How much did Jamie Gold tip the dealers?

[TheLurk]

I heard in NVG $1 million. If so, nobody is allowed to hate this man ever.

[JackOfSpeed]

As has been mentioned several times (try the SEARCH feature, it rocks), it was indeed $1 Million.

But your comment is asinine. If Kenneth Lay won the lottery after Enron went bust and tipped the convenience store clerk a hundred G's, would that make him un-hateable?

Ok, so that example was asinine. Instead, here's the bottom line -- he's a good tipper, and that's an admirable characteristic. But it hardly tells you all we need to know about a person.

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
As has been mentioned several times (try the SEARCH feature, it rocks), it was indeed $1 Million.

[/ QUOTE ]

He just stated in the interview I did with him that he did not and has no idea how this was started.

Tuco.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
He just stated in the interview I did with him that he did not and has no idea how this was started.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how much did he tip them?

[Tuco]

Didnt ask. One of those things I wasn't comfortable badgering him about. We asked if it was true about the 1M and he said no. If he wanted to tell how much he tipped he would have at that point. The fact taht he didnt lead me to believe he was finished with the subject.

Tuco.

[sekrah]

Who cares how much he tipped?

I wouldn't give a rats ass if he gave them $0 or $12m.

[rw61485]

I tend to think that an exceptionally large tip says a lot about a person.

Although this thread seems meaningless now that we know he didn't tip $1 million.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[sekrah]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]


Hear, Hear!


Thanks Greg.

[JackOfSpeed]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to think that an exceptionally large tip says a lot about a person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so do I. It says they're RICH.

[poincaraux]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I tend to think that an exceptionally large tip says a lot about a person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so do I. It says they're RICH.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another characteristic that says someone is RICH: they just won $12 million in a poker tournament.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I read an article in the Las Vegas paper that said the dealers averaged $60 per hour during the WSOP preliminary events, and I'll bet they got more than that during the main event, so I don't know how they can claim that they weren't adequately paid.

[NapHead]

[ QUOTE ]
I heard in NVG $1 million. If so, nobody is allowed to hate this man ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except next year's winner.

The whole notion of tipping dealers on top of the fee every player paid when they entered the tournament is ridiculous. Why should it be incumbent on the winners of tournaments to make good on any perceived shortfall dealers receive from the operating casino?

[ligastar]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]


Very refreshing and my thoughts exactly.

[technologic]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

whew makes me feel better

[Everybody Lurks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

whew makes me feel better

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto, although I was kind of not tipping out of principle because I thought many of the dealers were crappy (~25%) and/or grumpy (~15%, perhaps for good reasons on the second) and that the juice was high enough on the event anyway (which I guess is kind of what Greg was saying).

[UATrewqaz]

The amount that Gold, or anyone else, has tipped anyone for anything should be of absolutely no concern to you or any other 3rd party.

Guy A tipping Guy B for service X should only concern guy A and B.

[sketchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I read an article in the Las Vegas paper that said the dealers averaged $60 per hour during the WSOP preliminary events, and I'll bet they got more than that during the main event, so I don't know how they can claim that they weren't adequately paid.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL that is the biggest load of [censored] ever.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg,

The Dealers were not getting 3% of the prize pool from any event. I agree it really shouldn't matter to any third party how much another player tipped.

But it also isn't appropriate for third persons to be telling other players that tipping isn't appropriate especially when the argument is based on a false premise (that the Dealer's were getting of the prize pool).

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I read an article in the Las Vegas paper that said the dealers averaged $60 per hour during the WSOP preliminary events, and I'll bet they got more than that during the main event, so I don't know how they can claim that they weren't adequately paid.

[/ QUOTE ]

We didn't come anywhere near $60 hour.

[jaybert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I read an article in the Las Vegas paper that said the dealers averaged $60 per hour during the WSOP preliminary events, and I'll bet they got more than that during the main event, so I don't know how they can claim that they weren't adequately paid.

[/ QUOTE ]

We didn't come anywhere near $60 hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize, if you were making $30/hr, you are still making more than the majority of the US population right? $30/hr comes out to ~$60k/year I believe.

You're dealing cards, not doing brain surgury.

[kevJ]

i love how last year hachem was a scumbag for tipping a hundred, now it doesnt matter..

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
The amount that Gold, or anyone else, has tipped anyone for anything should be of absolutely no concern to you or any other 3rd party.

Guy A tipping Guy B for service X should only concern guy A and B.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% agreement.

I dont advertise what I tipped a bartender or waitress the other night, it's none of anyone's concern except the customer and the employee(s).

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
not doing brain surgury.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif irony.

Clearly, renumeration isn't based on how hard the task is. Just ask Neo.

The thing I don't understand is why dealers don't make all the information public. It's hard for us as poker players to get a feel for whats going on re dealer pay when its all a secret. I think the dealers would have alot more success in achieving their goal with disclosure.

Tuco.

[jaybert]

the fact i cant spell doesnt diminish the validity of my post. $30/hr (which I remember reading in a thread is about how much they're making), is GOOD money. You're doing a job that does not require that much skill, nor a degree....so why are you expecting to get paid more than jobs that do require them?

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]

The thing I don't understand is why dealers don't make all the information public.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, they are not public figures. What they make from other players is none of anyone's business except that player and the dealer. Dealers are not just some machine or second class citizen that people can tell what to do and demand to know everything about their paycheck and so on. There is a thing called privacy in this country.

In retrospect, I dont go to Best Buy and pay more of less for an item just because the store manager is making X amount of dollars. If I chose to shop there, I take what comes with it. Same with poker players and dealers.

[jaybert]

But if they're going to complain about it, and expect the winners to tip a % to make up for it, then they should in fact release how much they're making.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The thing I don't understand is why dealers don't make all the information public.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, they are not public figures. What they make from other players is none of anyone's business except that player and the dealer. Dealers are not just some machine or second class citizen that people can tell what to do and demand to know everything about their paycheck and so on. There is a thing called privacy in this country.

In retrospect, I dont go to Best Buy and pay more of less for an item just because the store manager is making X amount of dollars. If I chose to shop there, I take what comes with it. Same with poker players and dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

[sekrah]

$10/hr would be too much for an average quality dealer.

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
so why are you expecting to get paid more than jobs that do require them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, work on your reading comprehension. I'm not a dealer nor do I know what they expect. What I do know is that a person's wage can have little to do with how difficult their job is.

Tuco.

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
First, they are not public figures.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. But when they complain to the poker players that they are getting stiffed (which has happened alot in the last couple years) they would be better off telling the players what "getting stiffed" is.

[ QUOTE ]
Dealers are not just some machine or second class citizen that people can tell what to do and demand to know everything about their paycheck and so on. There is a thing called privacy in this country.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think dealers get anywhere near the respect they deserve. They have to put up with a thousand guys like Grizzle and worse. But it's a two way street. If they are going to complain, get it out in the open.

I used to date dealer from Hollywood Park. She would bitch and whine when she only made $300 on her shift. Whine that the DC was giving preferential treatment to people from his county etc. The days she made $500 in tips were standard for her. I know hardly any are this selfish, but the point is that its all relative. If she was making $65 in tips on a shift I would have had sympathy for her. $300 is alot of money.

Tuco.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think dealers get anywhere near the respect they deserve.

[/ QUOTE ]

They dont, it's been proven by reading the disrespect they get just on 2+2. One person has a problem with one dealer one time and they automatically hate and disrespect all dealers. Typical of an internet community.

[ QUOTE ]
The days she made $500 in tips were standard for her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unreal, but then again, this is LA. If i could make 1/3 of this on average, I'd be happy as could be. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sekrah]

Photoc... I've yet to meet a dealer that wasn't a selfish prick, so until I do.. they all are.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Photoc... I've yet to meet a dealer that wasn't a selfish prick, so until I do.. they all are.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is your opinion. You are entitled to it. But that isn't what this thread was about. A question was asked that no one has the right to an answer and it becomes YET ANOTHER dealer bashing/flame war.

