Don't worry US Players, Online poker will be fine [Archive]

dwalker012

09-30-2006, 01:07 PM

Look at the sites like Party Poker, Poker Stars, Full Tilt, and etc. Do you think they don't have a backup plan available? They would be foolish to sit back and have no access to US players. The first site to make a workaround for this law will reap the benefits. Trust me the lawyers and others for these sites are working on a way to keep US players playing. Don't panic just let things shake out and continue to play poker.

Fishy McDonk

09-30-2006, 01:11 PM

Be happy.

Mossberg

09-30-2006, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The first site to make a workaround for this law will find themselves sitting in jail and with heavy fines.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

You are all in denial. Yesterday's events were pretty much the WORST CASE SCENARIO as far as this law goes, and gov't officials aren't going to put all the time and effort into this bill, if they aren't going to be willing/able to enforce it effectively. To any full-time players who are comforting themselves with the thought of finding a way to play in a post-ban world, you're screwed. It will no longer be profitable enough to make it worth your while to be committing a crime. If I were American, I wouldn't feel comfortable keeping my bankroll, or even a portion of it online in a post-ban world. It sounds like an -EV proposition to me.

I don't mean to be a party-pooper, but things aren't good.

betgo

09-30-2006, 01:35 PM

You are not an American, so you assume the law is the law. Things don't exactly work that way in this country. There are always ways to get around everything. Still, this is pretty close to the worse case scenario, and it could have a severe impact on professional players.

MrBlueNose

09-30-2006, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Look at the sites like Party Poker, Poker Stars, Full Tilt, and etc. Do you think they don't have a backup plan available? They would be foolish to sit back and have no access to US players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering they did practically nothing to protest the bill, I have no problem with doubting that they have any sort of backup plan.

betgo

09-30-2006, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look at the sites like Party Poker, Poker Stars, Full Tilt, and etc. Do you think they don't have a backup plan available? They would be foolish to sit back and have no access to US players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering they did practically nothing to protest the bill, I have no problem with doubting that they have any sort of backup plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know the sites didn't put a big effort into trying to stop the bill?

Bork

09-30-2006, 01:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Look at the sites like Party Poker, Poker Stars, Full Tilt, and etc. Do you think they don't have a backup plan available? They would be foolish to sit back and have no access to US players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering they did practically nothing to protest the bill, I have no problem with doubting that they have any sort of backup plan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't one protest less if one had an outstanding backup plan?

MrBlueNose

09-30-2006, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

How do you know the sites didn't put a big effort into trying to stop the bill?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they didn't? They didn't attempt to increase public awareness of this, they didn't try to keep players informed of anything that was going on? And having spoken with numerous poker room & affiliate managers prior to and after the bill was approved, it was obvious that their main plan was just to "hope it goes away".

MrBlueNose

09-30-2006, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't one protest less if one had an outstanding backup plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see how they could have an "outstanding backup plan" when they have absolutely no idea what regulations are actually going to be made.

LesJ

09-30-2006, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and gov't officials aren't going to put all the time and effort into this bill, if they aren't going to be willing/able to enforce it effectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

There weren't that many politicians that spent that much time on this legislation. The vast majority of them could have cared less. MOST of the ones who pushed for it were behind it simply for the politics of the situation (winning conservative Christian voters in future elections). There are a couple of individuals who sincerely believe this is good policy (Klye, Leach, prob Goodlatte). It was pushed when it was primarily (nice choice of words, eh) for politcal reasons and now that is has passed, the politicians who pushed it will have absolutely ZERO amount of care in how it is administered. They can say they banned interent gambling. . . that is all they cared about. Even if it is unenforceable, they believe it will help electorally.

MicroBob

09-30-2006, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]

The first site to make a workaround for this law will find themselves sitting in jail and with heavy fines.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it unlikely that they will actually extradite Dikshit and other site owners/operators/managers and get them to the U.S. to stand trial.

It seems most of them would also be smart enough to not step foot on U.S. soil if they assist U.S. players in gambling.

So I fail to see how any of them will be going to jail or facing heavy fines.
They'll just be happily sitting in Gibraltar or India or somewhere counting their money and figuring out more ways to get the Americans (and other customers internationally) to their site.

I do think that if they continue to accept bets from Americans AND if the U.S. govt or DOJ throws a fit about it, then I do wonder if that could somehow affect their standing on the London Stock Exchange if England doesn't want it to be an issue regarding their friendly relations.

That's a bit of a reach though. Just something that has occured to me.

Also - very much disagree with this being a 'worst-case scenario' since it seems it is still okay to actually PLAY poker. Just a bit more difficult to fund.

I definitely think it could have been much, much worse.

