Playing at Wynn.

[goofball]

I've been playing at Wynn almost exclusively since they opened. The last 3 days I've been at the B taking a shot in the 30/60 game and I remembered why I've been playing exclusively at Wynn. At the Bellagio the staff was ruder, the players were ruder and shooting more angles, and it was crowded.

I know it's been said before but Wynn is an awesome room. The floor people are very friendly and helpful, as are the dealers. Even the players, while there are the occaisonal grumps, are a happier group in my opinion. The comp system is better (they log hours and give you comps accordingly, at the B you pay a floroperson $5 for one) as are the wait lists.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
The comp system is better (they log hours and give you comps accordingly, at the B you pay a floroperson $5 for one)

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[whiskeytown]

most of the floor is from Canterbury -

Canterbury is the lesser cardroom for it -

RB

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The comp system is better (they log hours and give you comps accordingly, at the B you pay a floroperson $5 for one)

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the Wynn when you show up you swipe in with your players card and swipe out when you leave. They keep track of how much you play and comp you accordingly.

At the Bellagio if you want a comp you have to find a floor person who knows you and knows you play a lot, then ask them and tip them $5.

[Jeffage]

Is Wynn now able to spread 40-80 on a daily basis or is it still spotty? I liked the room as well, but when I was in Vegas last, they seemed to have trouble spreading higher than 15-30 on a regular basis (the 15 was a great game though). The 5-10 NL was actually a good game too. Bellagio 30-60 is almost always fantastic however, and they often have MANY games, even midweek.

Jeff

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
Is Wynn now able to spread 40-80 on a daily basis or is it still spotty? I liked the room as well, but when I was in Vegas last, they seemed to have trouble spreading higher than 15-30 on a regular basis (the 15 was a great game though). The 5-10 NL was actually a good game too. Bellagio 30-60 is almost always fantastic however, and they often have MANY games, even midweek.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Therein lies the trouble. I just play the 15 there and you are right it is fantastic. They usually get 5/10 and 10/20 NL going every day, but 40/80 is only a gurantee on the weekends. It goes sometimes duringi the week but cannot be counted on. The bellagio 30 usually is pretty damn good, but waiting aroudn for a table, playing with all the locals, dealing with the inattentive floorpeople, everything but the action blows.

[gonores]

The 40 game broke at 10pm on Friday night. I know this b/c I played HU and 3 handed for 2 hours after Brier and Co. decided they didnt want to play 5-6 handed and left for the Mirage. That was a damn shame.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
The 40 game broke at 10pm on Friday night. I know this b/c I played HU and 3 handed for 2 hours after Brier and Co. decided they didnt want to play 5-6 handed and left for the Mirage. That was a damn shame.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it's because you and FSU were making fun of him. Way to scare away the live one.

EDIT: Seriously, though, it's odd that they would go to The Mirage. It seemed to me, during my last two visits, that the 40 goes more frequently at The Wynn than The Old Wynn.

[FatalError]

My friends and i were at the wynn and kept the night time floor well stocked with 5 and 10 dollar tips here and there and we ate litterally any meal we wanted at the cafe or buffet for free, for those of you that don't know a comped meal at the cafe can approach 70$ if you pick 3 really expensive things

greasing floormen is fun

[Edge34]

[ QUOTE ]
most of the floor is from Canterbury -

Canterbury is the lesser cardroom for it -

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I haven't been to Bury much in 05...maybe 4 or 5 times, tops. Who all went out there, out of curiosity (and knowing it has nothing to do with this thread, really)?

[Crafty Veteran]

The staff at Wynn is very good, but Katherine is simply terrible from a guest service perspective. Losing Michael O'Malley hurt, and replacing AJ with Katherine as the lead floorperson on swing hurt even more. Moving Cathleen to swing Shift Manager was a positive, nearly offsetting the loss of O'Malley, but Catherine is really a serious negative for the room, she very much is an old school "I'm here to control things" person instead of like the rest of the room with their "I'm here to provide excellent customer service" attitude.

[GrannyMae]

while there are the occaisonal grumps

i saw exactly one grump in 5 days.

i'm a big person, but as this person sat down, his shirt rode up to his breasts and it took him 2 minutes to pull it down. he was the biggest grump i ever saw both physically and as well as nasty.

he also turned out to be a table coach. he bought in for minimum and busted out in 3 downs, after (over)playing only one hand out of the blinds.

never saw him again. all the patrons were really nice.

i want a strawberry juluis NOW.

