Is SSHE outadated?

[Boo Boo]

Before you all go and bag me about the statement. Yes it is a very good book and a must read as a beginning player. But how many low limit tables (online especially)actually play like the examples in the book (Seven to eight to see the flop of which half of them if not more will see the turn.)

I'm sure these tables did exist at one stage but if they still do could someone please point me to a chair.

Please note I love this book and this is not an attack, I just thought it would make an interesting discussion point.

Cheers

[Easy E]

I've seen B&M tables that call a raise around the table with that many.

Game conditions don't change that quickly.

[Gelford]

Well not really ... the preflop starting chart might be a little loose, but the rest of the book pretty much delivers IMHO (one of the few places where playing draws based on potequity is explained, even TOP neglects this)

Which reminds me .. Rolf Slotboom has a 'Hold'em on the come' book coming out around 1. of may, which deals exclusicely with the playing of draws in limit hold'em ... I for one am looking forward to it


Plenty of books coming out around there .. spending time (allthough I must admit something deep inside me tells me, that me Daniels Negreanu's book might turn out a let down .. don't know why ?? )

[Boo Boo]

Fair enough It could just be were I play. Basically when I raise everyone says "Woah lookout" and folds except for maybe 1-2 players. I'm a 18-20 VP$IP with 8-10 PFR too so I'm not ultra tight either.

[Brice]

I am not trying to get off topic here, but...

Which Internet are you playing on?

[Gelford]

And what stakes ? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Al P]

Indian Casino with a poker room.

[Hallett]

I am pretty sure this has been posted a ton of times:

This book was not written for your average online game. It works for micro limit online, and most B&M games up to 15/30 and likely higher in some locations. If anyone felt that it was for online play, they were either playing at great, profitable sites, or were sadly misguided as to the purpose of the book.

[Boo Boo]

Usually play 1/2 and play lots of sites ( yes I'm a whore) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[mowz]

I play 5/10 and SSHE applies. If you are 20/10 you are already not listening to what the book tells you do to. Read it again. The games play the same.

[smbruin22]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not trying to get off topic here, but...

Which Internet are you playing on?

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, which internet are you playing? please find me tables where an average of 6-8 see the flop and most stay for the river

you guys questioning the original poster. do you actually play anywhere?

SSHE is a great book. and i agree with the one poster that it goes thru alot of stuff post-flop that no other book i've found does.....

but i'm basically completely ignoring the 6-8 average to flop.... 8 person average seeing flop? i mean, come on!

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
but i'm basically completely ignoring the 6-8 average to flop.... 8 person average seeing flop? i mean, come on!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the least significant part of the book anyways yet the most covered, it seems. More energy is better spent learning why certain hands play better in spots and why others don't.

I also think it's more an intermediate book than a beginners book.

This book is far from being dated.

b

[smbruin22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but i'm basically completely ignoring the 6-8 average to flop.... 8 person average seeing flop? i mean, come on!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the least significant part of the book anyways yet the most covered, it seems. More energy is better spent learning why certain hands play better in spots and why others don't.

I also think it's more an intermediate book than a beginners book.

This book is far from being dated.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

bernie, fair comment.. i agree. the original poster might have asked about the book being outdated whereas you and i agree that parts are outdated....

but i think it's important that players realize this... and i agree this is not a beginners book..

the one thing that gary carson's beginner book (the one i used) drills into you is that analyzing the table conditions is so absolutely important.

[Margon]

Preflop it can be misleading.

Post flop it is all pure gold.

Margon

[smbruin22]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop it can be misleading.

Post flop it is all pure gold.

Margon

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i am re-reading miller and seeing the absolute gold of the post-flop section.

although i do think the overwhelming #1 error(s) of most B&M players is playing too many hands (and especially in poor position and/or when someone has already raised)...

i know miller thinks the post-flop is more important but i disagree for most people (and don't forget, if you fold pre-flop, you can't lose any more $$$$ post flop)

[MicroBob]

Are you really comparing the advice in Carson's book to SSHE?