[NapHead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Photoc... I've yet to meet a dealer that wasn't a selfish prick, so until I do.. they all are.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is your opinion. You are entitled to it. But that isn't what this thread was about. A question was asked that no one has the right to an answer and it becomes YET ANOTHER dealer bashing/flame war.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it incumbent on the players to tip the dealers?

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Photoc... I've yet to meet a dealer that wasn't a selfish prick, so until I do.. they all are.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is your opinion. You are entitled to it. But that isn't what this thread was about. A question was asked that no one has the right to an answer and it becomes YET ANOTHER dealer bashing/flame war.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it incumbent on the players to tip the dealers?

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I ever say anything about this? I just said that this thread has degenerated into yet another tipping/flame war that is quite common weekly if every other forum on here. Don't people get enough of it by now?

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]


Why is it incumbent on the players to tip the dealers?

[/ QUOTE ]

We tip people in certain professions because that's the way the economy of those jobs evolved. Why may be of interest, but that doesn't doesn't change the reality.

The futher reality is that if enough people do not tip dealers and waiters and so on, the likely results would be that it will be more and more difficult to find competent people to do those jobs. We will either have to suffer with terrible service or business owners will find it necessary to increase prices to pay wages that are high enough to attract competent workers. That means higher prices for drinks in bars and for meals in any sit-down restaurant, and higher rake in poker rooms, etc.

So the answer is that in the short run, it is not incumbent on any player to tip. Those of us who do tip are subsidizing those who don't. But it seems unlikely that this can go on for any period of time.

This discussion seems to come to a head every year at WSOP time, and every year the division on this issue seems to become wider and more vocal. And a lot of people here aren't listening to each other. There seems to be little doubt that the WSOP dealers got a raw deal from Harrah's this year. But if they complain, they are accused of being greedy and ingrates, usually by people who obviously don't understand what is going on at Harrah's.

Dealers have to be paid, and the money has to come from the players, one way or another. The argument that the house should pay them more is pointless and inane. The house doesn't pay for anything. The house passes it all through to the customers. (I don't want to burst anyone's bubble here, but the drinks at the casino aren't free either.)

[MicroBob]

Everyone - I am curious how much dealers made per hour at the WSOP.
If someone who actually KNOWS can answer that I think this might help the conversation.

This means that just making it up....or citing a source that appears to have just made it up...doesn't count.

But I'm going to start by just throwing in my worthless opinion anyway.
I can't imagine there's anyway they were making anywhere close to $60/hr and have no idea why any publication would report that.
I would tend to doubt that they even were making $30/hr, otherwise I don't think as many of the dealers would have flat-out walked off the job.

[Photoc]

MB this stuff was already discussed in the Tipping at the WSOP thread and lots did walk out. There are numbers posted in there, whether they are accurate or not, who's to say. You could ask 100 dealers and get 100 different answers as everyone of them will remember things differently.

[qoute]Everyone - I am curious how much dealers made per hour at the WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

As has been mentioned by several posters, it's no ones business but the dealers what they made. I could care less what they made and I played there as well. 95% or more of the players that played at the Rio during WSOP are not out there screaming and crying for an answer like what happens on these boards.

[NeedsMoreNuts]

[ QUOTE ]

As has been mentioned by several posters, it's no ones business but the dealers what they made. I could care less what they made and I played there as well. 95% or more of the players that played at the Rio during WSOP are not out there screaming and crying for an answer like what happens on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then the dealers need to quit bitching about not getting paid enough if they won't give exact numbers. If a dealer comes out and says "I made $X/hr working at the WSOP" then everyone would be able to say either "You deserve more, I'm tipping" or "That's a good salary, I'm not tipping."

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
i love how last year hachem was a scumbag for tipping a hundred, now it doesnt matter..

[/ QUOTE ]

You will not find me publicly criticizing anybody for the amount they tip or don' tip, Last year or this year. I reserve the right to bitch privately but don't we all bitch about about our jobs.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
not doing brain surgury.

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif irony.

Clearly, renumeration isn't based on how hard the task is. Just ask Neo.

The thing I don't understand is why dealers don't make all the information public. It's hard for us as poker players to get a feel for whats going on re dealer pay when its all a secret. I think the dealers would have alot more success in achieving their goal with disclosure.

Tuco.

[/ QUOTE ]

You may feel that way, and in a private conversation I might decide to tell the details of my income, but I certainly don't feel compelled to give that infomation to the whole world on a message forum.

[steamraise]

[ QUOTE ]
i love how last year hachem was a scumbag for tipping a hundred, now it doesnt matter..

[/ QUOTE ]

$100 split between 300+ dealers for a weeks work.

That's kinda like leaving a waitress a penny.

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
You may feel that way, and in a private conversation I might decide to tell the details of my income, but I certainly don't feel compelled to give that infomation to the whole world on a message forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, no problem. But the double standard of dealers complaining (not you specifically) and bitching about who tipped what (which should be as private as your income but isnt because many dealers quote players income and tips constantly when complaining) is too much at times.

Tuco.

[BillyC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Why is it incumbent on the players to tip the dealers?

[/ QUOTE ]

We tip people in certain professions because that's the way the economy of those jobs evolved. Why may be of interest, but that doesn't doesn't change the reality.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't quote all of Ben's post but it is extremely well put and gives a good explanation of the economics of the industry.

Some people will tip while others do not, that's life and it won't likely change. As a dealer, or anyone else in a tipped job for that matter, the sooner that fact is accepted the better. It would cut down the complaining. The amount earned from customers encompasses ALL of the people you serve. Sure, you will "like" the tippers more, but all of the customers deserve quality service in the profession that you chose.

If an establishment continually hires incompetent individuals who get tipped poorly, then it says something about what value the company puts on servicing their customers. If, on the other hand, quality individuals are not being tipped appropriately or paid directly, that is an issue of the company not servicing these employees.

As for the WSOP, Harrahs should make it clear what amount of the juice goes to the dealers so the customers can make their own value judgement on tipping an "extra" amount, if any. This is the root of this problem. Whatever Mr. Gold decided to tip, is his business. The dealers will see it, or not, in their paychecks.

Some will accept the pay and come back. Those dealers who provide top-notch service and feel shortchanged won't. It's the law of economics, as Mr Franklin put it.

[NicksDad1970]

[ QUOTE ]
$10/hr would be too much for an average quality dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they got 10$ an hour you can bet your a$$ that you wouldn't have quality dealers.

So your below average dealer would then become an awesome dealer.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg,

The Dealers were not getting 3% of the prize pool from any event. I agree it really shouldn't matter to any third party how much another player tipped.

But it also isn't appropriate for third persons to be telling other players that tipping isn't appropriate especially when the argument is based on a false premise (that the Dealer's were getting of the prize pool).

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I did not say it isn't appropriate. I said it wasn't needed. Very different.

Second, I never said that the Harrahs was giving 3% to the dealers. I said that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers. At least, that is what Harrahs told us all publicly. And 3% is plenty of money to pay the dealers very well for their work. IF the dealers were not paid well, then Harrahs ripped them off by not giving them all or most of the 3%. And, of course, Harrahs ripped all of us off also, by lying to us about the rake.

If Harrahs underpaid the dealers, then I think the dealers need to let them know it by NOT coming back next year, and forcing Harrahs to deal with a huge problem of not enough staff. Yes, that would make the 2007 WSOP suck in many ways for the players, but I don't see how else Harrahs is going to truly "get" the message that they must treat the dealers well. If all of us make it up by tipping well, then I suspect Harrahs will give less and less of the 3% to the dealers, and thus charge us more and more to play.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[NCAces]

[ QUOTE ]
As has been mentioned by several posters, it's no ones business but the dealers what they made. I could care less what they made and I played there as well. 95% or more of the players that played at the Rio during WSOP are not out there screaming and crying for an answer like what happens on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's about the dumbest thing I've heard. They want to compalin about how much they get paid, but claim that what they get paid is none of our business? Can't have one without the other.

NCAces

[charlie_t_jr]

[ QUOTE ]
As has been mentioned by several posters, it's no ones business but the dealers what they made. I could care less what they made and I played there as well. 95% or more of the players that played at the Rio during WSOP are not out there screaming and crying for an answer like what happens on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, it's no one's business, but that doesn't answer the question that was raised by Raymer...in regards to the 3% that was supposed to go to the dealers.

