Play many hands, and see a lot of flops, or play tight?

[essence86]

Hi!

I´ve been wrestling with the 25NL 6max at Party Poker for some time now. And I have to say..I am having a tough time.
I don´t lose...but my winnings are marginal.
I always feel like sitting around and playing tight poker isn´t optimal in any way.
I see my friends who are playing winning huge pots because they play 7-5 suited and such hands..making straights and everything.
I sit around, and try to play mostly AK, AQ and so on.
But I only hit the flop 1/3. And I´ve been told never to bluff..so I don´t. I am happy if I even win when I nail my top pair!
There is always someone out there with a 98 off suit and makes two pair or whatever.

To make a long story short..I never win big pots basically.
Only when I get real lucky and make a set for example.

I have just 21% VPIP, and 19% Went to showdown...
Maybe I shouldn´t fold so much? But then again..why play a hand when I KNOW I am the underdog.

[ughaulkghalugh]

to play an optimal loose/aggressive game you should have a lot of experience -- maybe 6max isn't right for you if you're playing a very tight game?

[Shaddux]

[ QUOTE ]
why play a hand when I KNOW I am the underdog.

[/ QUOTE ]
implied odds

Sounds like you play way too weak-tight.

If you never win big pots, then I suggest playing hands that win big pots.

Do you take position into account when making pf decisions? Playing only AK and AQ from LP is definitely a leak IMO.

[essence86]

yeah well.. I don´t know. I don´t want to be a tight player...I have tried full ring games, and did not like them at all. People play just as loose there too, at least on 25NL.

[Shaddux]

playing conservatively works fine in 6-max.

At the microstakes, I tend to only play LAGish when the table is very weak, and I have good reads. If my cbets are being called by 2 players each flop and at least 50% of the table is seeing the flop every hand, I'm not raising UTG with 76. (Although this would be great in LP)

[essence86]

hi!

Yes, you are right. I am what you would call a "weak" player. I am easily bluffed, don´t like to "risk any money", want to have the nuts etc.

Hands that win big pots..yes. I can only think of small to medium pairs, that flop sets, and suited connectors, that make a killer flop. (which they never do IMO).

Yes, I take position in account, raising more with AK and AQ from Late position...someimes just calling a raise from early pos.

[Shaddux]

It's good when they play loose.

[T.J. Combo]

Nothing wrong at all playing FR and super tight at the micros.

I prefer FR because you see a lot bigger hands and that's cool to me. . . also I'm too big a pussy to get up close and personal with 6 people. It's like SH you have to be really agressive, and I'm really more of a passive agressive player. Raise premium holdings, fold the rest. Whatever you're playing, whatever you plan to play, raise it. Don't feel comfortable raising? Fold it.

A9s is a premium holding 6 max. It's an instafold FR unless I'm CO or Button and it's been folded to me.

In 6 max, weaker hands hold up better, but you won't see as many crazy hands like quads, straight flushes, boat over boat, set over set, etc.

[SABR42]

OP, do you c-bet enough?

A c-bet is not really a bluff.

Most of the time when you raise AK (or any non-pair hand for that matter) you won't flop a pair. If you just give up on the flop you're leaving a lot of money on the table.

[n1nj4.br]

Any non maniac style can win a lot at micro stakes. Dont think u are not winning cause you are tight or loose, the problem is prolly on your postflop play.

[SABR42]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm really more of a passive agressive player.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Does not compute.

[essence86]

well.. so they say /images/graemlins/laugh.gif A fundamental question: I raise with KK to $2 pre-flop. I get called by one person from middle pos. Flop is 8-8-10. I lose all my money to a 8-9 off suit who called the $2 raise. Did he make a mistake? Did I make a mistake?

[Shaddux]

If this happens to you a majority of the time, I'm glad I don't run as bad as you lol

[ughaulkghalugh]

what was the action? saying you lost kk vs 89o for stacks is just pretty vague.

[Shaddux]

Don't be weak then. Weak players don't win lots of money.

[ColdSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
well.. so they say /images/graemlins/laugh.gif A fundamental question: I raise with KK to $2 pre-flop. I get called by one person from middle pos. Flop is 8-8-10. I lose all my money to a 8-9 off suit who called the $2 raise. Did he make a mistake? Did I make a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you lose all your money with an unimproved AK on a 889 flop, then you made the mistake and the opponent played perfectly against you.

[essence86]

well this happens quite a lot yes... nothing I can do really.. I think I am playing too tight/passive. Or, I know I am. When I held the KK, he called me on the flop, and I went all in on the Turn.

[Bukem_]

MOst likely what you are doing is being scared of the bad beat before it happens.

So you build a smaller pot with your strong holdings, but when someone outflops you and makes a raise it sucks you in.

Probably need to focus on finding the weak players that stack off easy and player bigger pots vs them with your strongest one pair hands.

[Shaddux]

Post hands here. We teach you not to be weak. We teach you to be strong player.

[bmk67]

Well, in a FR game, there is certainly nothing wrong with a 21% VP$IP. In 6MAX it's probably too tight. Like another posted suggested, I think you problem may be post-flop play. Yes, at these levels it is mostly -EV to bluff, but the continuation bet (which is not strictly a bluff) is a very profitable move when done correctly.

If you never c-bet, your post-flop play is far too transparent. Anyone who's paying attention knows you play premium hands, and when you check the flop, they know you missed and don't like your hand much, so they steal it from you. I did the same thing when I first started online FR, and my results were much the same as yours.

Tight play is good, passive play isn't. Selective aggression takes down pots. OK, so you miss 2/3 of your flops - so does everybody else. You'll capitalize on this by being the pre-flop raiser, and continuation betting whenver the conditions are favorible.

If you raise in position with AK and your opponent checks to you on the flop, usually throw out a 2/3 to pot-size bet (depending on the texture of the flop). Most of the time it'll take it down right there, enough so that it's very profitable. Be less eager to continuation bet when you're out of position or when you have more than one other villian. One thing that the c-bet gives you is this: villians will never know when you missed, when you hold an overpair, or when you've flopped the stone cold nuts. Most of the time you'll take it down on the flop with an unimproved hand, and you'll be able to get away from it when you get played with.

The money made in c-bets is profit of course, but here's how you really benefit from it: since your postflop action is the same whether you hit or missed, sooner or later you're going to hit big, you'll get played with, and all your money is going in the middle. This is how money is made in NL.

There are times to not c-bet, of course: don't c-bet into a station, for example.

You might consider 6MAX, it is, in my opinion *the* game to be in for aggressive players (which is what you should be if you want to win). The remainder of this post relates strictly to 6MAX (though applies to FR to a lesser degree).

Generally, when you enter a pot, you want to be raising if it's unopened or it's been limped to you. If it's a hand worth playing, it's worth a raise. You almost always want to isolate down to one villian *and* have position, even if you're playing small pairs or suited connectors. In NL, you don't need a multiway pot to play these hands, you need good implied odds.

Avoid raising from the blinds without a premium hand, you really don't want to play pots without position if you can avoid it.

Play position. Any pot you play, you want to be in position, which you'll get by raising. If you have strong players to your left that aren't letting your raises work, find another table with weaker players.

You'll find in 6MAX that your VP$IP goes way up (if you're at 21% now, I would not be surprised to see it go to 30% if you play aggressively), because you're going to be doing two things: raising with hands in early position that you wouldn't dream of playing in the same situation in full ring, and you'll be raising more with marginal hands in the cutoff and on the button. Blind stealing opportunities come up far more often in 6MAX. If I've got two rocks in my blinds, I may raise with almost anything on the button if it's folded to me.

If it's been raised up before you, fold most hands. Calling with pairs and suited connectors is fine, *if* you are in a hand with a villian who will pay you off if you hit. Reraise with your premium hands.

Speaking of raises, I would almost never minimum raise. Preflop, you should be generally raising at least 3BB, more if there are limpers. Post flop, almost all of your bets should be 2/3 to pot-size, and your raises should be crafted to commit villian to the pot when you have the best of it. A minraise just screams "please suck out on me", and often they'll be correct to draw. You don't want that.