[OrangeKing]

I don't even get the people complaining about the pre-flop stuff. If you're only seeing 3-5 to the flop, can't you just switch to the "tight" game chart? It's only one page over.

[MicroBob]

too much effort to do that.

[thing85]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even get the people complaining about the pre-flop stuff. If you're only seeing 3-5 to the flop, can't you just switch to the "tight" game chart? It's only one page over.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, this is the only real adjustment you need to make. And futhermore, once you're a decent player, you shouldn't even need to look at chart. And like mentioned already, pre-flop is fairly insignificant compared to post-flop play. The best players can turn any hand pre-flop into a profitable post flop hand (given certain table conditions, reads, etc.)

smchant, your point about pre-flop mistakes is true, however the majority of mistakes (and dollars lost) will be made postflop. Poor preflop play amplifies the post flop play mistakes, simply because in increases the frequency at which they can be made.

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
i know miller thinks the post-flop is more important but i disagree for most people (and don't forget, if you fold pre-flop, you can't lose any more $$$$ post flop)

[/ QUOTE ]

But SSHE is designed for people who are already know the importance of tight preflop play. It's not for novices.

Preflop is important, but also relatively easy, and you should be at least decent at it before you read SSHE.

[12AX7]

Well, to expand on this thought even further... everything in SSHE pertains to poker from a theoretical and playing time perpective.

Nothing in it is dated. Much of it applies to a specific type of game. But just as much of it is broadly applicable poker knowledge.

Though Ed refers to it as a post flop book, I think Hilger's method of describing post flop scenarios is much more disciplined. In fact Hilger's post flop is a organized as Miller's preflop, ironically enough. Ed's pre-flop stuff is gold. But then so is his post flop analysis tools descriptions. All good stuff.

Bottom line, nothing outdated about it at all. Just keep in mind the situations that each piece of advice is situated in, rather than seeing it as a "cookbook".

In fact, take any poker book and try to use it as a cook book and you are likely to get into trouble.

That fact used to perturb me quite a bit when I first tripped over 2+2 books years ago. That it all seemed so twisted and difficult to follow. Thousands and thousands of hands later it now seems easier to digest.

However, Ed's writing style was a definite improvement over earlier 2+2 works.

Had this slap me in the face again yesterday as I sat down to reread HPFAP for the first time in years.

That phrase "Hands like xx" really is a pain. This is where Hilger (post flop) and Miller (preflop) both excel. Thier catagorizations are clear and sharp.

Granted, "Hand Groupings" were a major improvement in that time, and 2+2 has probably defined the lexicon of Holdem for a long time to come.

[12AX7]

Does not Ed Miller *cite* Gary Carson?

Carson's overall strategy or whatever may not be great. But his explanation of some concepts is very good.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't even get the people complaining about the pre-flop stuff. If you're only seeing 3-5 to the flop, can't you just switch to the "tight" game chart? It's only one page over.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is far too logical of a suggestion for some from Camp Complainsalot.

[Boo Boo]

Too reply to the preflop stuff yeah that will hardly ever happen. But what about the postflop stuff where there is a bet a raise and then 3 or 4 people cold call on the flop. How often does that happen? Again hardly ever if at all.

Cheers

[sweetjazz]

The book has (at least!) two important values:

* Explaining in detail how to beat games where many players play much too many hands and go much too far with them. These games are common live and not infrequent in lower limits online.

* Improving your ability to analyze poker situations by giving examples of using the information available to you about your opponent's playing strategy to optomize your strategy in the game.

The latter is, in some ways, much more valuable, although it takes a lot of work to apply it in other situations.

If you play middle limit HE games online (which I currently do), then you simply cannot rely on SSHE's advice, as some of it does not apply to those games, in which more players are tighter and almost all players are much more aggressive than assumed in SSHE. So that means you have to figure out how to adapt to those conditions.