That was a nice history lesson above about how and why we tip in our economy, but isn't it now pretty standard in even the small buy-in tourneys that I play in Tunica that a % is taken out for the dealers.

Do the dealers (according to tourney ads) getting a % of the buy-in/entry fee still feel stiffed when the players who cash don't tip 3-5% of their winnings?

And back to Raymer's point again, if they are getting the % of the fee, are players still obligated to tip?

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As has been mentioned by several posters, it's no ones business but the dealers what they made. I could care less what they made and I played there as well. 95% or more of the players that played at the Rio during WSOP are not out there screaming and crying for an answer like what happens on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's about the dumbest thing I've heard. They want to compalin about how much they get paid, but claim that what they get paid is none of our business? Can't have one without the other.

NCAces

[/ QUOTE ]

The "to tip or not to tip" question has been discussed in many threads, and is never going to be resolved.

The original issue in this thread is whether Gold made a commitment about tipping and whether he followed through on it if he did.

As to dealers complaining, the dealer complaints I have heard here regarding the WSOP revolve around a similar issue: what did Harrahs commit to and did they follow through.

The Gold story keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. I've seen nothing concrete to show that he promised a $1 million tip. And as the story evolves, it seems less and less likely that he could if he wanted to.

The Harrahs story appears equally muddled. It is also unclear as to exactly what Harrahs committed to do for the dealers, and they are taking refuge in corporate mumbo-jumbo. My own conclusions are that the dealers certainly did not get what they expected, that some of those expectations were the result of dealer misunderstanding and/or corporate hype, and that the details of dealer compensation were not clear (and not on paper) from the start. The last item is a roadmap for a trainwreck, if I may mix a metaphor.

[El Diablo]

Photoc,

"I dont go to Best Buy and pay more of less for an item just because the store manager is making X amount of dollars"

What does that have to do with anything? The more germane comparison is whether or not you tip less if you go to a restaurant and it says "gratuity included" in the bill. And certainly, if the restaurant was increasing prices 20% and giving that money to waiters as a tip, you'd want to know this and tip accordingly, right?

[tourney guy]

Let's clarify some issues here.

1) The dealers do not get 3% of the prize pool, and they never have. 2-3% has always was withheld for the staff, depending on the buy-in for the event. Out of that 70% goes to the dealers. Thus, in 2005, for an event that withheld 3%, about 2.1% of the prize pool went to the dealers, while .9% of the prize pool went to the assorted staff who worked the event.

2) This fact was clearly spelled out on all WSOP literature in 2005. For example, in a $1,500 no-limit event, it literally said "6% withheld for entry fee, 3% for the staff.

3) In 2006, for the $1500 events, all it said was, '9% withheld from prize pool.' What is that?? How much goes to the dealers, and how much goes to the house?

4) I think it was assumed by everyone that the breakdown was the same in 2006. I have spoken to over 20 dealers who dealt in both 2005 and 2006, and it is still not clear exactly was was said on Day One of 2006. The bottom line is that the dealer cut was much closer to 1.5%.

5) The dealer concerns should be directed solely at Harrahs.

a) Dealers swiped in to work and did not ever deal. The got paid for doing nothing and it watered down the hourly rate. HET did not do a simple audit of the dealers, and the DCs they hired did an abyssmal job of organizing the dealer rotations.

b) Way too many dealers were hired in 2006.

c) The dealers never asked what the applicable toke rate was, and Harrahs never published it to anyone. When I work at a job, I usually am told what my rate of pay is, and if it involves prize money, GCB requires that the rate of pay out of the prize pool be published......it still has not to this very day!!!!! Why the dealers allow this is beyond me.

6) In a culture where people were accused of stealing and not asked to return during the past 2 years (false accusations, lies and Bulls%$t innuendo), this is the first year where the dealers literally got robbed, by HET!!

So, the question exists...."should the players who win all the big prizes make up for the theft HET put on the dealers??"

I say no, Jamie Gold has no responsibility to make up for what Harrahs held back from the dealers in 2006. One has to understand that in the ME this year, monies in the area of 5 million dollars was withheld from the prize pool. If the powers that be cannot say upfront what the dealers are going to get out of that, then that's the issue. The dealers need to take it up with HET if the wage is not acceptable.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
I said that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers. At least, that is what Harrahs told us all publicly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you tell me who from harrah's told you this. We were not supposed to get 3% of the prize pool this year. We didn't get three percent of the prize pool from any event.

If you can identify a person who represented to you that 3% was going to the dealer, I would appreciate the information, because I will file a complaint with Gaming about the fact that Harrah's misrepresented the portion of the prize they were talking.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As has been mentioned by several posters, it's no ones business but the dealers what they made. I could care less what they made and I played there as well. 95% or more of the players that played at the Rio during WSOP are not out there screaming and crying for an answer like what happens on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's about the dumbest thing I've heard. They want to compalin about how much they get paid, but claim that what they get paid is none of our business? Can't have one without the other.

NCAces

[/ QUOTE ]

You say that, yet I don't see a whole lot of complaining here about what we got paid. We do have complaints but for the most part we aren't complaining publicly.

I certainly didn't come here complaining about what we got paid (no that doesn't mean I am satisfied -- it means I see no value in complaining here). I came into this thread to correct misinformation.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
a) Dealers swiped in to work and did not ever deal. The got paid for doing nothing and it watered down the hourly rate. HET did not do a simple audit of the dealers, and the DCs they hired did an abyssmal job of organizing the dealer rotations.

[/ QUOTE ]

this particular issue was pretty much resolved when Harrah's agreed to stop splitting tokes on an hourly basis and went to a per down basis. this change improve dthe situation greatly and had it not happened I believe the number of dealers who would have ended up walking would have crippled the Series.

[ QUOTE ]
b) Way too many dealers were hired in 2006.

[/ QUOTE ]

on top of that it was not clear who was doing the hiring. Late in the series when dealers complained the DC's assured us that no more dealers were being hired, yet everyday there were brand new dealers showing up.Nobody admits to hiring them, but they were obviously hired by someone.

[ QUOTE ]
c) The dealers never asked what the applicable toke rate was, and Harrahs never published it to anyone. When I work at a job, I usually am told what my rate of pay is, and if it involves prize money, GCB requires that the rate of pay out of the prize pool be published......it still has not to this very day!!!!! Why the dealers allow this is beyond me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew how much the dealers were getting out of each event, and I believe that every dealer there knew. But the problem is that apparently the players all think it was higher than it actually was.

Harrah's refused to allow us to have a toke committe to oversee the collection and distribution of the tokes. A toke committee is standard, and thio Pit dealers have a toke committee so this should not have been foreign to them. Based on this we have no reason to belive that the tokes were properly collected or distributed.

[ QUOTE ]
So, the question exists...."should the players who win all the big prizes make up for the theft HET put on the dealers??"

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually nobody asked that question. I have never heard it suggested that it was the case. Is it appropriate to toke . . .Absolutely . . . Is a player obligated to Toke? . . . Absolutely not.

But when a person is deciding how much if anything to toke, it doesn't help to have people misrepresenting to them the amount already withheld for the dealers, and certainly people shoudln't be getting involve din talking players out of toking (there are many stories circulating of professional players telling people not to toke over the past two years -- i am sure some of the stroies are BS, but i'm sure some of the stories are true)

[52s]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew how much the dealers were getting out of each event, and I believe that every dealer there knew. But the problem is that apparently the players all think it was higher than it actually was.


[/ QUOTE ]

Because 3% is what was published in 2005, and 3% is pretty much the standard from everything that I've personally read, so everyone presumed that the staff were getting 3%.

If you're saying the staff got less than 3%, then it's all Harrahs' fault for not publically publishing the correct % that is being taken out for the dealers (as is done on pretty much ALL tournament literature I've seen in Vegas).

Holy f'n hell Harrahs is so horrible.

[ QUOTE ]
Harrah's refused to allow us to have a toke committe to oversee the collection and distribution of the tokes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would've walked out right there. This is a recipe for f'ing the dealers straight up the A. And that indeed they did.