[flecks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
most of the floor is from Canterbury -

Canterbury is the lesser cardroom for it -

RB

[/ QUOTE ]





















Really? I haven't been to Bury much in 05...maybe 4 or 5 times, tops. Who all went out there, out of curiosity (and knowing it has nothing to do with this thread, really)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave, BBQ, Jesse. These were the only guys that I saw when I was out there in mid July. It was strange seeing them out there. The Wynn's poker room really is quite nice. I couldn't get a damn Coke anywhere in Vegas 'cause its a "Pepsi" town. I got my Cokes in a tall glass with lime at the Wynn. My buddy was sipping Courvoisier. Great place.

[RydenStoompala]

I agree with everyone who likes Wynn. The 15-30 is a great game and the staff rocks. That comp system is so easy and works well. I still play Bellagio out of loyalty and because the game selection is sometimes better. My "goto" room remains Mirage because the donking after midnight is superb. In my opinion, the drunks prefer Mirage and they prefer the 10-20 game and that's all good. Wynn rules for the long sessions.

[Stellastarr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
most of the floor is from Canterbury -

Canterbury is the lesser cardroom for it -

RB

[/ QUOTE ]





















Really? I haven't been to Bury much in 05...maybe 4 or 5 times, tops. Who all went out there, out of curiosity (and knowing it has nothing to do with this thread, really)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave, BBQ, Jesse. These were the only guys that I saw when I was out there in mid July. It was strange seeing them out there. The Wynn's poker room really is quite nice. I couldn't get a damn Coke anywhere in Vegas 'cause its a "Pepsi" town. I got my Cokes in a tall glass with lime at the Wynn. My buddy was sipping Courvoisier. Great place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Jesse the guy with the colored glasses?

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
The staff at Wynn is very good, but Katherine is simply terrible from a guest service perspective. Losing Michael O'Malley hurt, and replacing AJ with Katherine as the lead floorperson on swing hurt even more. Moving Cathleen to swing Shift Manager was a positive, nearly offsetting the loss of O'Malley, but Catherine is really a serious negative for the room, she very much is an old school "I'm here to control things" person instead of like the rest of the room with their "I'm here to provide excellent customer service" attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's the name of the young, thin, blonde girl with the nice rack who works up front?

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The staff at Wynn is very good, but Katherine is simply terrible from a guest service perspective. Losing Michael O'Malley hurt, and replacing AJ with Katherine as the lead floorperson on swing hurt even more. Moving Cathleen to swing Shift Manager was a positive, nearly offsetting the loss of O'Malley, but Catherine is really a serious negative for the room, she very much is an old school "I'm here to control things" person instead of like the rest of the room with their "I'm here to provide excellent customer service" attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's the name of the young, thin, blonde girl with the nice rack who works up front?

[/ QUOTE ]

My future wife.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

She is hot.... and surprisingly rather smart.

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what's the name of the young, thin, blonde girl with the nice rack who works up front?

[/ QUOTE ]

My future wife.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

She is hot.... and surprisingly rather smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

proof?

[MicroBob]

what happened with o'malley??

just last week he was mentioning that he was able to look at the contract that the wynn had with negreneau so i am assumning he was still there as of a few days ago.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what's the name of the young, thin, blonde girl with the nice rack who works up front?

[/ QUOTE ]

My future wife.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

She is hot.... and surprisingly rather smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

proof?

[/ QUOTE ]

Talk to her, and better yet ask O'Malley since he used to work there. They didn't hire a dummy, just because she looks good doesn't meen she is an idiot.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[flecks]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
most of the floor is from Canterbury -

Canterbury is the lesser cardroom for it -

RB

[/ QUOTE ]





















Really? I haven't been to Bury much in 05...maybe 4 or 5 times, tops. Who all went out there, out of curiosity (and knowing it has nothing to do with this thread, really)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave, BBQ, Jesse. These were the only guys that I saw when I was out there in mid July. It was strange seeing them out there. The Wynn's poker room really is quite nice. I couldn't get a damn Coke anywhere in Vegas 'cause its a "Pepsi" town. I got my Cokes in a tall glass with lime at the Wynn. My buddy was sipping Courvoisier. Great place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Jesse the guy with the colored glasses?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this Jesse has short reddish blonde hair and a mustache. I don't recall him ever dealing. He was always floor. I know the other fellow that you're talking about. Good dealer and a laid back guy. Black hair. He always calls people "brother".

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
just because she looks good doesn't meen she is an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]



it doesn't??


wait........no really.......ummmmm.......... (thinking about this)............


it doesn't???