JOHNY CA$H

09-30-2006, 02:08 PM

Good attitude, and I hope your right. But I don't think sitting around and doing nothing is the right move, either.

wall_st

09-30-2006, 02:17 PM

This bill certainly could have been a lot worse. I agree with many that the bill was passed mainly for posterity reasons and the intentions of enforcement are just more so that they have a law on record if there any sort of issue.

This reminds me a lot of when congress passed legisltation against downloading online music (which is a much bigger crime than igambling imo). Sure napster was eliminated but it was also a US company spitting in the face of the RIAA, congress HAD to go after it. When you consider the lack of action against foreign sites like allofmp3dotcom who are profiting illegally you have to wonder how the US is going to handle foreign igambling companies. My opinion means nothing but i think we have more like 2 years than 270 days before we see any real action.

yoursmine

09-30-2006, 04:47 PM

One thought is that the online sites knew they would have ways around it and rather than waste their resources defeating the bill (which it seems was destined pass anyway) they are preparing a legal challenge. If they fought every little piece of the bill before it became law the bill could be modified to close up the loop holes. Now that its out there they can take it apart piece by piece and hopefully mount a serious challenge to it or possibly even tie it up in court so long that GovCo gives up.
Thank God for our incredibly convuluted legal system

JPFisher55

09-30-2006, 04:53 PM

I agree that this law will affect the US professional players, who collectively are receiving millions in endorsement deals, far more than the online poker player.

AJFenix

09-30-2006, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
, and gov't officials aren't going to put all the time and effort into this bill, if they aren't going to be willing/able to enforce it effectively

[/ QUOTE ]

Frist was the one with a hard-on for this. He did it for the GOP votes. Now that he got it passed and his mission is successful, I don't know how much of a hard-on there will be for enforcing this. It certainly isn't a priority.

futuredoc85

09-30-2006, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]

You are all in denial. Yesterday's events were pretty much the WORST CASE SCENARIO as far as this law goes, and gov't officials aren't going to put all the time and effort into this bill, if they aren't going to be willing/able to enforce it effectively. To any full-time players who are comforting themselves with the thought of finding a way to play in a post-ban world, you're screwed.

I don't mean to be a party-pooper, but things aren't good.

[/ QUOTE ]

inter-racial marriage is illegal in the state of alabama. i am personally acquainted with plenty of inter-racial couples and know of none that have been prosecuted.

Mossberg

09-30-2006, 05:08 PM

LOL

sublime

09-30-2006, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Look at the sites like Party Poker, Poker Stars, Full Tilt, and etc. Do you think they don't have a backup plan available? They would be foolish to sit back and have no access to US players. The first site to make a workaround for this law will reap the benefits. Trust me the lawyers and others for these sites are working on a way to keep US players playing. Don't panic just let things shake out and continue to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i hate to blindly back a guy with two posts, but i think hes right.

sublime

09-30-2006, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How do you know the sites didn't put a big effort into trying to stop the bill?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they didn't? They didn't attempt to increase public awareness of this, they didn't try to keep players informed of anything that was going on? And having spoken with numerous poker room & affiliate managers prior to and after the bill was approved, it was obvious that their main plan was just to "hope it goes away".

[/ QUOTE ]

or perhaps they realized that increasing public awareness was a bad thing and to just have contingency plans in place was more important.

pifhluk

09-30-2006, 05:16 PM

My opinion: The banks are not going to regulate this, it is not their job to be the moral police. Nor are they going to be willing to put up the $ to determine what is and isnt a gaming transaction. I just can't see this law being enforced.

Not to mention the exceptions for horse racing, fantasy sports and lotteries. If that doesn't screem hypocracy I dont know what does.

The law just flat out makes no sense, so providing there is even a little bit of common sense left in our country (which sometimes I doubt) online poker will be fine, otherwise Im moving to Europe.

Sarge85

09-30-2006, 06:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How do you know the sites didn't put a big effort into trying to stop the bill?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they didn't? They didn't attempt to increase public awareness of this, they didn't try to keep players informed of anything that was going on? And having spoken with numerous poker room & affiliate managers prior to and after the bill was approved, it was obvious that their main plan was just to "hope it goes away".

[/ QUOTE ]

or perhaps they realized that increasing public awareness was a bad thing and to just have contingency plans in place was more important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this much more likely. I would find it incredibly hard to believe that the big sites were just going to roll over. Maybe they figure the best move was to wait for something to pass, before they lauched their counter strategy - why tip the enemy what yout thinking right? Make them make the first move that your ready for, and then counter attack with something that they aren't ready for.

I hope that is what happening Monday, it sounds like rumblings are already in place.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Silent1

09-30-2006, 06:33 PM

How about the following.

There is a "front" shop in Germany called Flowers-are-us or some such thing, which sells flowers and other stuff, and also lets you maintain an account. You fund them using U.S. Postal orders from the post office (snail mail, I know).