What a joke.

BTW, here's the published 2005 and 2006 breakdowns... thankfully pokerpages is good at keeping this information:

2005
The following percentages will be withheld from Buy-In for each event: (Buy-in/Tournament staff/House) ($500.00/3%/7%) ($1,000/3%/6%) ($1,500/3%/5%) ($2,000/3%/5%) ($2,500/3%/5%) ($3,000/3%/5%) ($5,000/2%/4%) ($10,000/2%/4%) -Harrah's Management reserves the right to change or cancel any event at any time. All events will be held at Rio Suites with the exception of the final 2 days of the WSOP Main Event which will be held at The Horseshoe Downtown, Las Vegas.

2006
The following percentages will be withheld from each buy-in for each event: Buy-in Take-Out : $500 10% $1,000.00 9% $1,500.00 9% $2,000.00 9% $2,500.00 8% $3,000.00 8% $5,000.00 6% $10,000.00 6%

[Photoc]

It's been documented in at least one interview with a Harrahs manager and in the other WSOP Tipping thread that the dealers got 1.5% of the prize pool.

[52s]

I remember that because I think I C+P'd that bit over (it was from after the first major walk-out), and at that time psandman said that was was quoted was wrong as well.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
I remember that because I think I C+P'd that bit over (it was from after the first major walk-out), and at that time psandman said that was was quoted was wrong as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the quote darticle that you refer to said that the dealers were getting 2.5% of all the events other than the ME. That claim was in fact incorrect.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, here's the published 2005 and 2006 breakdowns... thankfully pokerpages is good at keeping this information:

2005
The following percentages will be withheld from Buy-In for each event: (Buy-in/Tournament staff/House) ($500.00/3%/7%) ($1,000/3%/6%) ($1,500/3%/5%) ($2,000/3%/5%) ($2,500/3%/5%) ($3,000/3%/5%) ($5,000/2%/4%) ($10,000/2%/4%) -Harrah's Management reserves the right to change or cancel any event at any time. All events will be held at Rio Suites with the exception of the final 2 days of the WSOP Main Event which will be held at The Horseshoe Downtown, Las Vegas.

2006
The following percentages will be withheld from each buy-in for each event: Buy-in Take-Out : $500 10% $1,000.00 9% $1,500.00 9% $2,000.00 9% $2,500.00 8% $3,000.00 8% $5,000.00 6% $10,000.00 6%


[/ QUOTE ]

maybe its just the skeptic in me, but If I simply read those two breakdowns, I would be assuming that the Dealers were getting less in 2006 then listed in 2005. I would assume that reason the vig was not broken down was because harrah's was hiding the fact that they were keeping more.

[52s]

On a sidenote, it's nice to see that Harrahs went and squeezed an extra 1% of vig out of the 1500 and 2000 event prizepools in 2006.

[ QUOTE ]
2005 - ($1,500/3%/5%) ($2,000/3%/5%)
2006 - $1,500.00 9% $2,000.00 9%

[/ QUOTE ]

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
The Dealers were not getting 3% of the prize pool from any event.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is from the dealer who refuses to say how much they did get, so why should anybody believe him?

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
We didn't come anywhere near $60 hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of like you didn't get 3%, but you won't tell us how much you did get, huh? I think I'll believe the Las Vegas Review Journal over some anonymous whiney dealer who refuses to back up anything that he says.

[TPupAZ]

I'd tip the min.

[censored] em.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing I don't understand is why dealers don't make all the information public. It's hard for us as poker players to get a feel for whats going on re dealer pay when its all a secret. I think the dealers would have alot more success in achieving their goal with disclosure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! The dealers want us to think that they are working for slave wages, but they refuse to tell us how much they make, which makes no sense at all. They should back up their complaints with numbers or stop complaining.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't feel compelled to give that infomation to the whole world on a message forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then stop bitching about it on a message forum! All you are doing is giving dealers a bad name. Trust me, you are not helping your cause by the comments you have made here.

[PokerSlut]

[ QUOTE ]
The amount that Gold, or anyone else, has tipped anyone for anything should be of absolutely no concern to you or any other 3rd party.

Guy A tipping Guy B for service X should only concern guy A and B.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please convince my wife of this. Every time we go out to eat, she argues that I tip too much.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The amount that Gold, or anyone else, has tipped anyone for anything should be of absolutely no concern to you or any other 3rd party.

Guy A tipping Guy B for service X should only concern guy A and B.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please convince my wife of this. Every time we go out to eat, she argues that I tip too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because your tips have been in proportion to the waitress' proportions.

[flub]

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares how much he tipped?

I wouldn't give a rats ass if he gave them $0 or $12m.

[/ QUOTE ]

So why are you reading this thread?

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Dealers were not getting 3% of the prize pool from any event.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is from the dealer who refuses to say how much they did get, so why should anybody believe him?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well lets see . . for one thing I seem to be the only person here with actual knowledge of what the dealers were receiving. So you can believe me or you can choose to believe all the people who don't have actual knowledge of the amount.

Its up to you -- believe whatever you want.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We didn't come anywhere near $60 hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of like you didn't get 3%, but you won't tell us how much you did get, huh? I think I'll believe the Las Vegas Review Journal over some anonymous whiney dealer who refuses to back up anything that he says.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, I'm not here whining. Second as for backing up what I say. There is nothing i could do to back up what I say short of showing you my paystubs, and i don't feel compelled to share those sorts details with an anonymous jackass on the internet. Actually even If I showed you my paystubs you would still say I didn't prove anything because Harrah's wrote the paystubs in such a way that they only have a total amount they don't show an actual toke rate.

As for the Review Journal, have you even seen this article you choose to believe? Who wrote it and what is his basis of knowledge?

[psandman]

Really.


See the thing about you is you have something in your mind and you are convinced I'm saying it. Show us all the link to the post where i complain about how much anyone left?. I didn't start this thread. I came in to point out misstatements that were made.

[rabbitlover]

Greg, don't take this as gospel, but having spent a month there the dealers I spoke to led me to believe that they only received
1 1/2%, and the other half went to other floor people. I'm sure none were working dual rate during the WSOP.

I think Blair Rodman might be privy to what was really paid.

In the end I feel it is Harrah's responsibility to pay a fair wage. The rub is going to come when they keep raising the fees the players' pay.

Good Cards.

[CardSharpCook]

So.... how much did Gold tip?

[growlers]

[ QUOTE ]


What does that have to do with anything? The more germane comparison is whether or not you tip less if you go to a restaurant and it says "gratuity included" in the bill. And certainly, if the restaurant was increasing prices 20% and giving that money to waiters as a tip, you'd want to know this and tip accordingly, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo! This is the point I made in the other thread and illustrates the whole issue, at least in my mind. I think that although of course this has been beaten to death, it is worthy of discussion since this knowledge of what Harrah's is taking out impacts how SOME of us would tip. It may or may not have impacted what Gold tipped, but it would impact what I tipped. If you told me that the dealers got 0.1% of the pool I would tip much more than if they got 5%, I think it is a perfectly reasonable issue to discuss.

[Wongboy]

I have no idea what dealers make where I play. I do know that some of them have nicer watches than I wear and/or drive nicer cars, which is an indication to me that they are not hurting. I tip accordingly.

[chube]

[ QUOTE ]
So.... how much did Gold tip?

[/ QUOTE ]

Using the 1.5% as a minimum, which doesn't seem to be disputed, Gold's tip was (at least):

($12,000,0000 / 0.985)-$12,000,000

= $182,741.12 PLUS whatever else he decided on top of that.

Whether it was $100 like Hachem was rumoured last year, $0, or more, it was certainly sufficient.

[CardSharpCook]

chube? or chode?

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't feel compelled to share those sorts details with an anonymous jackass on the internet.

As for the Review Journal, have you even seen this article you choose to believe? Who wrote it and what is his basis of knowledge?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course I read it. If you want details, go read it yourself. I don't feel compelled to share those sorts of details with an anonymous jackass on the internet.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
Well lets see . . for one thing I seem to be the only person here with actual knowledge of what the dealers were receiving.

[/ QUOTE ]

This means absolutely nothing, since you refuse to disclose the knowledge that you claim to have.