[GrannyMae]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The staff at Wynn is very good, but Katherine is simply terrible from a guest service perspective. Losing Michael O'Malley hurt, and replacing AJ with Katherine as the lead floorperson on swing hurt even more. Moving Cathleen to swing Shift Manager was a positive, nearly offsetting the loss of O'Malley, but Catherine is really a serious negative for the room, she very much is an old school "I'm here to control things" person instead of like the rest of the room with their "I'm here to provide excellent customer service" attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's the name of the young, thin, blonde girl with the nice rack who works up front?

[/ QUOTE ]

the one that wears the shirts that don't reach her skirt?

who noticed the rack with that mid-drift staring at them?

granny
(the lesbian)

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what's the name of the young, thin, blonde girl with the nice rack who works up front?

[/ QUOTE ]

My future wife.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

She is hot.... and surprisingly rather smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good. Now stay away from my future wife Visa.

[anduril]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The staff at Wynn is very good, but Katherine is simply terrible from a guest service perspective. Losing Michael O'Malley hurt, and replacing AJ with Katherine as the lead floorperson on swing hurt even more. Moving Cathleen to swing Shift Manager was a positive, nearly offsetting the loss of O'Malley, but Catherine is really a serious negative for the room, she very much is an old school "I'm here to control things" person instead of like the rest of the room with their "I'm here to provide excellent customer service" attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's the name of the young, thin, blonde girl with the nice rack who works up front?

[/ QUOTE ]

Emily, and she is LOVELY. That skirt is almost as much of a tease as the waitress outfits. Oh and to second granny mae, I recommend the strawberry julius with whipped cream on top, expecially since Steve Wynn doesnt allow redi-whip or sweet'n'low. The bartenders make the whipped cream themselves. Steve Wynn is a GOD.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what's the name of the young, thin, blonde girl with the nice rack who works up front?

[/ QUOTE ]

My future wife.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

She is hot.... and surprisingly rather smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good. Now stay away from my future wife Visa.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can move to Utah, become a polygamist. Whats the matter Jason, afraid of a little friendly competition? I smell a prop bet.. I like my odds.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[JBB]

[ QUOTE ]
just because she looks good doesn't meen she is an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what's the name of the young, thin, blonde girl with the nice rack who works up front?

[/ QUOTE ]

My future wife.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

She is hot.... and surprisingly rather smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good. Now stay away from my future wife Visa.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can move to Utah, become a polygamist. Whats the matter Jason, afraid of a little friendly competition? I smell a prop bet.. I like my odds.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Go near the love of my life and I'll get the ex-love of my life to stab you.

[CanIPlay]

Can you give nore details on the games and compare to Mirage?
I am booked at Mirage but the Wynn sounds tempting.

[RydenStoompala]

It's a short walk. You can try it and file a trip report. Get the blonde's name and post it so these other guys can buy marriage permits in Utah.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Go near the love of my life and I'll get the ex-love of my life to stab you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Been there, done that. We forgot to exchange storys when you were in NY. MUST discuss in LA!

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Dan (Theman)]

The hot girl that works the front desk is actually engaged guys. I especially like the tattoo on her back. But there are plenty of hot waitresses to hit on. I've also been there every day since it opened. What you look like /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

what happened with o'malley??

[/ QUOTE ]


anyone?
does he or doesn't he work there anymore?
just curious.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what happened with o'malley??

[/ QUOTE ]


anyone?
does he or doesn't he work there anymore?
just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

He resigned at the start of the WSME.

This thread needs more O'Malley, something tells me she isn't really engaged.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
The hot girl that works the front desk is actually engaged guys. I especially like the tattoo on her back. But there are plenty of hot waitresses to hit on. I've also been there every day since it opened. What you look like /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you play? I haven't been there every day sine they eopened but probably 75% of them I'm usually in teh 15/30 game.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Goofy:

I disagree with a lot of this. The Belagio, while not perfect, is a far better run poker room than you are giving it credit.

I do agree that The Wynn staff is very friendly and they try to be helpful, but they have sure made many poor management decisions and their lack of games above $15-$30 limit and $5-$10 no limit clearly shows this.

Ironically, I still try to play some there because I'm not badgered as much as I am in a busy cardroom. So I should probably be happy with the way it is.

By the way, I was there Friday night and discovered that they now have the "third man walking rule." I told a couple of their on duty managers that if they keep this rule and enforce it, they should be out of their jobs in the not to distant future. (I'll let others elaborate.)

