NL$50 6max: Overpair on the flop in big pot

[PietM]

Ok, so I raised a nice amount pre-flop, but the whole table wants in. The pot is huge, what's my best line here on the flop? My gut tells me to push all-in, but that's basicly because I want all the drawers out.

I guess that's a bad emotion, right? I think I play my good hands way too hard, in fear of someone drawing out on me (even though I know I can bet less and still let them make mistakes). But maybe that deserves a post of it's own.

Anyway, table didn't seem too loose or anything, no real superdonks either. The small bet from MP looks an awfull lot like a flushdraw of some kind...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool (http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php) from FlopTurnRiver.com (http://www.flopturnriver.com) (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($88.33)
BB ($91.65)
UTG ($55.35)
MP ($68.38)
PietM ($52.20)
Button ($45.75)

Preflop: PietM is CO with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">PietM raises to $3.5</font>, Button calls $3.50, SB (poster) calls $3.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $3, MP calls $2.50.

Flop: ($18) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $3</font>, PietM??

[SABR42]

Make it $20 to go on the flop, fold to a push.

[mudbuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
Make it $20 to go on the flop, fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

yah i treat these "probe bets" as checks

sounds like a pretty solid line

maybe even not fold if hes a donkey enough

[KingOfSwords]

$20 to go is a good line. You're not folding to a $3 bet and you're not going to let MP and perhaps the others chase their flushes and gutshots so cheaply.

[berent]

[ QUOTE ]
Make it $20 to go on the flop, fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]

My biggest leak is/was not to fold to a push in this situation, really working on it and it really improves my game.

[ColdSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
My gut tells me to push all-in, but that's basicly because I want all the drawers out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, like I said in your other post, I think that's scared poker. Interestingly, in this case you may have done the right thing but for the wrong reasons.

I don't dislike the push, but I hate your reason for the push. This pot is kinda funky. The table seems pretty nice -- nobody has a short stack. But you ended up 4-way in a raised pot and a slightly coordinated flop. And then someone bets just like they have a draw. You're not closing the action here, and I think that makes it even more important that you raise.

Now, how much to raise? Because the pot is so big, if you make a pot sized raise here it will make it $27 to go. If you get just one caller the pot will be $54 and you will only have $21 behind. Then no matter what you do on the turn the opponent will be playing perfectly against you. If you get more than one caller on the flop, your turn situation is even worse. In postflop poker you always have to plan ahead. How will your action on the flop effect the turn? Never make a flop bet withhout figuring turn stacks first.

As a general rule of thumb, if I am making any raise on the flop that will leave less than 1 PSB on the turn if I get the intended number of callers, I'll just push the flop instead. I think that's the right thing to do here, too.

Another option is to make a less than pot sized raise such that you'll have closer to a PSB left on the turn, and then push any safe turn. In this case I'm not sure I'g go that way, because of the additional players. If you have a read that the other players are loose preflop coldcallers and then they fold too much on the flop, then this might not be a bad plan.

[quarkncover]

I'm looking to get it all-in here.

[Sh@i'tan]

[ QUOTE ]
Make it $20 to go on the flop, fold to a push.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? A raise to 20 and calling a push sounds good. You'll be getting around 2:1 on your call and i expect to be good a lot more than 33% of the time.

[PokerRookie11]

Raise to $20 or so and fold to a push...although I would be more willing to call a push from MP as his line looks like a feeler bet with jacks or 10's....

[SABR42]

[ QUOTE ]
Why? A raise to 20 and calling a push sounds good. You'll be getting around 2:1 on your call and i expect to be good a lot more than 33% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
If villain is loose/bad then calling a push is good.

But otherwise expect to see a set quite often.

[kongs]

There is nothing wrong with calling an all-in after you bet $20 imo. You get decent odds and likely the person will be on a flush draw. Since you have 1 of the spades...there is on 8 cards in the deck that help him.

[SABR42]

Calling can't be a big mistake, as the pot will already be pretty big, and you'll be getting decent odds.

However, this IS a 5-way raised pot, so random pocket pairs will be all over the place. Raising the flop basically announces that we have an overpair, but we still have to raise. If someone pushes into that action he's got to have QQ beat, unless he is really bad.

Like I said though, if pusher is known to be loose/bad, call push. My standard line is to fold to a push.

[gimmetheloot]

Calling is ugly, and I think so is getting in in as Quark has suggested. I am raising to ~15(will accomplish the same damn thing as 20 and saves some loot) and folding to a push.

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
My gut tells me to push all-in, but that's basicly because I want all the drawers out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Only if you hate money.

Just raise flop.