[wpr101]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't really matter. Given the extremely high vig charged by Harrahs, and the fact that 3% of each prize pool was supposed to be for the dealers, no tip is needed. And you're not a cheapskate for not tipping. It has been, or was supposed to have been, taken care of by Harrahs through the rake.

If the dealers weren't paid enough this year, then Harrahs screwed them, not the players.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I chopped 3 some $60 mtt at the Golden Nugget. At the end of it the tournament director strongly suggested we tip and that it would be split 30 ways. I was thinking why the heck would I tip if it's split so much. So I gave $2 on my 1k win lol. The other guys gave like 15ish i think.

[bottomset]

1.5% of the prizepool is over 1.3million

how many dealer hours were there?

[rabbitlover]

[ QUOTE ]

We will either have to suffer with terrible service or business owners will find it necessary to increase prices to pay wages that are high enough to attract competent workers. That means higher prices for drinks in bars and for meals in any sit-down restaurant, and higher rake in poker rooms, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, but like most things, this can change.
I would encourage the dealers to examine when the top brass at Harrah's decides to pat themselves on the back for a job well done (with a 5 million $$$ bonus) to possibly consider speaking with a union representative.

And yes Harrahs will try to screw the players for the fees, but that too has it's limits. Lets hope that the brains at Harrahs who feel that they are the sole reason for their success come to the realization that a profit of several million off the Series is enough and it would be best to spread the joy. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Pokerprowannabe]

I didn't read all posts but my comment is NO winner should be forced with a decission of how much they should tip in a tournament like the WSOP, or any other big tournament for that matter. They should be paid a pre-set ammount depending on the prize pool and that should be that. I feel they should be paid WELL but for a winner to make that decission is just silly.

Kinda like when you go to a restaurant and have more than 8 people and the gratuity is "added for you". With a prize pool of 5-6 figures, that should be subtracted from the total prize pool from the beginning.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So.... how much did Gold tip?

[/ QUOTE ]

Using the 1.5% as a minimum, which doesn't seem to be disputed, Gold's tip was (at least):

($12,000,0000 / 0.985)-$12,000,000

= $182,741.12 PLUS whatever else he decided on top of that.

Whether it was $100 like Hachem was rumoured last year, $0, or more, it was certainly sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so incorrect it's not even funny. In actuality, every player tipped $150. The tips were taken from the prize pool before there was a winner, not after. 1.5% of 10,000 = $150/player.

[psandman]

All the downs dealt from July 28th to the end shared in the main event Prize Pool.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
So.... how much did Gold tip?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea. Unfortunately the way things are set-up only those who were actually present will know. I could not tell you how much anyone tipped, only rumors.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


What does that have to do with anything? The more germane comparison is whether or not you tip less if you go to a restaurant and it says "gratuity included" in the bill. And certainly, if the restaurant was increasing prices 20% and giving that money to waiters as a tip, you'd want to know this and tip accordingly, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo! This is the point I made in the other thread and illustrates the whole issue, at least in my mind. I think that although of course this has been beaten to death, it is worthy of discussion since this knowledge of what Harrah's is taking out impacts how SOME of us would tip. It may or may not have impacted what Gold tipped, but it would impact what I tipped. If you told me that the dealers got 0.1% of the pool I would tip much more than if they got 5%, I think it is a perfectly reasonable issue to discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

And anyone at the event who asked would be told what the dealers percentage was.

[gwhiz_612]

I think the dealers should organize and do a walk out of next years main event. This would make history and make a much needed statement to Harrah's.

[NoxKo]

Now Phil Gordon is saying on ESPN's web site that Gold is reported to have tipped the dealers $2 Million (???)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/poker/columns/story?columnist=gordon_phil&id=2550106

[ QUOTE ]
Jamie "Ari" Gold, the winner of the championship event, is reported to have tipped $2 million of his $12 million prize money to the dealers and floor staff of the WSOP. While Mr. Gold is free to do whatever he wants with his well-deserved money, I fear that his actions (from a self-described non-poker player) will haunt us. The pros know that the dealers are "toked" from the rake -- and we're paying a pretty significant rake, folks. For the championship event alone, Harrah's withheld more than $5 million from the prize pool. Jamie, perhaps overwhelmed by his win, will make all future winners look like cheapskates and, perhaps, give the dealers (who did a marvelous job, by the way) an unrealistic expectation for future tournaments. It is the belief of most full-time players that when we are paying 6 percent to 10 percent juice of the entry fee to the house to enter tournaments, it is completely up to the house to compensate the dealers and ensure that they are paid a fair wage for their services. Were I to become WSOP commissioner for a day, I would make it a standard policy to discourage or even ban tipping the dealers -- but I'd also give them a nice little 25 percent to 30 percent base-rate pay hike.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Kevmath]

The $2m tip was another rumor that came out before the final table started. Phil probably wrote this article around that time.

[StregaChess]

[ QUOTE ]
If all of us make it up by tipping well, then I suspect Harrahs will give less and less of the 3% to the dealers, and thus charge us more and more to play.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree.....
If they see a clear path to screw someone they will. Even good companies use creative justification for their actions. My health insurance morphed this year into an HSA account with $50 a month premium. Last year life partners got covered just like a spouse. This year I’m taxed on the “companies” contribution on their share of the premium. So….. “x” number of dollars in imputed income (that’s unverifiable) I’m paying $90 in additional taxes per month, which is almost double the actual premium.

OK, my point……

I won’t say whom I work for but we (*cough*) were HP for many decades until they spun us off. The old and new firm are both angels when it comes to being fair to employees, but even in the Garden of Eden evilness sneaks in and more and more we are getting screwed over in little ways…

The way big business works, if the tipping grew too large Harrahs would start charging the dealers some bogus administrate fees.

Life is just that crazy….

[amead]

psandman -

The dealers obviously get paid more than enough, and it isn't close.

Note: Anyone who truly feels like they weren't compensated fairly would have immediately came in and said, "I worked my ass off and only took home 12$ per hour".

Those saying things like, "you don't have any idea how much we got, but it wasn't <blah>", are simply saying that they got paid a ton, but are greedy and want more.

For shame.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
Now Phil Gordon is saying on ESPN's web site that Gold is reported to have

[/ QUOTE ]

So this is third or fourth hand.

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So.... how much did Gold tip?

[/ QUOTE ]

Using the 1.5% as a minimum, which doesn't seem to be disputed, Gold's tip was (at least):

($12,000,0000 / 0.985)-$12,000,000

= $182,741.12 PLUS whatever else he decided on top of that.

Whether it was $100 like Hachem was rumoured last year, $0, or more, it was certainly sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so incorrect it's not even funny. In actuality, every player tipped $150. The tips were taken from the prize pool before there was a winner, not after. 1.5% of 10,000 = $150/player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be interested to hear from an economics person if this is a correct way of thinking of it.

I would think that the tip from the vig can only be imputed to the players that cashed. If the prize pool is reduced by 1.5% for a tip, that's that much less cash paid to the players who cash, effectively, they are tipping. But the players who don't cash aren't affected by the tip vig. They're down 10,000 dollars regardless of how much the tip is. If fifty percent were taken out for a tip, that would have a huge impact on the cashers, but absolutely none on the out of the money players.

Am I way off on that thinking? (Obviously what I said may not be exactly correct, because the tip vig may change the number of places paid out, but broadly speaking, is this way off?

I'm thinking of it this way, envision a 10 person, winner take all, sit-n-go with a thousand per person in the prize pool. There was also some vig on top, but none of the vig goes to tips. At the end the winner gives a two thousand dollar tip. Has each player now tipped two hundred dollars? Say he tips ten bucks. Has each player tipped a buck? [Cheap bastards]. If a tip vig had been taken out of the prize pool instead, how does that change things?

--Zetack

[Bobby Cannoli]

[ QUOTE ]
1.5% of the prizepool is over 1.3million

how many dealer hours were there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's do a little guessing....

Assume 1.5% went to the dealers, or about $1.3M.
Assume there were 500 dealers hired for the WSOP.
Assume each dealer worked 10 hours a day for 45 days (over whole WSOP, not just the ME).

