UK and had a Neteller account I was able to link it to my UK bank account in much the same way I do here in the US. It seems like the easiest way will be to have a UK bank acct with a UK Neteller acct and operate that way, wiring funds from my UK bank acct to my US acct as needed (or just using checks/visa).

But as everyone has mentioned already, the 'hardcore' guys getting money online and playing isn't really the issue.

[Phil123]

If you have a UK bank you don't even need Neteller. nearly all the online sites let you deposit from a UK bank using your debit card and just refund any withdrawals to the debit card used to deposit

[YouKnobber]

Also, foreign Neteller means dealing with proxies/shell accounts cause they lock your account if your IP address is not in the same country.

But like you say, you get a foreign bank account and you wont need neteller. That still doesnt solve the problem of the casual player not going to those lengths though.

[MadTiger]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

[/ QUOTE ]
How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe 99% of netellers business is gaming. The banks won't be fooled here, they'll just ban neteller. Maryland has already banned neteller for years.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but 99% isn't 100%. Also, I don't think Maryland specifically banned Neteller, they banned all banks that do not have an office in Maryland.

EDIT: And the Maryland banks didn't ban Neteller, Maryland did. Neteller abides by not accepting any transactions from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maryland "banned" them in the same sense that my corporation is "banned" fromd doing business there. Neither of us filled out the paper work and agreed to pay the 7% tax. Many states don't chase down corporations from other states (and countries!) to try to get this dough, but I guess Maryland does.

[Colonel Kataffy]

[ QUOTE ]
Numerous times Ive gotten checks from Neteller (instead of direct dspoiting to my bank account). Nowhere on the check does it indicate its from Neteller

[/ QUOTE ]

This can't possibly be right.

[Silent1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Numerous times Ive gotten checks from Neteller (instead of direct dspoiting to my bank account). Nowhere on the check does it indicate its from Neteller

[/ QUOTE ]

This can't possibly be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Seems to me the check could be drawn on any international bank where Neteller has an account. There is abs no need for the check to say Neteller.

[excession]

Actually what neteller is likely to do (if it doesn't already) is simply issue banker's drafts to settle accounts - in the UK if you have money lodged at a financial institution there are two sorts of 'check' you can draw..

One is the usual one drawn on the account held in your name with that financial institution - of course you sign that one and the details on it will show which account it comes from - if you don't have sufficient funds in the account it will bounce.

The second is a banker's draft - which is a 'check' issued by the financial institution itself and for which that institution is liable - it would just be a draft issued by say RBS pls, which woukdn't indicate the customer name on it.

In UK domestic use the main point of these is that banker's drafts don't have to 'clear' - they are backed with the full funds of the issuing institution and so can't bounce unless that institution itself goes bankrupt - so they are treated (if issued by a reputable bank) as being as good as cash..

So if neteller just issues its payments to US customers in that form it's going to be very very hard for any US bank to know that it indicates a gambling transaction.

[SmackinYaUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many times was this said about neteller when it first started? No one wanted to bother doing it, now it's the backbone of the current industry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller really just felt like paypal though. Setting up a foreign bank sounds a lot more shady to the average joe, even though its the same thing.

What would be great is if some company filled that void and made it feel like neteller but was really just setting up a UK or wherever bank account. Actually sounds like a pretty good business idea...wish I had the means to give it ago.

[excession]

money laundering requirements are pretty strict in UK for new bank accounts - you would need to produce a lot of ID and I'm not sure if faxed/scanned copies would do..

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a court Neteller would be asked, "why did you sign a contract with an illegal internet gambling company to facilitate deposits for players?"

Then the gavel will hammer down and the Neteller exec will be pwned.

[/ QUOTE ] Why the Neteller exec will be sat in one of his offices outside the USA sticking 2 fingers up at the US government. As long as he doesn't enter the USA then there is no problem. You guys from across the pond seem to forget your laws do noy apply outside your borders.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you forget about extradition treaties. IF the law doesnt violate international law or treaties, a transaction intitiated on a US based computer and executed overseas is a criminal act IN the US. (Eg the arrest of the betsports exec. for accepting bets offshore that were placed from a US computer. While mechanically they waited till he was here, it was still extraditable if his situs was in a country with an extradition treaty.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But Neteller IS an overseas bank account. Can somebody explain why it is going to be illegal to deposit with Neteller?