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bob:

My understanding is that he left his job at Wynn several weeks ago.

Without commenting on O'Malley one oway or the other, I suspect that we will see a lot more of this in the near future.

Wynn is a poker room in trouble. I hope that they can fix it, and believe there is still time to do so, but I'm not very optimistic.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Ryden:

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, the drunks prefer Mirage

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably true and probably has a lot to do with the way The Mirage poker room is located relative to the casino and the way in which they utilize their rail. On the other hand, The Wynn poker room can't be seen from the pit, and they don't seem to understand the value of their rail.

best wishes,
Mason

[Brad22]

Don't elaborate, just tell us what the "3rd man walking rule is"

[megabit]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't elaborate, just tell us what the "3rd man walking rule is"

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are the third person to take a break at the same time, they pick you up and you have to get back on the list.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

To add a little to Mason's point...

The mirage poker room is right between two different table games pits, very close to the walkway from the hotel lobby, on the way from just about anywhere in the casino to the sports book or california pizza kitchen, and located very close to several bars. In other words, Mirage's poker room has an excellent location. Mirage also has LOTS of rail, which they usually have games all along, albeit just about never their higher limit games.

Wynn doesn't have anything close to the location of mirage's room, so that's a moot point. However, wynn could sure make better use of their rail. I was there during the day a few weeks ago, and was on the list for 1-3 blinds no limit. There were few tables in the room actually running, and not all of them were on the rail. When the game I was waiting for finally got going, they started in OFF the rail, in the back half of the front section. Not exactly making use of their rail, er, not at all for that matter. When the room's that slow (only about four games running) they should start all new games on the rail.

There are many things about the wynn that I like, and I'd like to see their room be successful. At the moment tho it seems unlikely that it will ever be much more than a slightly upscale lower limit room with the occasional middle limit games.

al

[whiskeytown]

although in all fairness, being right next to the self park garage is a big plus - every person who parks their own car (and how many fish valet park?) - HAS to walk right by it...

There is something to be said for rail games though - I was there at one point on the rail right near the front desk, and was playing a pot where I flopped Trip Q's and a guy came way over the top on the turn for $150 and went all in -
and another time, the "Duke of Fremont St." as he calls himself sat down and dropped a ton of 100's on the table - (cash - I think he was straightening out his pockets) -

both instances, I saw a lot of people stop and watch our table - seeing that kind of big money on the game is a major attraction (and this was just 1/2 NL - LOL)

RB

[Al_Capone_Junior]

To be more specific, it's that when two players are "walking" your time to take a break is limited, usually to ten minutes. It's a rule with good intentions that doesn't really work well in practice.

al

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
To be more specific, it's that when two players are "walking" your time to take a break is limited, usually to ten minutes. It's a rule with good intentions that doesn't really work well in practice.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a bad rule because its usually poorly enforced, it angers the regular locals, and confuses the tourists. After enough high-rolling tourists complain to their casino hosts, this rule will most likely be abolished.

The problem with rules such as the 3rd man walking rule is that the management rarely (if ever) posts nit picking rules such as this for all players to read, hence players begin to assume favoritism is involved.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Ryden:

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, the drunks prefer Mirage

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably true and probably has a lot to do with the way The Mirage poker room is located relative to the casino and the way in which they utilize their rail. On the other hand, The Wynn poker room can't be seen from the pit, and they don't seem to understand the value of their rail.

best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

When I was last in Vegas I met with the underling to the VP of Marketing to discuss business. We were talking about the poker room in great detail, she told me that the room and it's location was designed pre-boom. Steve Wynn plans to relocate the room once the expanded casino floor is complete, which should occur (if I remember correctly) prior to the new tower opening. They plan to move to poker room to a centrally located area on the main floor.

They are also aware that they are not getting the higher middle limit games they hoped to get, she did not know why (but we do of course).

On the bright side even with it's bad management decisions, from the lower-middle limit players perspective the Wynn may be the best run room in Vegas. They have more perceived options and amenities for this class of tourist than at any other casino in Vegas.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[goofball]

I"m sure part of our difference of opinion can be attributed to game stakes. If I wanted to play 40 and higher I'm sure I owuld be frustrated with the poor game choices as well.

Tinking about it, I actually we're saying two different things. In terms of getting games going and running good limits (other than the retarded red chip/blue chip 8/16 game) the bellagio does a very good job. I think that when Wynn opened they made a bad decision by saying "we'll spread whatever" and should have just picked limits and stuck with them. This isn't really what I was talking aobut in my OP though.