That would make 225,000 dealer hours. That works out to $5.77 in tips per dealer hour.

If there were only 350 dealers, averaging 400 total work hours each, that's $9.28/dealer hour in tokes.

So it's probably safe to say, that it was $10-12/dealer hour, at most.

This is likely less than dealers normally make (in tips) in an hour dealing at their home casinos.

However, the other offsetting factor is, is there more money from the other 40-ish events, that gets thrown in the tip pool? If so, then it probably works out to a fairly nice hourly tip rate /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bobby

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1.5% of the prizepool is over 1.3million

how many dealer hours were there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, let's do a little guessing....

Assume 1.5% went to the dealers, or about $1.3M.
Assume there were 500 dealers hired for the WSOP.
Assume each dealer worked 10 hours a day for 45 days (over whole WSOP, not just the ME).

That would make 225,000 dealer hours. That works out to $5.77 in tips per dealer hour.

If there were only 350 dealers, averaging 400 total work hours each, that's $9.28/dealer hour in tokes.

So it's probably safe to say, that it was $10-12/dealer hour, at most.

This is likely less than dealers normally make (in tips) in an hour dealing at their home casinos.

However, the other offsetting factor is, is there more money from the other 40-ish events, that gets thrown in the tip pool? If so, then it probably works out to a fairly nice hourly tip rate /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bobby

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for guessing and proving absolutely nothing.

[El Diablo]

Photoc,

"This is so incorrect it's not even funny. In actuality, every player tipped $150. The tips were taken from the prize pool before there was a winner, not after. 1.5% of 10,000 = $150/player."

The guys who do not cash receive no money, so whether 1% of 10% is taken out as a tip is irrelevant to them. The amount of money each person who cashes receives is reduced by the percent withheld from the prizepool. If nothing were withheld, these people would each receive x% money. Therefore, the poster you were responding to is completely correct. The tip is effectively taken as a percentage of the amount that each person wins, not "$150 per person" as you state.

If you still don't understand the point, think of it like this. Make a chart of how much everyone would take home if no tip money was withheld from the prize pool. Now write a figure next to that, which is the amount of money the person takes home if tip money is withheld from the prize pool. That's how much they are tipping.

[tourney guy]

This is beginning to border on laughable.

1) Not a single person will say with any certainty that the dealers made "x%" of the the buy-in as a tip. Why is that???

2) The floor got NOTHING BUT PAYROLL FROM THE WSOP!!!!!!!!!

3) Harass....uh....Harrahs took some of the 3% from the staff toke last year and used it to pay the floor salary.

4) They also took some of the dealer toke and used it for payroll.

5) The rest they kept as revenue.

Now, as to what Gold actually tipped versus his implied tip. Blair Rodman has it exactly right. The money taken from the prize pool was never intended to be cut into by the house as juice. Also, it was understood that the players would never have to leave any additional money, that their collective toke was taken ahead of time.

Now, HET took some of the 3% as revenue, and the dealers, making considerably less than in the past, want the players to make up the money.

The problem is the players already fund all of this to the tune of 6-9%!!!!!!!!!!

It seems incumbant on HET, not Jamie Gold, to take care of the dealers.

However, as I have stated to Blair Rodman, and I am sure other players agree, unless dealers and players stop playing the WSOP, expect more of the same carnage.

Who is going to be the man to lead the charge to get people not to play the WSOP??????

That would be a courageous man. Meanwhile, I do my part by not playing in a WSOP event since 2003.

Meanwhile, I expect to hear some angry dealers come Friday when the last paychecks are cut....I predict it right now.

In past years, the staff would know within 1 day after the event what they were getting as a toke. This year, it is some secret.

If one continues to work with WSOP.....all I can say is you get what you deserve.

[tourney guy]

I might add.....the question of "what did Jamie Gold tip" is not relevant anymore.

The question is, "what is the overall tip pool"?

That accurately states the question.

In actuality, Jamie, and every other player, had already tipped before they ever played a hand.

[Bobby Cannoli]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for guessing and proving absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome. I derive much pleasure from setting off people who are so easily annoyed /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Zetack]

[ QUOTE ]
Photoc,

"This is so incorrect it's not even funny. In actuality, every player tipped $150. The tips were taken from the prize pool before there was a winner, not after. 1.5% of 10,000 = $150/player."

The guys who do not cash receive no money, so whether 1% of 10% is taken out as a tip is irrelevant to them. The amount of money each person who cashes receives is reduced by the percent withheld from the prizepool. If nothing were withheld, these people would each receive x% money. Therefore, the poster you were responding to is completely correct. The tip is effectively taken as a percentage of the amount that each person wins, not "$150 per person" as you state.

If you still don't understand the point, think of it like this. Make a chart of how much everyone would take home if no tip money was withheld from the prize pool. Now write a figure next to that, which is the amount of money the person takes home if tip money is withheld from the prize pool. That's how much they are tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]


El Diablo, I agree with your perspective, see my post above.

However, to be fair, I do happen to know an absolutely brilliant economist (Without getting into her pretty impressive credentials, I think its a pretty rare day she's not the smartest person in the room, regardless of what room it is) and she says it can be considered either way:

[ QUOTE ]
If I understand it correctly, 1.5% of 87,730,000 went to dealer tips. I
guess you could think of that as 1.5% from each person's entry fee, or you
could think of it as a slightly larger percent of each person's winnings (it
has to be a slightly larger percent to make up for the fact that the total
winnings sum to less than 87,730,000 because of the 6% vig taken out). I
think it is just a matter of how you view it, and I don't think economic
theory would argue for one view over another.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm with you though, El, since it doesn't make any difference at all to the players who don't cash, heck you could hold out 90 percent for tipping and it would'nt effect the bottom line of the non-cahsers, I view the tip as being paid by the folks who make it in the money.

--Zetack

[sketchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Dealers were not getting 3% of the prize pool from any event.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is from the dealer who refuses to say how much they did get, so why should anybody believe him?

[/ QUOTE ]

because every single dealer who dealt will confirm he's right.

and no one has said what we made... BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T BEEN PAID IN FULL YET.

[Analyst]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Using the 1.5% as a minimum, which doesn't seem to be disputed, Gold's tip was (at least):

($12,000,0000 / 0.985)-$12,000,000

= $182,741.12 PLUS whatever else he decided on top of that.

Whether it was $100 like Hachem was rumoured last year, $0, or more, it was certainly sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so incorrect it's not even funny. In actuality, every player tipped $150. The tips were taken from the prize pool before there was a winner, not after. 1.5% of 10,000 = $150/player.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so incorrect it's not even funny. Casinos make money not by collecting losing bets, but by paying winners at less than the correct odds. For example, they make money by paying $70 rather than $80 for a winning $10 bet on 10 the hardway at the craps table.

The same holds at a poker tournament. In the same fashion, they (Harrahs, floor staff, etc.) make money by paying out less than the full amount collected. This only impacts the winners, not the losers.