[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be illegal to deposit to neteller, as i understand. what will be illegal is to transfer between neteller and your US bank account.

[/ QUOTE ]
How? Neteller has "authentic" (i.e. non-poker related uses). How is transfering from/to my bank account to/from Neteller going to be illegal any more than some Swiss bank account?

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not too worried about this, but then again, I'm a SSNL player right now. There will be both losing AND winning players that stop playing, just more losing than winning. But the thing is, this doesn't affect the world, it only affects the U.S., and there are still plenty of fish in other countries. Yes, the games will certainly be tougher, but I don't think they will be nearly as much as you imply.

[/ QUOTE ]


It doesn't matter that neteller has 'authentic' uses also.
What matters is that neteller DOES PROVIDE transactions to online-gambling places.
Therefore it is one of the money-transfer options that is not considered acceptable.

That's my interpretation of it anyway.

Now, whether the banks and U.S. govt can actually do anything to stop transactions from neteller remains to be seen.
Also what remains to be seen is whether neteller will voluntarily cut-off U.S. customers like they did with Maryland customers.

To my mind, they hopefully take a mindset that they don't have anything to lose anyway by continuing to accept U.S. customers even if the govt doesn't want them to.

One issue though is that they will look like more of a rogue business that is voluntarily breaking the law of this country. That wouldn't look good to their stock-holders.


So a lot of this is kind of up to neteller and what they want to do about it.
If they continue to accept U.S. customers then it should be pretty easy to make whatever transactions you want I suspect.

[Copernicus]

exactly. Which is why neteller's announcement may be more important than any site's (unless the sites just rollover, of course)

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a UK bank you don't even need Neteller. nearly all the online sites let you deposit from a UK bank using your debit card and just refund any withdrawals to the debit card used to deposit

[/ QUOTE ]

which works really well until you need to withdraw more money from the poker site than the original amount you used to fund the account with.

i.e. you deposit $100 with your debit card from the UK - and you play goot and win $1000 - you can only refund $100 of that $1000 back to the card.

To withdraw the remainder you need Neteller or similar, or request a paper cheque from the poker site (which takes aaaaaaages)

[Phil123]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you forget about extradition treaties. IF the law doesnt violate international law or treaties, a transaction intitiated on a US based computer and executed overseas is a criminal act IN the US. (Eg the arrest of the betsports exec. for accepting bets offshore that were placed from a US computer. While mechanically they waited till he was here, it was still extraditable if his situs was in a country with an extradition treaty.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe, But say the UK government gets a request from the US to extradite a UK citizen that hasn't broken any law in the UK and has never set foot on American soil. And the US want to arrest him for a crime in America. I just can't see the UK government allowing the extradition. Which is exactly why the US waited for the Betsport exec to set foot in the USA.

[PairTheBoard]

So if a UK bank that transfers funds to Party Poker also has US customer accounts it will be illegal for US Banks to transfer funds to that UK Bank?

PairTheBoard

[excession]

er actually Blair just forced thru such a law as part of his helping Bush with the 'war on terror' - no need to show 'just cause' - the UK just rolls over and hands em to US - of course there is no reciprocity - so to extradite a US citizen the UK still has to show 'just cause'

mind you that law won't last a month after Blair is gone ..

of course it has only been used to date on white collar crimes - and they can just frame it as tax evasion to get round the issue that it's not an offence in the UK

[Phil123]

[ QUOTE ]
er actually Blair just forced thru such a law as part of his helping Bush with the 'war on terror' - no need to show 'just cause' - the UK just rolls over and hands em to US - of course there is no reciprocity - so to extradite a US citizen the UK still has to show 'just cause'

mind you that law won't last a month after Blair is gone ..

of course it has only been used to date on white collar crimes - and they can just frame it as tax evasion to get round the issue that it's not an offence in the UK

[/ QUOTE ]
Well that's bad news indeed. I must admit Blair is Bush's lap dog. I can see the USA/UK being the modern day equivelent of the USSR in the not too distant future, do as your told or disapear never to be seen again,all these new laws seem to be the thin end of the wedge to me.

[arcticfox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you have a UK bank you don't even need Neteller. nearly all the online sites let you deposit from a UK bank using your debit card and just refund any withdrawals to the debit card used to deposit

[/ QUOTE ]

which works really well until you need to withdraw more money from the poker site than the original amount you used to fund the account with.

i.e. you deposit $100 with your debit card from the UK - and you play goot and win $1000 - you can only refund $100 of that $1000 back to the card.

