Flush draw odds?

[J.A.K.]

There is a simple concept that I am misunderstanding. (Guess that makes me simpleminded) Nut flush draw on the flop can call a bet of up to the pot, right? I see posts suggesting villain bet 2/3 pot to take away flush draw odds. If it is 2-1 against me at this point (2 cards to go) and I am getting over 2-1 PO I have to call, no?

[Indiana]

[ QUOTE ]
Guess that makes me simpleminded

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker is hard. The fact that you are thinking about it means that you are probably not simpleminded.

Perhaps you are mistaken about the odds? 2:1 are the odds w/ two cards to come, not one. Odds are ~4.25:1 actually not considering that any other hand would win for u. Remember, you pay for 1 card at a time.

Indy

[J.A.K.]

Ok, so the situation of "having" to hit the flush to win i.e- Js,Ts to a board of Ks,3s,6c I will be requiring 4.25-1 PO to continue the hand past the flop?

I have been playing strong flush draws(A or K high) as long as I was getting 2-1 on the flop and 4-1 on the turn, with no paired board. I guess what I need to know is what is the cutoff for going past the flop?

Thanks!

[Indiana]

roughly 4:1 on flop and 4:1 on turn, but collectively its 2:1. Why don't you post a specific hand here? I assume ur talking about NL HE so you don't need quite these odds to continue, and calling isn't always the best option (usually isn't actually) in NL as compared to Limit where you just play the board and your cards.

Indy

[J.A.K.]

Full Tilt Poker Game #398713608: Table Checkered Flag - $2/$4 - Limit Hold'em - 13:42:04 ET - 2006/01/23
Seat 1: sfenner ($253)
Seat 2: Card_Rack ($100.50)
Seat 3: dooooschbag ($114)
Seat 4: GiveMeLoot888 ($58.50)
Seat 5: spigot ($47)
Seat 6: Santa Fe Slim ($121)
Seat 7: MacSwe ($108)
Seat 8: mcsuperstuff ($67)
Seat 9: Ajacks1 ($47.50)
Ajacks1 posts the small blind of $1
sfenner posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Card_Rack [Ac Jc]
Card_Rack calls $2
dooooschbag folds
GiveMeLoot888 folds
spigot calls $2
Santa Fe Slim calls $2
MacSwe has 15 seconds left to act
MacSwe calls $2
mcsuperstuff folds
Ajacks1 calls $1
sfenner checks
*** FLOP *** [3c 6c 7s]
Ajacks1 bets $2
sfenner calls $2
Card_Rack calls $2
spigot raises to $4
Santa Fe Slim calls $4
MacSwe folds
Ajacks1 calls $2
sfenner calls $2
Card_Rack calls $2
*** TURN *** [3c 6c 7s] [2c]
Ajacks1 bets $4
sfenner calls $4
Card_Rack raises to $8
spigot folds
Santa Fe Slim calls $8
Ajacks1 folds
sfenner calls $4
*** RIVER *** [3c 6c 7s 2c] [3h]
sfenner checks
Card_Rack bets $4
Santa Fe Slim calls $4
sfenner calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Card_Rack shows [Ac Jc] (a flush, Ace high)
Santa Fe Slim mucks
sfenner mucks
Card_Rack wins the pot ($69) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $72 | Rake $3
Board: [3c 6c 7s 2c 3h]
Seat 1: sfenner (big blind) mucked [9d 5c] - a pair of Threes
Seat 2: Card_Rack showed [Ac Jc] and won ($69) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: dooooschbag didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: GiveMeLoot888 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: spigot folded on the Turn
Seat 6: Santa Fe Slim mucked [4c Kc] - a flush, King high
Seat 7: MacSwe folded on the Flop
Seat 8: mcsuperstuff (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: Ajacks1 (small blind) folded on the Turn



I am looking for a specific hand for no limit from my history...but generally something like this:

NLHE (tourney) Blinds 50/100 Action folds to Villain in SB

Villain t3000 completes
Hero BB t2500 (Js,Ts)

Flop Ks, 7s, 6c

Villain bets $150
Call? Raise? Fold?

[Indiana]

You played the Limit hand ok, not raising in order to keep plenty of people in the pot is fine. In NL its different as you have position on this guy and he makes a weak stab at the flop. This is an insta-raise to 600 and will usually take it down uncontested. If he does decide to call then you can re-evaluate on the turn. If you miss on the turn you will probably check behind unless you know something more about this guy. On the river if you still don't hit then it gets tricky and you have to know if this guy is capable of folding to another fire (which I usually do). Of course, if you hit then you can get plenty more with good bets on turn and river. Its not so much about the pot odds on the flop as NL is less about that.

Indy

[Indiana]

Please let me also say that I don't know if this is just a heads up match or a full SNG. Are you on the bubble? are you heads up?????

Indy

[J.A.K.]

The NL example was a hypothetical to give me a general idea with pot sized bet against my flush draw. I see it has alot to do with situation and reads. Was hoping for a panacea for flush draws on the flop! (i.e. call all bets of pot or less) Thanks for the indulgence, its a big help. This is a great forum.

[DrVanNostrin]

The limit hand was okay. Call the first bet because (in general) you don't want to isolate with a draw, but 3-bet the raise. Everyone has put 2 bets in, no one will fold for a 3rd so you're in no danger of losing customers. Your draw will come in 33% of the time and more if you include your aces and jacks a partial outs.

There are 5 players in the hand. So the average player will win 20% of the time. You'll win ~33% of the time. Because you'll win much more often than the average player in the hand you have an equity edge. You should push your equity edge by getting more money in now. It makes no difference that you only have a "drawing hand".

[J.A.K.]

Great, Thanks! In finding that hand I noticed I play way too passive. Had A,Q about 6 times that session in every position and limped everytime! Also, the few times I have been aggressive on these strong draws, they never get there. So I get skiddish. But this equity info reinforces their value. Would you play it different for say a lesser flush or with fewer callers?

Thanks!

[QueBob]

At the risk of hijacking the thread, but in the same train of thought.

What if the four flush comes on the turn? What are the odds of hitting the flush on the river(runner runner),still about 4-1?