[sketchy1]

all preliminary events i believe 2.1% was set asside for the dealers. in the $50k i believe it was like 1.2%. in the $10k events it was 1.4% i believe, 1.5% or more in the $5k events.

that % i gave you is a % of the WHOLE prize pool. x% was "raked" and of that x% so much was the % that the dealers took. just for simplicities sake, my #'s are the # you should use to figure out how much the dealer toke was for each event.

there were some other issues no one has addressed. all the boxes that were for satellite/cash game tokes were locked and i believe there was one dealer on hand to verify toke counts. i don't know who this dealer was or if they even existed. however, there's little doubt that money could have easily been skimmed off the top here from someone.

the major issue was the first two or three weeks, we were paid based on hours worked. so if we brought in (total random figure, reflects no real value to how much we made in tokes at any time) $1,000,000 in a week, and there was 50,000 man hours, every hour would be worth $20. so if you worked 40 hours one week, you'd make all of $800.

everyone keeps saying how $30 an hour is more than the majority of the US makes, but no one realizes as a whole, we didn't make $30 an hour. i'll get my final check in about 7 hours, and i'll have an idea then. but harrah's never was good about reporting your # of hours worked on your check, so it might be a total estimate. i'd say we made about $25 an hour. that might be good money but everyone is really ignoring how much harrah's is screwing everyone. i made probably close to the average amount of $ earned at the WSOP for the whole run, and i made half as much as someone who dealt at the Bellagio $25k 2 week tournament made per hour.

most dealers aren't complaining about players not toking. sure, we'd all love it, and considering there was like $40 million in prize money divided up among the final 9, it would have been nice if they left something. but i didn't expect it and don't hold it against them, considering how bad harrah's is raking the events.

the real issue is how harrah's continues to strong arm their dealers, and how they keep raising the players rake. it's not working out. they need to either give the dealers a larger % cut out of the prize pool, or start paying a higher hourly wage on top of the tokes. you might think that $25 an hour is great, but when you consider that A) we're paying taxes instead of it being all in an envelope, B) many people are staying in hotels & apartments and there goes about (on average) at least a quarter of what you made over the course of the WSOP, and C) players don't tip as well in cash or satellites (as well as tournaments) simply because they know that tokes are pooled. why tip a good dealer when they will share that with the bad ones?

next year harrah's should just pay the dealers $8 an hour, hire less dealers (there was far too many at the start, even more than they needed (if they hadn't paid based on hours, not as many would have walked out, thus negating the fact that they were short dealers from the last few weeks to the end)), pay per down, and give the dealers maybe a half a % extra in the tokes.

[CardSharpCook]

This is so incorrect it's not even funny.

(I just felt like saying that)

[52s]

This whole topic is exactly what Harrahs wants, especially if you read Photoc's post regarding what they're thinking of doing for 2007.

Harrah's WANTS this to be "dealers vs. players", when it's really a case of "dealers vs. Harrahs", and everyone's falling right through the trap door.

Bottom line, it's corporate greed from Harrahs.

The standard in all tourneys is 3% to the staff, from there cut about .9% to the floor, 2.1% to the dealers. Harrahs chopped this down even further, refusing to let the floor get tips (there's an extra .9% in the coffers), AND cutting into the dealers' portion (another .6% or so depending on the event).

On top of that they upped the juice 1% on the 1.5k and 2k events right under everyone's noses, and if the rumors are true, they want to jack up the juice even MORE to avoid shortening their own coffers.

The lack of a toke committee makes matter worse as it allows Harrahs to plow the dealers dry without giving them any representation.

As far as how the money is split, the system that is prevalently used by Bellagio/WPT (and works) is that all the money in the tip pool is added together from all the tournaments/satellites, all the downs that were dealt throughout the entirety of the tournament(s)/satelites are added up, and then they do simple division, $$$ divded by # of total downs to come up with the per down rate, then just multiply that rate by the # of downs each dealer did during the entirety of the whole thing to come up with each dealer's pay.

For example, dealers that dealt the Bellagio 5-Diamond (w/$25k WPT Championship) dealt the 2 to 2 1/2 weeks of events, and then got paid at the end all in one envelope for all their tourney/sat downs.

WSOP being a different beast since it goes 6-7 weeks, they paid out weekly, which meant that what they might've done is go toke pool from a single tournamant divided by the number of downs that were dealt in said tournament. So the exact rate a dealer got would jump from tourney to tourney... one tourney they might've gotten $15/down, another $23/down, another $17/down, and so forth. But since they get paid for a week on one check, all the numbers are jumbled together, and no one can give a definite number.

Another thing that should be noted is that the WSOP dealers, in getting all their $$$ put on a check, had all their taxes taken out to the exact dollar. In Bellagio/WPT tourneys, the $$$ is given in cash, with the dealers going by a tip compliance rate.

Also, alot of WSOP dealers travel to Vegas to do the event, and Harrahs does not compensate for housing and transportation. This isn't the typical corporate job where those items can be written off on the expense report, and do nut cut into the employee's pay. For dealers, they have to pay for housing and trans out-of-pocket from the $$$ they make from Harrahs, $$$ that Harrahs has already taxed to the last penny.

To put it in simpler terms, it would be a company sending a rep in advertising out to a convention in Las Vegas, and telling them they had zero expense account, but rather, while they were out there working, they had to pay for hotel and trans out of their own pocket, with zero re-imbursements.

That's the plight of the WSOP dealers. So what may look like, let's say, $30/hour, is in real terms $15/hour.

(One last sidenote, anyone trying to figure out how many downs might've been dealt in an event, the dealers normally get in the box one hour before the start of the event in order to put out chips/secure chip bags, get the cards ready, etc. So for the Main Event, in the four Day 1s alone, with 200 tables starting every day, there may have been 400 "dead downs", as they're called, before a card was even dealt, adding up to 1600 downs alone - the peeps who actually dealt the event can confirm if they wish how early they had to get into the box to get things prepared.)

[IronUnkind]

[ QUOTE ]
And, of course, Harrahs ripped all of us off also, by lying to us about the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg:

Would you consider this an actionable offense?

[ed8383]

[ QUOTE ]
I tend to think that an exceptionally large tip says a lot about a person.

[/ QUOTE ]
donating that money to a charity to help feed the poor, instead of tipping dealers who already are getting paid says more about a person in my humble opinion.

[El Diablo]

Z,

I don't disagree with that and was going to make that point (even though in practical terms in this specific context, my explanation is more appropriate) but didn't really care to be precisely accurate or detailed in my explanation.

I was mainly just responding to Photoc's ridiculous assertion of "This is so incorrect it's not even funny."

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Not a single person will say with any certainty that the dealers made "x%" of the the buy-in as a tip. Why is that???

[/ QUOTE ]

TG, you need to used flat mode. It's been said about a dozen times or more in 2 different threads that it's 1.5% exactly.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Not a single person will say with any certainty that the dealers made "x%" of the the buy-in as a tip. Why is that???

[/ QUOTE ]

TG, you need to used flat mode. It's been said about a dozen times or more in 2 different threads that it's 1.5% exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much did each dealer make on average per hour during the WSOP? The Las Vegas Review Journal reported that it was $60 per hour during the preliminary events. If that isn't true, then what did they make?

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]

How much did each dealer make on average per hour during the WSOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know and I dont really care to be honest with you. It's none of my business as I didn't play any events at the WSOP.

[sketchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Not a single person will say with any certainty that the dealers made "x%" of the the buy-in as a tip. Why is that???

[/ QUOTE ]

TG, you need to used flat mode. It's been said about a dozen times or more in 2 different threads that it's 1.5% exactly.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much did each dealer make on average per hour during the WSOP? The Las Vegas Review Journal reported that it was $60 per hour during the preliminary events. If that isn't true, then what did they make?

[/ QUOTE ]

it isn't true. i have no idea where they got that info. i read an article about dealers in the paper and never saw $60 an hour.

i don't have the slightest idea how many hours i worked but i made about $8,000. if i had to guess, i'd guess it worked out to around $28 an hour.

[mrjetguy]

The real question is did Gold actually say he would tip $1 million. If he did, then it only adds to the fact that he had a serious issue with honesty and doesn't deserve anyone's respect.

If he did not in fact ever say anything about tipping a million then I agree that he really isn't obligated to tip anymore ontop of what is already taken for the dealers.

It's that simple.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
The real question is did Gold actually say he would tip $1 million. If he did, then it only adds to the fact that he had a serious issue with honesty and doesn't deserve anyone's respect.



[/ QUOTE ]

On the radio interview (see other thread) he says that he never said he would tip $1M, and that he didn't know where that story came from. He did not say anything about whether he did tip anything.

Just from that interview, I'd guess he is one of those guys who runs his mouth constantly and has a hard time remembering what he said.

[bearly]

words of wisdom---look at all the silly posts we would not have to sort through..................b

[psandman]

We didn't come near $60 ever in this WSOP (and honestly i didn't expect to) Since I keep hearing that the Rj reported we made $60/hr can someone please provide me to a linkt o this article?

[Photoc]

Looks like the dealers got a goose-egg this year. Most everyone here, that is wondering the amount, should feel very good now that the word is out and in official print. Btw, this is from the Las Vegas Review Journal with a link below for the skeptics. This is their words, not mine.