To withdraw the remainder you need Neteller or similar, or request a paper cheque from the poker site (which takes aaaaaaages)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've deposited on 2 separate poker sites using my debit card and won money on both of them and withdrawn the whole lot to my debit account. Are you referring to one specific site here as its certainly not been the case when I've used debit cards, although most sites I've always used neteller on.

[munkey]

[ QUOTE ]


er actually Blair just forced thru such a law as part of his helping Bush with the 'war on terror' - no need to show 'just cause' - the UK just rolls over and hands em to US - of course there is no reciprocity - so to extradite a US citizen the UK still has to show 'just cause'



[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean the treaty used to extradite the 'Natwest three'
the US ratified it reciproally according to todays paper under heavy diplomatic pressure /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Hoi Polloi]

[ QUOTE ]
that isnt the problem, it isnt hard for a dedicated player to deposit, but the average fish wont spend the necessary time setting up an offshore account jsut to play poker, therein greatly decreasing the influx of american poker money

[/ QUOTE ]

This is indeed the worrying impact that the bill will have if implemented effectively.

[Phil123]

[ QUOTE ]

which works really well until you need to withdraw more money from the poker site than the original amount you used to fund the account with.

i.e. you deposit $100 with your debit card from the UK - and you play goot and win $1000 - you can only refund $100 of that $1000 back to the card.

To withdraw the remainder you need Neteller or similar, or request a paper cheque from the poker site (which takes aaaaaaages)

[/ QUOTE ] All sites I play on alow you to withdraw more than the deposit. I have deposited $25 to a site to play a tournament before then cashed out $3500 the same day after I won. All back to my debit card.

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with that is that the fish won't bother doing it. The games will quickly dry up. You'll be playing only against other professionals.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think the Europe, Asian, other non USA countries are nothing but pros?

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Sarge85]

[ QUOTE ]
If Neteller is banned, how are you planning on getting your money out of there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Neteller does have a checkbook....

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[I_C_ALL]

As a US citizen, can I fly to UK, open a bank account there with my US passport and get a debit card like you to use at pokerrooms/casinos/sportsbooks or do you need to be a UK resident? Do I need a "PO Box" or physical address in UK? Can I do the same for Bahamas? Caymans?

[AAAA]

the problem is that us players make up a huge percentage of the total player pool...the us sharks will find a way to continue playing, but the us fish will cut back or cut out completely and play at play money tables.

one friend mentioned that he thought poker sites might start charging monthly service fees and then start paying prizes to winning players.

perhaps that would be allowed? you can determine the value of your tournament by how much "service fee" you paid?

[Dustin M.]

[ QUOTE ]
one friend mentioned that he thought poker sites might start charging monthly service fees and then start paying prizes to winning players.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an excellent plan...if you want 90% of your customers to dump you.

[Phil123]

[ QUOTE ]
As a US citizen, can I fly to UK, open a bank account there with my US passport and get a debit card like you to use at pokerrooms/casinos/sportsbooks or do you need to be a UK resident? Do I need a "PO Box" or physical address in UK? Can I do the same for Bahamas? Caymans?

[/ QUOTE ]I guess if they let you open an account you will receive a debit card with the account. You want what is called a current account. You will receive a check book and debit card if they let you open the account. A guy from the USA said on this site that he just walked in to a UK bank and used his US passport as I.D. and they let him have an account. It's just a long way to come though if there's any chance they won't let you have one.
Here is a list of some of the UK banks I guess you could contact some of them and ask if it's possible for them to open you a current account without having to visit the UK.
http://www.uknetguide.co.uk/Finance/Banks_and_Banking/

I also found this http://www.offshore.hsbc.com/1/2/international/current-accounts/offshore-bank-account It's an offshore account with HSBC who are a reputable bank. Their current account comes with a debit card and you can have an account in Pound's, dollar's or Euro's. The only snag is you need to maintain a balance of at least £5000 or $10,000. As I say the account is offshore on the Island of Jersey, which is UK owned. From looking at their website you can fill in your application form online then print it, sign it and send it off, all look pretty simple. This could be a good possibility, hope this helps.

[emptyshell]

I imagine the banking regulations would disallow banks to accept transfers from entities that are circumventing U.S. laws, such as would be the case with Neteller, even if Neteller has other legit business. Doing something legal doesn't cancel out illegal activity.