There is not yet a book that gives specific recommendations as to how to do so, although one could no doubt be compiled based on the posts that have been made on the 2+2 forums. So there is a resource available, although most players have to do a lot of the learning "on their own." In order to progress in the poker world, you have to rely more and more on your own ability to understand and apply poker theory (something you should have been developing throughout your progression up in stakes) and less on detailed explanations of the theory as applied to your current situation.

[smbruin22]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you really comparing the advice in Carson's book to SSHE?

[/ QUOTE ]

i was just pointing out the one overwhelming strength of gary's book. he really drills into you that there is NO cookbook (consistent with all the posts here) and different strategies work for different.

all of us "know" this, but the book really drills this into you.

lots and lots of weaknesses with the carson book.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

If you play middle limit HE games online (which I currently do), then you simply cannot rely on SSHE's advice, as some of it does not apply to those games, in which more players are tighter and almost all players are much more aggressive than assumed in SSHE. So that means you have to figure out how to adapt to those conditions.

[/ QUOTE ]


Different cardrooms at different times will produce different results, likewise online rooms, but, ballpark, if you're playing up through around $3-$6 online ... or around $20-$40 live ... Small Stakes Hold 'em is on the money for advice (especially since you can flip back and forth betwixt the tight and loose advice). Beyond those points, it still holds water, but you have to start morphing more into a Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players strategy.

[Elevens]

Here is Ed Miller's response in a recent thread.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Be critical of the loose hand chart, the book was printed when poker had reached its' ceiling in popularity and a good majority of online games were filled with people that were just there for the novelty of it, hence the games were more loose then than they are now.

[/ QUOTE ]

The loose game chart was written with the Hawaiian Gardens $4-$8 game in mind. I never intended it for any online game ever.

EDIT: Sorry to be snipey.. in a bad mood I guess. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Thanks for reading and enjoying Small Stakes. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edited by Ed Miller (01/27/06 04:13 AM)

[/ QUOTE ]

[Easy E]

By your definition, every book is outdated as soon as game conditions change.

Some games will fit better with the advice than others. To consider SSHE "outdated" is silly.

If you really think so, put it down right now and send it to me instead, before you suffer irreparable damage.

[acekingoffsuit]

no, it is not outdated. but I do think the average player is better than 10 years ago.

true sound poker advise wont change.

[MicroBob]

of course...how the players were 10 yrs ago isn't relevant to this discussion since SSHE was written just 2 years ago.

[cwsiggy]

At the low stakes B&M I play - Borgata, Showboat, etc, it's beaucoup fish to the flop. 4-6 almost every single hand!!!
Internet play is a bit tighter.

[ottsville]

SSHE thread in beginner forum with ed miller's comments (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4539460&an=0&page=0#Post 4539460)


[ QUOTE ]
If you play middle limit HE games online (which I currently do), then you simply cannot rely on SSHE's advice, as some of it does not apply to those games, in which more players are tighter and almost all players are much more aggressive than assumed in SSHE

[/ QUOTE ]

The book was never meant for online games(see ed's post), and definitely not for these styles of games.
Doesn't the cover say "....crushing loose games...?" If you are applying the information to the wrong game whose fault is that?

What are we really lamenting here...that the info isn't accurate for the games we play or that the games we play don't have six-eight players to the flop? I have been in live games that fit the loose game descriptions. They're quite common at low stakes in casinos and home games. Unfortunately for many of us, our only outlet to play is the internet. So the starting hand charts are not the best for that type of game. Ignore them. Take the other good info from the book and use it. When you got the chinese buffet, do you eat everything there because it's there, or do you just take what you want?

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
The book was never meant for online games(see ed's post)...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. The book WAS intended for online games. The loose games chart wasn't. Here's the quote he's referring too from the other thread:

[ QUOTE ]
The loose game chart was written with the Hawaiian Gardens $4-$8 game in mind. I never intended it for any online game ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSH intended for online games. Loose games chart in SSH not intended for online games.