From Flowers-are-us, you can direct your money to some gaming site. So getting your money back, involves shifting it back to Flowers-are-us, and asking them to make out a German postal order and send to you.

Is this too primitive? I don't see how the USPS is going to be able to afford to do all kinds of monitoring for recipients of postal orders --- at least not without jacking up postage stamps to $3.00 etc.

Is this too primitive an approach? Of course Neteller/Firepay could be involved.

Opium is illegal. Yet all kinds of people manage to get opium out of places (Afghanistan?) and people get paid.

If there is a demand for gambling, providers will find a way to satisfy your demand .... it wll take them two days. After all, at the other end of the demand is your money, and money always finds a way to get to its destination.

Ask Bush. He is sending Billions of our tax dollars into Afghanistan and Iraq. Some of this money ends up in his and his friends' oil-related accounts (think Carlyle group etc, and people who run defense companies) and some ends up in the opium world.

matrix

09-30-2006, 06:49 PM

I agree with the OP here.

US online poker has hit a bump in the road - inside of a few weeks I confidently predict that there will be workarounds in place to allow any US player who wants to a means to fund their poker accounts legally.

Look at it this way - Party/Stars/Neteller et al make an ENORMOUS amount of money from their US clientele.

Do you seriously think that they are just going to wave goodbye to all of that money because a bunch of corrupt politicians waved their arms about - and some jumped up President of some country that has very little to do with the laws on the statute books in Gibraltar say, signed some bill that makes it a little harder presently for US casual players (i.e. most of the fish) to easily deposit funds at their gambling site of choice??

Frist and others involved have done this to score brownie points. Before too long some company somewhere will legally find a way to allow casual US players to easily fund their poker accounts, simply because the demand is so high.

If US people want to snort cocaine or mainline opium then they find a way to do it, if people want to play poker on the internet they will find a way.

I think the biggest impact this bill will have is it will dent the amount of casual US players for a short time (until someone somewhere figures out a way around it) then it will back to almost business as usual.

FastForward7

09-30-2006, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If US people want to snort cocaine or mainline opium then they find a way to do it, if people want to play poker on the internet they will find a way.

[/ QUOTE ]

After a nights sleep and some time to ponder this I'm inclined to stop worrying about this. Ask yourself honestly, when was the last time the government was actually able to stop you from doing whatever the hell you wanted? Answer is never. This will most likely be no different.

There will be workarounds, there's just too much money at stake. Most of all from sports betting. Let's just remember that poker is a drop in the bucket compared to that. You don't think they'll find a way?

chicagoY

09-30-2006, 07:23 PM

I couldn't help but think that for ever site quick to ban us, there'd be another which would take their profits for 270 days.

Busted_Flat

09-30-2006, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about the following.

There is a "front" shop in Germany called Flowers-are-us or some such thing, which sells flowers and other stuff, and also lets you maintain an account. You fund them using U.S. Postal orders from the post office (snail mail, I know).

From Flowers-are-us, you can direct your money to some gaming site. So getting your money back, involves shifting it back to Flowers-are-us, and asking them to make out a German postal order and send to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they could just pay you back with flowers.

chicagoY

09-30-2006, 07:28 PM

I hope you're right, but the big sites are made up of people just like everyone else who are terrified of new addresses in Marion or Pelican Bay.

Also, you don't fund opium/whatever from a traceable bank account. i like the egold idea.

chicagoY

09-30-2006, 07:30 PM

I think the sites are in Tony Montana, the world belongs to me, mode and haven't put any effort into planning for the future.

chicagoY

09-30-2006, 07:33 PM

If I were in charge of PR of a site I'd put a slogan up top and pay 2p2 and others to run ads saying they were a haven for US players. Even if they had to back down eventually, think of how much money they'd get from joners like us in the meantime.

09-30-2006, 07:35 PM

I hope all you guys with the positive attitudes are right. It would be a sad sad day in the poker world if there were no more online games.

In all honesty, if the only real outcome of all this hoopla was that the games got a little toughter due to a decreased amount of fish, I would gladly... and I mean GLADLY... accept that.

Albert Moulton

09-30-2006, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the biggest impact this bill will have is it will dent the amount of casual US players for a short time (until someone somewhere figures out a way around it) then it will back to almost business as usual.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. The Federal Governement's position has always been that gambling on line is illegal under the Wire Act (at least I think it's called the "Wire Act"). Now this bill clearly and definitively marks the funding of those "illegal" games as illegal where it was only questionably illegal before.

I think the Bush administration's stand on broadcast indecency is a good gauge of how this very well might play out over the next two years. There will be a few high profile cases like Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction, additional cases like Howard Stern's, and pretty soon players will be like broadcast companys - afraid to air WWII documentaries on PBS because old soldiers use the F-word.