Actually it almost makes my point stronger. The positive experience that is playing at Wynn for me far outweighs the potential benefit of playing at the bellagio.

(being right next to the self park is awesome)

(a third man walking rule is retarded, I haven't seen it enforced but I agree there would be seriosuly troube there if it is)

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that when Wynn opened they made a bad decision by saying "we'll spread whatever" and should have just picked limits and stuck with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. With a qualifier. Wynn SHOULD spread "whatever." But they should realize what niche they best fill and cater to those players in order to make the room as successful as possible. Spread those other games when appropriate, but make sure your regulars (and the games you regularly get going) are strong and healthy. Wynn's
"normal" games are 4-8, 8-16, 1-3 no limit, and 2-5 no limit. Add in a little 15-30 limit and you've got what wynn usually spreads, at least the times I've visited the wynn. Cater to those people. Don't try to exclude the rest, but make the room as healthy as you can within the limits of the situation you're in.

al

[MicroBob]

when i was there (during the WSOP main event) there certainly was no 3rd man walking rule there.
We were 5-handed in my 15/30 game (including one guy who had just left his $1 chip there).
Even though there were 12 people on the wait-list (you can see on the video-screen) they were EXTREMELY lazy about filling the seats.
The table decided to just 'take a break' until they filled a couple of the seats.
I went to the men's room and made a phone call. Probably returned 10 minutes later...they still hadn't gotten the game going again.
This was about 9pm or so and I believe was on a Thurs or Fri night.


Very friendly staff there and I think my experience was an exception. But i just don't see how any responsible staff can let a 15/30 game go dead for THAT long (when there's obviously players waiting to get into that game).

[goofball]

What I meant was when they opened I believe they would have been more wise to pick some holdem limits and spread them. Their NL games are fine, but they have the odd 4/8 8/16 15/30 before the big jump up to 40/80. It will be very hard for them to get many 15/30 players jumping up to 40/80. If when they had opened they had either spread 20/40 and 40/80 or 15/30 and 30/60 I belive the bigger game would have had a better chance.


Edit: obviosuly being willing to spread whatever when ti comes to black chip games, or Omaha or stud games, is more than fine since it's rare they'll get a lot of those going at once so the between game dynamic is non-existent.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Agreed totally on the 15-30 to 40-80 jump. Spread 20-40 already. Spread 30-60. Spread every-friggin'-thing you need to spread in order to compete and make your room a success.

One thing I always disliked about both mirage and bellagio was their apparent "agreement" to spread dissimilar games than each other. Just spread what the customers want already, ALL of the games.

al

[TheMetetron]

Bob, they should have had people playing over. They offered to let me do that when I was on the 15/30 list last time I was there.

[MicroBob]

they didn't need to have anyone playing over.

2 of the seats were completely empty.
1 guy was on a long break.
and another guy had left his $1 chip there over an hour ago and the floor kept NOT picking up his seat.


------------------------


3rd man walking rule has always kind of confused me (I'm not much of a live player).
Not sure if the previous explanation as to why it's so bad covers everything or not. Obviously Mason doesn't like it either but I would be intereszted in hearing his reasons why if they are any different than those that were mentioned.


First time I encountered the 3rd man walking rule was maybe the 3rd or 4th time I had ever played live.
Sitting at 3/6 for about 6 hours...and I decided to use my dinner-comp (easy to get in Tunica...even at 3/6).
I got up and someone came running after me to tell me I only had 3 orbits because I was the 3rd player up from the table.
"That's weird" (had never heard of it before).

I hadn't even considered the other two players who were absent. Because both got their seats and bought their chips, played about 1 or 2 orbits, and then vanished for the longest time. I was so used to playing 8-handed that I didn't even consider that those seats were empty. They had been gone so long after having just joined the table that I had just put them out of my mind.

Now...i had been playing consistently for 6 hours and only had missed 1 hand to run to the men's room.
These guys had just joined the table...and promptly left.

Yet I was the one who they had to threaten "You only get 3 orbits...or you'll lose your seat."

Certainly confused the hell out of me why such a rule existed.
Also thought it was kind of rude how they sent their runner literally sprinting after me half-way across the casino to tell me that.

[ononimo]

Everytime I'm there, I see this guy - white, average height, 40s, thin build, ponytail (but likely balding), mustache (?), wearing a fedora and some form of a zoot suit.

what's HIS story?

