List a major leak

[Jingleheimer]

It might be interesting to see what everyone's major leaks are. Although I'm sure we all have many, list one that you think costs yourself the most money, general circumstances, give a hand example of it, and what you think you need to do to fix it.

I'll start:

Lately I have been hemorraging money raising people who donk bet into me.

$50NL, full stacks.
Hero has Q /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif in CO.
Two limpers to me, I raise to $3. All fold to second limper, who calls.

Pot = $7.25
Flop 952r
Limper bets $4. I raise to $14. Limper pushes.

Sometimes these smallish leads are weak, like underpairs wanting to find out where they are. Evidently this one was intended to make action and induce my raise. Not really used to seeing plays like this at $50NL. I suppose I should just fold this up and go to the next hand, but when it works, it's nice, and I can't let people think they can take pots away from me. But it's pretty expensive when I'm wrong.

What's your expensive leak?

[4_2_it]

Number 1 Leak of SSNLers: Missing Value Bets

It's hard to quantify because it's money you didn't win. Can't measure opportunity cost.

[VS.Goliath.]

I also try to raise donk bets too much.

I get a little too attached to top-pair hands sometimes.

I think I might c-bet a little too much.

I call down too much with less than great odds, especially when people have donked the flop.

I'm making a concious effort to change these things though.

[uminchu]

AT oop,

[kaz2107]

try to bluff villian when i kno he has a made hand such as middle pair or tpxk. also goes with firing 2nd barels too often.

[EMc]

# 2 leak-

FPS. Fancy play syndrome.

[gimmetheloot]

[ QUOTE ]
Number 1 Leak of SSNLers: Missing Value Bets

It's hard to quantify because it's money you didn't win. Can't measure opportunity cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, not just missing bets, but bet sizing.

Also, I hate these types of threads with a passion.

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Number 1 Leak of SSNLers: Missing Value Bets

It's hard to quantify because it's money you didn't win. Can't measure opportunity cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, not just missing bets, but bet sizing.

Also, I hate these types of threads with a passion.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP posted a leak and an example hand, but other posters didnt follow his example. I for one think he started an A-OK thread.

[EMc]

I think this thread would be better if posters posted a common leak and then their proposed solution.

[kaz2107]

[ QUOTE ]
try to bluff villian when i kno he has a made hand such as middle pair or tpxk. also goes with firing 2nd barels too often.

[/ QUOTE ]

fixed for EMC
lately i have been telling myself before i even start up not to bluff and to just play abc because it seems to happen at the begining of a sesh and then after i bluff away a stack or 2 i remeber that bluffing sux and doesnt work and start to tag it up and play abc and have to work my way back to even for tha sesh.

but it seems like when i remend myself of this before i start i play much more abc like from the start and thus have much more success

[EMc]

[ QUOTE ]
# 2 leak-

FPS. Fancy play syndrome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lead by example, so here it goes.

FPS occurs when we see that well, x plan might work when x plan is not the norm. Someone sees a good hand and decides to get all tricky/trappy because he saw ivey do it. I find that when im doing FPS, I sit there and ask myself why I did it, and what I should have done. I then make sure I look at the hand later and evaluate later and see what the better play was.

[mudbuddha]

mistake of c-betting short stacks who will push no matter what.

[censored]

[kleraudio]

two big leaks (.10/.25 NL FR)

#1 Missing value bets (i play scared sometimes)
- I have AKo in CO 1 limper, i make it $1 to go Button and blinds fold, limper calls (VPIP = ~40). Flop comes rags. Villain checks, I cbet and get called. Turn brings a glorious Ace. Villain bets I just call (wide range of hands could mean two pair, i want to see his action on river) Villain checks river, This is where i always screw up, I think im being trapped but really they are just waiting to c/c the river here with TPxK. anyways, I check behind on the river and he shows AQ. Im sure he would have called at least a 1/2 pot bet. I gotta get better at this.

#2 Crying calls on river
- AQ on button several limpers so i limp as well, flop is something like 5 handed. 729 flop, checked around. 7 hits turn, again checked around. I catch the Q on the river, checked around again, I bet pot, get raised to like 10 dollars, and of course i call thinking that the player who raised has KQ, but no its quad 77's.

anyways these are 2 of my worst leaks that i am trying very hard to fix.

thanks for reading

Jim

[linuxrocks]

MSNL post describing leaks and how to attack them (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5376759&an=0&page=0&vc=1 )

[ChipStorm]

[ QUOTE ]
Number 1 Leak of SSNLers: Missing Value Bets

It's hard to quantify because it's money you didn't win. Can't measure opportunity cost.

[/ QUOTE ]
For The Win. (Note Location please.)