[ QUOTE ]
Dealers involved in the World Series of Poker are sputtering mad that no one at the final table left a tip. If their complaint is true, it's insanely shameful, considering that all nine players were guaranteed at least $1 million each from the $37.7 million final-table split. The late Benny Binion would have had a colorful message for the cheapskates. ...

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Aug-17-Thu-2006/news/9117220.html

[AngusThermopyle]

The late Benny Binion would have had a colorful message for the cheapskates. ...

Benny Binion didn't take out 6% from the ME either. All the money went to prize pool.

Funny, the paper didn't opine what Binion would have had to say about how HET ran the whole event.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]

Funny, the paper didn't opine what Binion would have had to say about how HET ran the whole event.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.reviewjournal.com/about/print/press/letterstoeditor.html

[Q_and_A]

The prize pool was reduced by the stated percentage held back by HET. The prize pool was reduced by the stated percentage before the first card was dealt. Everyone was playing for the same REDUCED prize pool when the tourney BEGAN. The amount HET allocated to the dealers as player tip was set and determined at the beginning of the ME before anyone was eliminated.

If the players were expected by anyone to tip directly to the dealers, $ wouldn't be allocated without player choice from the entry fee for dealer toke.

Also, from a pure expense deduction analysis, the winner of the tournament, or anyone who cashed, cannot deduct more than their out of pocket payments (i.e., the $10,000 entry fee, etc.). The winners cannot deduct some greater amount due to some theoretically disproportionate tip allocation. The noncashers are still allowed to deduct the full entry fee from other gambling income even though some of the entry fee went to dealer toke in a tourney they were eliminated.

[ohreally]

Here is my understanding of the situation without regard to how much one guy did or did not tip:

In general dealers are paid the federal minimum wage, $5.25, plus tips. The tips are made up from a percentage of the buy in and from hand in tokes from the players. This money makes up a tip pool which is divided among the dealers based on how many times they sat at a table for 30 minutes, called a down. Working 7 days a week a dealer may average 50-60 downs. This may average in the neighborhood of $30 an hour for the total hours they work. And yes, $30 an hour is reasonable compensation for dealing, if you work 2080 hours a year, which circuit dealers do not. Circuit dealers typically follow the big tournaments with weeks of downtime, travel, and added living expenses. Most of them have homes somewhere other than the places they deal. A lot of them have families that they spend months away from.

Put this into the context of paying for a service. You may tip a valet or bellman $5.00 for 5 min. of work and think nothing of it. You may tip a waiter at a nice restaurant $30.00 for an hour or so of his time, of which he is devoting only one fifth to you. All of these people are getting paid an hourly wage (you are paying this through your bill) and the tip is where they make their real money. So if you pay $10,000.00 for a seat and win $X.XX, how much was that service worth to you. Okay, assume they are getting 3%, $300.00, in their tip pool to be divided by all the dealers that dealt to you and by the cashiers and chip runners who also get a cut. How much more are the hours of service they provided worth to you? They are certainly asking themselves what their time is worth to them.

This 2006 WSOP is over and it was what it was. Perhaps the paychecks and tokes dealers received met the “what is their time worth to them” standard, whatever that may be for the individual dealer. From what I have read, in most cases it did not. Perhaps following the 2007 WSOP we will be discussing how it is humanly possible for a break-in dealer to deal so slowly and to suck so bad.

[capone0]

Wah, I only got paid what 30 dollars an hour to deal cards. Something a computer does all the time online and something someone can do with little or no education. If you guys made anywhere over 20 bucks an hour I wouldn't complain. The people that the dealers should complain to is Harrahs, not the players. The players have already been juiced through the VIG. If there was no VIG, I can see why the dealers would be mad, but there was one. It's funny how much dealers expect to get paid on such a mundane, easy, boring, job.

They can keep whining, thing is there are probally others willing to deal if they don't like what their getting. I'm pretty sure there are many people working today that have tougher jobs that required more education than dealing and are getting paid less.

[sketchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Wah, I only got paid what 30 dollars an hour to deal cards. Something a computer does all the time online and something someone can do with little or no education. If you guys made anywhere over 20 bucks an hour I wouldn't complain. The people that the dealers should complain to is Harrahs, not the players. The players have already been juiced through the VIG. If there was no VIG, I can see why the dealers would be mad, but there was one. It's funny how much dealers expect to get paid on such a mundane, easy, boring, job.

They can keep whining, thing is there are probally others willing to deal if they don't like what their getting. I'm pretty sure there are many people working today that have tougher jobs that required more education than dealing and are getting paid less.

[/ QUOTE ]

after 13 pages, did we really need to repeat what has been said on probably 50 of the posts in this thread?

[Dominic]

doesn't part of the entrance fee go to the dealers and other staff? If so, he shouldn't have to tip a damn thing if he doesn't want to. They didn't give back that part of the entrance fee to the players who busted out of the money did they?

I don't know who said it, but I like it:

"The dealers don't fade me when I lose a pot, why should they benefit when I win one?"

[CardSharpCook]

The problem is, he was quoted as saying he would tip $1M if he won. (at least the rumor is that he said this during the ESPN brodcast.)

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's clarify some issues here.

1) The dealers do not get 3% of the prize pool, and they never have. 2-3% has always was withheld for the staff, depending on the buy-in for the event. Out of that 70% goes to the dealers. Thus, in 2005, for an event that withheld 3%, about 2.1% of the prize pool went to the dealers, while .9% of the prize pool went to the assorted staff who worked the event.

[/ QUOTE ]

8000 people this year (actually 8800+)

2.1% of $80M = $1.6M

$1.6M / 500 dealers = 3200 per dealer


457 a day (7 days)
320 a day (10 days)

320/12 hrs a day

$26 an hour

Cry me a [censored] river.

[Sykes]

[ QUOTE ]
We didn't come near $60 ever in this WSOP (and honestly i didn't expect to) Since I keep hearing that the Rj reported we made $60/hr can someone please provide me to a linkt o this article?

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't deserve to make $60 an hour. Hell, you guys should be kissing our feet when you make anything over $15-20 an hour.


YOU [censored] DEAL CARDS. THATS IT.

how about this,

you tip me next time I lose a pot.

idiot.



I don't know why they just don't pay a flat rate for dealers.

I [censored] hate tipping.

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, he was quoted as saying he would tip $1M if he won. (at least the rumor is that he said this during the ESPN brodcast.)

[/ QUOTE ]

In the radio interview linked on NVG, Gold says he did not say that, and doesn't know how that rumor started. No one has posted any evidence here that he ever did say it.

He did not say on that interview whether or not he tipped anything.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
YOU [censored] DEAL CARDS. THATS IT.

how about this,

you tip me next time I lose a pot.

idiot.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he tip you for yelling at him?

[wyoak]

I might be missing something, but where in this thread are the dealers (mainly psandman and sketchy1) whining? Some people said they made $60 an hour, they said no. Some people said they made 3%, they said no. If someone said I made double what I make I would probably correct them, especially if it stands to benefit me in the future.

Otherwise we get it, you hate tipping.

[HSB]

I love tipping threads.

[52s]

Mods -

Can we close this thread and put a sticky throughout 2+2 spelling out banishment for any future tipping threads?

Seriously.

People are coming up with numbers and math equations all over the place that aren't anywhere close to the formula that is normally used, and when the formula does get spelled out to people, it gets ignored and the bad math is continued to be used to further the anti-tipping/pro-tipping arguments.

It's boring.

If bad beat stories can get banished, so should all tipping threads.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We didn't come near $60 ever in this WSOP (and honestly i didn't expect to) Since I keep hearing that the Rj reported we made $60/hr can someone please provide me to a linkt o this article?

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't deserve to make $60 an hour. Hell, you guys should be kissing our feet when you make anything over $15-20 an hour.


YOU [censored] DEAL CARDS. THATS IT.

how about this,

you tip me next time I lose a pot.

idiot.



I don't know why they just don't pay a flat rate for dealers.

I [censored] hate tipping.

[/ QUOTE ]


What the F is wrong with you. Di say we should have made $60/hr. NO I didn't you jackass. I simply said that we didn't make it like is being reported here.

Go F yourself.