I think once this becomes law, there will start to be some prosecutions and the courts will end up having to clarify if "playing" is ok, as most of this forum contend, or if it is not ok, as the federal government and most congressmen seem to contend. I would be shocked if the courts didn't rule with the government once they balance the existing Wire Act with the intent and language of this one.

chicagoY

09-30-2006, 08:11 PM

I hate to join the pessimism but the government is Mike Tyson and Bruce Lee combined into one. The sites can't fight them. The only thing to hope for is that they don't really enforce it as they'll get distracted by next year's hot perfectionist topic perhaps it will be the War on Nutrasweet.

chicagoY

09-30-2006, 08:12 PM

Pick up a beret for me when you get there.

chicagoY

09-30-2006, 08:18 PM

You should see what it's like in Europe!

goodgrief

09-30-2006, 08:20 PM

Silent, Money laundering is a federal offense and has been for 20 years.

sublime

09-30-2006, 08:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How do you know the sites didn't put a big effort into trying to stop the bill?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they didn't? They didn't attempt to increase public awareness of this, they didn't try to keep players informed of anything that was going on? And having spoken with numerous poker room & affiliate managers prior to and after the bill was approved, it was obvious that their main plan was just to "hope it goes away".

[/ QUOTE ]

or perhaps they realized that increasing public awareness was a bad thing and to just have contingency plans in place was more important.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this much more likely. I would find it incredibly hard to believe that the big sites were just going to roll over. Maybe they figure the best move was to wait for something to pass, before they lauched their counter strategy - why tip the enemy what yout thinking right? Make them make the first move that your ready for, and then counter attack with something that they aren't ready for.

I hope that is what happening Monday, it sounds like rumblings are already in place.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

sarge-

we are not alone in this belief. however we will be in the minority as panicking and thinking the online sites are stupid is much easier to do than sitting back and having a positive outlook.

boomshakalaka

09-30-2006, 08:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You should see what it's like in Europe!

[/ QUOTE ]

umm much better then the facist state that the US is turning into?

goodgrief

09-30-2006, 08:44 PM

Son, what world do you live in that you don't know people who have been jailed, often repeatedly, for their use of cocaine and opiates, even marijuana? There are 400,000 people in jail and prison in American today for possession of a harmless weed. The government stops people from doing what they want every single day. You can't seriously have ever tried to do "whatever you want" if you think they can't and won't stop you. Good Lord.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If US people want to snort cocaine or mainline opium then they find a way to do it, if people want to play poker on the internet they will find a way.

[/ QUOTE ]

After a nights sleep and some time to ponder this I'm inclined to stop worrying about this. Ask yourself honestly, when was the last time the government was actually able to stop you from doing whatever the hell you wanted? Answer is never. This will most likely be no different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Little_Luck

09-30-2006, 08:58 PM

In my state of michigan, its against the law for a man to seduce an unmarried woman, punishable by up to 5 years in jail. Also, men in michigan own their wives hair, by law.

Legislators like to pass laws to feel good about themselves, like they actually did something great, I'm sure most of them don't dive into the minute details to make sure every law they get passed is being enforced.

In South Dakota, its illegal to fall asleep in a cheese factory...

FastForward7

09-30-2006, 09:09 PM

Ooops, I intened my original post for people who could take my comments with a grain of salt and a little commons sense. That's where I screwed up, I should have made it clear.

Also you should pay a little better attention to the English language we've all agreed upon. You're still able to do whatever you want, however, there may be consequences. Or do you really think that nothing that's outright illegal or in a legal grey area happens within the borders of the United States?

Last time I checked I could go bang a hooker and do a line of blow while on the phone with my bookie getting some action on MNF if I felt like it. Nobody's stopping me from doing that. There's the chance I may get in trouble for it if caught but I'm certainly able to take that risk and do so if I'm so inclined.

Anyway, the gist of my original post was things will be fine. There will most likely be a simple legal, or at least not outright illegal, workaround to this. Relax Chicken Little, it will be alright.

[ QUOTE ]
Son, what world do you live in that you don't know people who have been jailed, often repeatedly, for their use of cocaine and opiates, even marijuana? There are 400,000 people in jail and prison in American today for possession of a harmless weed. The government stops people from doing what they want every single day. You can't seriously have ever tried to do "whatever you want" if you think they can't and won't stop you. Good Lord.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If US people want to snort cocaine or mainline opium then they find a way to do it, if people want to play poker on the internet they will find a way.

[/ QUOTE ]

After a nights sleep and some time to ponder this I'm inclined to stop worrying about this. Ask yourself honestly, when was the last time the government was actually able to stop you from doing whatever the hell you wanted? Answer is never. This will most likely be no different.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]