Trailing by 1-1/2 lengths is Not Laying Down The Big Pair When It's Obvious You Are Beaten.

[orange]

for me:
calling bets when you know that your behind. or calling rivers when you know you are beat.

[Shaddux]

I call too many small river bets.

Sometimes I lose value playing too weak-tight (not often)

I fire too many barrels with air on certain occaisions

[younghov17]

younghov17 leak #1 - tilt

ntohing else comes close

[108]

"I can't believe you're THAT bad" call-down pay-offs.

[Jingleheimer]

Sadly, I think I have just about every leak in this thread...

Tilt is also another big one. I have two forms of tilt. One is where I get sucked out on for a large pot. It doesn't make me angry, but I find myself playing a few more hands than I normally would subsequently so that I can play pots with the guy that got me. I am trying to get rid of that one just by being aware of it. My second tilt comes when I am the one that plays poorly. If I call down when obviously beat or make a stupid bluff, I get really upset. I am trying to just get up when that happens, as it is much more expensive than the other tilt.

WRT to value betting on river, this all comes down to hand reading. My quick way to practice hand reading that is not "in the heat of the moment" is to go replay a session in PT with the "only hands that went to showdown" checked. Then I try to guess all the hands for everything it shows me.

[GtrHtr]

[ QUOTE ]
for me:
calling bets when you know that your behind. or calling rivers when you know you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

plus may I add playing micro to begin with. It's a matter of personal pride at this point and its pissing me off.

[Yaboosh]

My biggest leak is my cbetting. I cbet WAY too much. It pays off when people notice and allow me to open up what I play postflop, but I think I really lose a lot in many sessions doing it too much.

[munkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Number 1 Leak of munkey: Missing Value Bets


[/ QUOTE ]

Without a doubt 4_2_it is right. I really do need to extract more, at NL100 I've noticed the good players seem to be really good at getting more than I would - so I've tried to bet more at NL50s. I've tracked a certain player that vbets well - e.g. vs. weak loose passive players with TPTK he will pot pot shove river often.

Matrix,
Could 'value betting' be in the PFR, cbetting micro series?

Will add hand later- PT database not available.

[testaaja]

Not folding to passive players' c/rs [censored].

[munkey]

linux rocks that links sick gold - I can now punish those floater/reraisers in more ways. tks

[Vammakala]

Calling too much with marginal edges and paying off when the edges turn around. That and making plays to push opponents off weak pair when they're not folding them ducks.

[crookdimwit]

Leak #1: Getting too attached to big pairs, overpairs, despite significant postlfop resistance

Leak #2: Not betting for value on the river

Leak #3: Getting over-aggressive re-raising LAG players (table sherriff?)

[IdiotVig]

Anyone who doesn't list "tilt" among their top leaks needs to seriously reexamine their game, and themselves. Doesn't have to be super-mega thermonuclear monkey tilt, either.

Ever been cold-decked and decided to play 83s just because it looks playable?
Ever called down a JT98x board with a 4-flush with AA just because "it's AA"?
Ever spite-raised?
Ever start playing everything in the world when you're on a rush?
Ever get involved in a chat war?

[Edit: I'm not saying these moves don't work. But it is far better to understand why they work, rather than to try them off the cuff because you're steamed.]

Guess what: when your emotions pull you away from your head, you're tilting. It happens way more than you think, because it doesn't have to be the most passionate of emotions, either.

I've played 160K hands this year, and every day, tilt is still the #1 leak I need to correct. YMMV, but anyone who doesn't have some form of tilt as among one of their top leaks is either a robot, or is probably destined for things better than SSNL. [N.B.: For those of you whose knee-jerk reaction is "I don't tilt!!!" -- guess what: your emotions probably play a greater role in your game than you care to admit.]

Work on discipline first. It makes it a lot easier to apply concepts afterwards.

[Everlong]

Deciding on a line and then not following through;

typical example would be something like this

NL25 6-max

Three limpers to me on the button with ATs
I raise to 6xbb - get one caller

Flop is A 8 J rainbow.
Caller bets 1/3 pot

I decide to raise 3x his bet and fold to a re-raise/push

Caller pushes - (and I am not beating anything he might push other than KQ - and he is basically screaming "I HAVE A SET MORAN")
and I snap off his "bluff" by calling anyway

[DeathbySuckout]

[ QUOTE ]
for me:
calling bets when you know that your behind. or calling rivers when you know you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my biggest one. I always think people are bluffing me. I sit there and think, "Ok, so he's saying he has me beat, BUT, this would be a great spot for him to bluff. [censored] it, he doesn't have [censored]." /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[andre683]

fold AQ or AJ too often to a raise when an A hits...

then see that the re-raiser has Aces with a 6 or 7 kicker, and the guy who called down has middle pair

[King Spew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for me:
calling bets when you know that your behind. or calling rivers when you know you are beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my biggest one. I always think people are bluffing me. I sit there and think, "Ok, so he's saying he has me beat, BUT, this would be a great spot for him to bluff. [censored] it, he doesn't have [censored]." /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In a nutshell for me. If I had all the $$$ back from all the LARGE river bets I've called the past year, I could buy you all a new monitor.