[mike3076]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The book was never meant for online games(see ed's post)...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. The book WAS intended for online games. The loose games chart wasn't. Here's the quote he's referring too from the other thread:

[ QUOTE ]
The loose game chart was written with the Hawaiian Gardens $4-$8 game in mind. I never intended it for any online game ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSH intended for online games. Loose games chart in SSH not intended for online games.

[/ QUOTE ]
i only use this book at hawain gardens room at limit 4-8
it works great now.

[MicroBob]

I thought it was pretty obvious that the book applied to online-games...but that the loose-games chart didn't.

But obviously others are having trouble seeing that.


Sklansky in the foreward makes reference to how one can actually multi-table 3/6 online and pull-in $50k a year now (3/6 limit for $50k/yr obviously being impossible before online play) and I think this alone should make it obvious that the book applies to internet play.

[reo]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Maybe they aren't actually reading it.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought it was pretty obvious that the book applied to online-games...but that the loose-games chart didn't.

But obviously others are having trouble seeing that.


Sklansky in the foreward makes reference to how one can actually multi-table 3/6 online and pull-in $50k a year now (3/6 limit for $50k/yr obviously being impossible before online play) and I think this alone should make it obvious that the book applies to internet play.

[/ QUOTE ]

[shmoosh]

I think it is a mistake to follow any set of instructions by rote and expect to win. I will agree that in general internet games are tighter than low limit live games. SSHE is a great book because of its explanation of the underlying concepts. If you understand them well enough you should be able to apply most of them to any game you're playing in.

[MicroBob]

I believe Clarkmeister said that much of SSHE applied all the way up to some live 80/160 games that he has played.


From what I have read of the mid-high stakes party games, I believe that many of the opponents at party 30/60 are fishy enough (and 'go too far with their hands') where a thorough knowledge of SSHE will be very helpful.


I don't have experience at either the party 30/60 or live 80/160...just relating what others have said.


you need to absorb the instructions from SSHE and use it constructively.
You will also be wise to learn from HEFAP as well at a certain point.

[ottsville]

Sorry for the misquote Ed. Good to see you here again.

[Kurwood Derby]

It took a while for people to really get their butts kicked following the advice in this book. About a year ago SSHE was the gospel according to Miller and no one would dare criticize it. Funny how things change, huh?

Can't wait for your book on no-limit, Ed. Bet that one will fill the poker rooms with even more clueless donkeys.

[smbruin22]

we should somewhat cut a break here. all these books are what you make of them and you always have to know what type of table you are playing against.

i like the post-flop section but i find some of it somewhat tricky to apply (protecting your hands etc.) and i was a complete math whiz (not that it's so mathematical, but it is analytical). i can just see people getting all aggressive betting second and third hands, which is a sure recipe for spewing chips. you really have to pick your spots on some of the "post flop" plays.

the other thing i couldn't understand about protecting your hand is that sometimes you can get better hands to fold, but my experience is that B&M loose passive is just filled with calling stations (especially on the flop - they might give it up later though).

anyhow, a really great book. it and harrington 1 are my two top books by a mile... then a whole bunch i like further down.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
The best players can turn any hand pre-flop into a profitable post flop hand (given certain table conditions, reads, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

With many hands, this is simply accomplished by folding preflop.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't even get the people complaining about the pre-flop stuff. If you're only seeing 3-5 to the flop, can't you just switch to the "tight" game chart? It's only one page over.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is far too logical of a suggestion for some from Camp Complainsalot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it's much more logical to depend on charts than to actually realize why you play a certain type of hand in a certain spot preflop. That would just be way outside the box, wouldn't it? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

b

[Gelford]

You don't really need books anyway .. look at players like Doyle or TJ .. they didn't have book back then .. and they can still hold their own

You just have to believe in your self, have confidence and play a lot (Learned by doing is the only way !! )

[Bauertson]

Hi Ed

Thank you for your great book. I have one Questition:

Which starting Concept should I take for online games, the loose or the tigth?

