Stud 8: How profitable are big pairs?

[Xellos]

Like all losing players in Stud 8 I started out playing tons of bad high hands. As time went on I narrowed it down to Jacks and better. These days I try to find reasons to fold Jacks and Queens, sometimes even Kings, as they often get me into more trouble than they seem to be worth.

My question is, how much do split high only hands like JJ-KK contribute to one's profits? I have no doubt that aces and rolled hands are profitable, but in my experience other high hands end up resulting in frustration of wondering where you should have folded or a small profit. If there was a PT Stud this would be easy to analyze, but there isn't, so I'm hoping to draw on the experience of some of the players here.

I'm certain that they are profitable, I'm just curious as to how profitable. I play 2/4 and occasionally 3/6 and even the most braindead of opponents know what my starting hand was when I play a J-K, so they can act accordingly. The power of a burried big pair is a completely different story.

Many of my problems with these hands probably come from overplaying them, but even when I play them as optimally as I can they seem to attract trouble.

I may add more thoughts/questions to this post later in the day, being sick has confused my brain and makes it hard to write what I think when I don't know what I'm thinking.

[Andy B]

High pairs in stud/8 are similar to straight draws in high-only stud. They can be marginally profitable if you play well, but most players lose money with them because they don't know when to get away from them.

Big pairs do best when heads-up. If you can't significantly limit the field, you might be best off folding them. You also need to be able to fold them when the cards fall badly. Say you raise coming with a pair of Kings and get a couple of callers. On fourth street, you don't improve, and you are looking at 65 and 75. Check and fold. Really.

I find it helpful to think of Jacks as a medium pair rather than a big pair. This is particularly true in limit hold'em, where a lot of the value of a pair of Jacks comes from flopping a set. In stud/8, you have to be able to beat everything that the low hand might back into, and sometimes the guy who started with 7654 will make Queens and Sixes.

Most of your profit in this game comes from two-way hands. If you just mucked pocket Kings every time, you wouldn't be giving up all that much.

[preiserone]

Big pairs do well heads up, especially against a worse high hand.

If you think you can thin the field and there aren't any bigger cards behind you, especially aces, I'll play most big pairs.

To answer your question, big pairs are profitable, but you have to play them in the right situations and get rid of them when your likely in trouble. Even if they know you have a big pair they are still going to draw to their low, if they hit bricks you can punish them if they decide to stay in.

Edit: Andy probably did a better job of discussing this one, so go with that.

[benwood]

I used to think that as time went on that I would develop a love/hate relationship with big split pairs.I was wrong. Now I just hate them.

[preiserone]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to think that as time went on that I would develop a love/hate relationship with big split pairs.I was wrong. Now I just hate them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, in general. In the right spots they can be gold though, just have to avoid the really bad spots.