[munkey]

I think this recent MCNL thread best sums up missed value bets for me.
AA 50nl common spot , river: value bet city or play it safe? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7413175&page=0&fpart=1&v c=1)

[Acein8ter]

*I'd also go with the calling too much, even with a str8 or 3 flush board
*Slowplaying - and allowing villains to catch their cards
*Mis-playing AK
*Unable to laydown TPTK
*Not reading the board for possible str8s

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
(.10/.25 NL FR)
#2 Crying calls on river
- AQ on button several limpers so i limp as well, flop is something like 5 handed. 729 flop, checked around. 7 hits turn, again checked around. I catch the Q on the river, checked around again, I bet pot, get raised to like 10 dollars, and of course i call thinking that the player who raised has KQ, but no its quad 77's.


[/ QUOTE ]

Limping AQ on the btn looks like a bigger leak than making a crying call here. The crying call depends on your read of villain though I agree that given pot odds of ~1.6:1 it may well be a fold.

[PunchOut]

- tilt
- concentration/focus

[Jouster777]

[ QUOTE ]
concentration/focus

[/ QUOTE ]

That's definitely mine

[ReNoRyan]

-calling bets when I know Im dominated
-not value betting the river
-playing too many hand out of position
-bluffing calling stations
-playing too many tables at a time

[z28dreams]

[ QUOTE ]
Number 1 Leak of SSNLers: Missing Value Bets

It's hard to quantify because it's money you didn't win. Can't measure opportunity cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely my leak, and it's especially on the river. I compared some stats with orange and found that my river aggression was HALF what his was (1.2 vs. 2.4).

[jaustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Ever been cold-decked and decided to play 83s just because it looks playable?
Ever called down a JT98x board with a 4-flush with AA just because "it's AA"?
Ever spite-raised?
Ever start playing everything in the world when you're on a rush?
Ever get involved in a chat war?

[/ QUOTE ]

No

[testaaja]

Being careless.. Lost about 2 buy ins today because I was careless. Didn't see the rereraise to my original raise and pushed AKs pf. The other is even worse.. I will now evaluate the situation every time the action gets to me.

[kokiri]

lack of patience: not losing when you're cold decked is actually winning. Getting bored and engaging the FPS machine is losing. A lot.

also one that I have worked to eliminate:

getting excited when I improve of the turn/river and missing the fact that it might have made the villain a better made hand. I.e rivering a straight but losing to a rivered flush

[ughaulkghalugh]

sometimes just play full ring raising standards preflop with 6max... i'm a stupid nit /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[KingOfSwords]

I pay off on the river too much, usually because I don't give my opponents enough credit.

Absolute Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter (http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter)

Opponent is 28/7.9/1.8 over 146 hands. No additional reads.
Absolute allows 200 BB buyins so the max here is $200, although I buy in for 100BB at this level.

Stack sizes:
UTG: $32
UTG+1: $113.35
CO: $69.05
Button: $51.10
SB: $199
King: $100

Pre-flop: (6 players) King is BB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">King raises to $6</font>, UTG+1 calls, SB folds.

Flop: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif ($13, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">King bets $10</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($33, 2 players)
King checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif ($33, 2 players)
King checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $20</font>, King calls.

Results:
Final pot: $73

Results in white:
<font color="white">He had 88. My thinking was that he had a worse Jack and didn't improve. I didn't put him on a PP and I didn't put him on a draw. By the river, I should have realized something was up since any 9 beats me. JT is a likely hand too...people love to play JT. </font>

[tgo007]

Not folding to raises post flop. Hardly anyone raises post flop without the goods. I had trouble laying down overpairs such as AA/KK. I got smashed by a lot of sets. If I had a set and the turn brought 3 suits and I make a big bet and they raised me. They would have the flush. Same thing happens with straight cards.

[Skuzzy]

Tilt and sucking really bad at poker.

I play 200NL now but I can still finish a session look over a few hands and as soon as the question "what did i put him on?" enters my head I realise I spent the whole time on LVL 0 thinking. Embarassing really. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[mojobluesman]

My biggest leak is sitting down at a NL table instead of sticking with what I know. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[MrMxyztplk]

[ QUOTE ]
Not folding to passive players' c/rs [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

I see that a lot!