Thank you for the answer.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You just have to believe in your self, have confidence and play a lot (Learned by doing is the only way !! )

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Along with noting where the ATMs are upon arriving to the room so as to save time looking for them later on.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
You just have to believe in your self, have confidence and play a lot (Learned by doing is the only way !! )

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Along with good visual skills in noting where the ATMs are upon arriving to the room so as to save time looking for them later on.

b

[Gelford]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Ed

Thank you for your great book. I have one Questition:

Which starting Concept should I take for online games, the loose or the tigth?

Thank you for the answer.

[/ QUOTE ]


If I'm not mistaken .. Ed himself actually answers that question in this thread (shaking my head and laughing )

[Bauertson]

Thank you for your answer, but I havent read the answer from Ed.
Which one is the right, can you tell me that.

Sorry for your shaking and laughing...

[Gelford]

In this thread about 17 post (or replies) back from the post I in this instance am posting, Ed Miller himself has posted ... and it matches your question to the decimal.

No need to apoligize or feel sorry on my behalf .. just read the WHOLE thread .. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Elevens]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for your answer, but I havent read the answer from Ed.
Which one is the right, can you tell me that.

Sorry for your shaking and laughing...

[/ QUOTE ]

Here. I did the work for you.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The book was never meant for online games(see ed's post)...

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. The book WAS intended for online games. The loose games chart wasn't. Here's the quote he's referring too from the other thread:

[ QUOTE ]
The loose game chart was written with the Hawaiian Gardens $4-$8 game in mind. I never intended it for any online game ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSH intended for online games. Loose games chart in SSH not intended for online games.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Bauertson]

Thank you very much! I'm wondering that for online games the tight concept are the right one, but when Ed this say...

In the startinghand by Ed Miller is the Blind-Steal and the defence for Blindstealing not listet. I think that for this two szenario the good starting hand chart must be completed.

For me, I have added the startinghand by Ciaffone about his book "middle limit holdem" for the blindsteal and the defense.

Are you agree with my Idea, when you understand my bad english ;-)

[MicroBob]

The english is a little tough to follow here.

But basically you need to consider your table and your situation.
Understand the concepts behind the charts.
Switching from one pre-flop chart to another might make some difference in there.
But overall, you need to try to get off the pre-flop charts eventually.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

You just have to believe in your self, have confidence and play a lot

[/ QUOTE ]


The number of players who tell themselves that 'they can do it' because they have the 'belief in themselves' and 'the confidence to win' is very high.

The number of players who do this AND actually win just because they are 'really super-duper confident about their abilities' is really low.


I can tell myself how great I am and that I have terrific confidence and that 'I can do it!!!!' but if I step up to the plate against Roger Clemens I am probably NOT going to hit a home-run no matter how hard I try or how confident I am.
Reason: I don't have the tools necessary to hit a home-run off of Roger Clemens (or anyone else for that matter).


you need the 'tools' to succeed at poker.
This includes learning how one SHOULD play in certain situations.
This is not just having the confidence that I CAN make the right choice...but the actual knowledge and information necessary in order to do that.

Winning poker is way more than just 'confidence'.

[Elevens]

Here's a link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=micro&Number=999097&fpart =1&PHPSESSID=) to an SSHE pre-flop chart (not endorsed by 2+2).

[shaddix]

What are the stats of the players at the Hawaiian Gardens $4-$8 game

[WordWhiz]

[ QUOTE ]
What are the stats of the players at the Hawaiian Gardens $4-$8 game

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't give you that cardroom specifically, but if it's like most live 4/8 games, very, very loose. I rarely play live, but in my limited experience, 8-9 to the flop isn't at all uncommon, nor is 3-4 still around at the river with crap. Virtually everyone is an ultra loose-passive calling station just shoveling chips back and forth to each other, with the house taking its cut every hand. An occasional maniac spices things up, but the situations described in SSHE--getting called down to the river by 4 players and your top pair is good against all of them--is quite common (and profitable!).

[Biloxi]

"The definitive guide to crushing loose games and amateur opponents" online players play alot of hands and learn faster then B&M players. If you arent playing in loose games against weak opponents then get use more stuff from Advanced Hold Em

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
we should somewhat cut a break here. all these books are what you make of them and you always have to know what type of table you are playing against.

i like the post-flop section but i find some of it somewhat tricky to apply (protecting your hands etc.) and i was a complete math whiz (not that it's so mathematical, but it is analytical). i can just see people getting all aggressive betting second and third hands, which is a sure recipe for spewing chips. you really have to pick your spots on some of the "post flop" plays.

the other thing i couldn't understand about protecting your hand is that sometimes you can get better hands to fold, but my experience is that B&M loose passive is just filled with calling stations (especially on the flop - they might give it up later though).

anyhow, a really great book. it and harrington 1 are my two top books by a mile... then a whole bunch i like further down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah none of them are going out. When Ed's book came out, I used to play at the Commerce and their low limit games would often have everybody in on the flop, often auto-coldcalling raises and even OFTEN everyone, for hours, auto-calling every hand CAPPED preflop. They were there to gamble.

[CarlSpackler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You just have to believe in your self, have confidence and play a lot

[/ QUOTE ]


The number of players who tell themselves that 'they can do it' because they have the 'belief in themselves' and 'the confidence to win' is very high.

The number of players who do this AND actually win just because they are 'really super-duper confident about their abilities' is really low.


I can tell myself how great I am and that I have terrific confidence and that 'I can do it!!!!' but if I step up to the plate against Roger Clemens I am probably NOT going to hit a home-run no matter how hard I try or how confident I am.
Reason: I don't have the tools necessary to hit a home-run off of Roger Clemens (or anyone else for that matter).


you need the 'tools' to succeed at poker.
This includes learning how one SHOULD play in certain situations.
This is not just having the confidence that I CAN make the right choice...but the actual knowledge and information necessary in order to do that.

Winning poker is way more than just 'confidence'.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. When most losing players sit down at the table, they are hoping to win, not expecting to win. It's one thing to tell yourself that you're going to win, but it's completely another to actually believe it deep down. The Roger Clemens scenario is the perfect example. You or I could tell ourselves that we're going to get a hit, but deep down neither of us would believe it when we're standing at the plate.

IMO, the vast majority of losing players who have a lot of confidence when they sit down at the table are those who are running well, on a heater, etc. and have experienced enough positive variance to this point that they have made money in the game, but in the long run, they are still losing players.

I agree with your take that you need 'tools' and skills to win at poker. If you have these and execute proper table selection and bankroll management, then you're going to develop true confidence in your poker ability. Then when you then sit down at the poker table, you're going to be confident that you will win the majority of the time over the long run.

[King Car]

I just got back from playing 4/8 at the Wynn this past weekend and from what I saw there is no way this book is outdated.

Over the course of 5 sessions in 2 days, there were at least 10-15 times we went to the flop 8 handed in a raised, and sometimes re-raised pot. Also, overcalls and bluff raises into 4 players on the river were not un-common.

The play really was closer to .10/.20 online.

[SenecaJim]

[ QUOTE ]
It took a while for people to really get their butts kicked following the advice in this book. About a year ago SSHE was the gospel according to Miller and no one would dare criticize it. Funny how things change, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can a book that gives you a guideline to poker situations and demonstrates and stresses how to think for yourself in those situations, using the tools Ed gives you, cause you to get your ass kicked?

It was the first book to really help me become a substantial winner. Funny thing is , the more I play and experience the situations and the more I reread, the more I win. Puzzling , huh?

[Badger]

What I feel "deep down" when I sit down at a poker table has zero to do with what I can expect to win. Sure practice, studying and good play may make me feel good and confident when I sit down, but then again 6 beers and some desparation has that same effect for a lot of people in Vegas.

[chicagoY]

Tell me this is a joke.

[SenecaJim]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me this is a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's note, the poster is. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[trdi]

WTF!?!? /images/graemlins/confused.gif