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Now you understand much of what sucks about the third man walking rule.

al

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Al:

You wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Wynn's
"normal" games are 4-8, 8-16, 1-3 no limit, and 2-5 no limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think this is a major problem for Wynn. It is the most expensive and upscale casino ever built, and I can't believe that it's good for the casino to be attracting this level of clientel.

best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi goof:

Your post represents part of the problem. The $15-$30 structure is a bad structure for limit hold 'em. The games tend to burn out to fast.

A good example is that the Commerce no longer spreads these games and at one time they spread all limits from $10-$20 on up. The players naturally gravitate to the 1 chip, 2 chip blind structure, not the 2 chip, 3 chip structure. But Wymm management had no understanding of this.

Even at The Belagio, no one wants to play $60-$120, and they use to try to spread it. The game is now $80-$160.

Best wishes,
Mason

[goofball]

I agree that a 4/8 chip game is a better long run game, and I'm really not sure why the Wynn spreads 15/30 when every other limit game is a 4/8 chip game. Although I have no troubly playing the 2/3 chip structure as long as it's spread.

Also, I should point out that the 15 and 30 games at teh bellagio are pretty strong counterexamples.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Al:

You wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Wynn's
"normal" games are 4-8, 8-16, 1-3 no limit, and 2-5 no limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think this is a major problem for Wynn. It is the most expensive and upscale casino ever built, and I can't believe that it's good for the casino to be attracting this level of clientèle.

best wishes,
mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason is absolutely right about this, and the problem stems from the management from Canterbury. As per their website they spread $2/4,$3/6,$4/8,$6/12,$8/16,$15/30,$30/60, Thats right, 30/60 is the Max. Deborah has no experience spreading bigger games, and has no experience dealing with competition - her two biggest flaws from what I see as an outsider.

For the Wynn to change, they need to do the following:

1) Change the limits to 5/10, 10/20, 20/40, 40/80, 80/160 (the 1-3 NL sounds asinine to me, but I do not have enough experience to know if that is a valid format.

2) Develop incentives to get the regular players at the Mirage and the Bellagio to switch. The tourists are already naturally interested in the Wynn, the only incentive they need is the locals providing the base for each game.

Even though I personally love the 8/16 and 15/30 formats for the limits where I am most comfortable, it will only hurt the card room in the long run. It is a bad business decision to continue to spread these limits.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hi Al:

You wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Wynn's
"normal" games are 4-8, 8-16, 1-3 no limit, and 2-5 no limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think this is a major problem for Wynn. It is the most expensive and upscale casino ever built, and I can't believe that it's good for the casino to be attracting this level of clientèle.

best wishes,
mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason is absolutely right about this, and the problem stems from the management from Canterbury. As per their website they spread $2/4,$3/6,$4/8,$6/12,$8/16,$15/30,$30/60, Thats right, 30/60 is the Max. Deborah has no experience spreading bigger games, and has no experience dealing with competition - her two biggest flaws from what I see as an outsider.

For the Wynn to change, they need to do the following:

1) Change the limits to 5/10, 10/20, 20/40, 40/80, 80/160 (the 1-3 NL sounds asinine to me, but I do not have enough experience to know if that is a valid format.

2) Develop incentives to get the regular players at the Mirage and the Bellagio to switch. The tourists are already naturally interested in the Wynn, the only incentive they need is the locals providing the base for each game.

Even though I personally love the 8/16 and 15/30 formats for the limits where I am most comfortable, it will only hurt the card room in the long run. It is a bad business decision to continue to spread these limits.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate on what the problem is with spreading 4/8, 8/16 and 15/30 instead of 5/10, 10/20 and 20/40?

[Spook]

[ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate on what the problem is with spreading 4/8, 8/16 and 15/30 instead of 5/10, 10/20 and 20/40?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think TT is agreeing with Mason that the 2/3 blind level games die out.
The problem with 5/10 is that it is a terrible game using 1 or 2 chips. Small pots and no action.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate on what the problem is with spreading 4/8, 8/16 and 15/30 instead of 5/10, 10/20 and 20/40?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think TT is agreeing with Mason that the 2/3 blind level games die out.
The problem with 5/10 is that it is a terrible game using 1 or 2 chips. Small pots and no action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I just played a 5/10 one-chip game at Foxwoods last week and it was a disaster.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Could you elaborate on what the problem is with spreading 4/8, 8/16 and 15/30 instead of 5/10, 10/20 and 20/40?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think TT is agreeing with Mason that the 2/3 blind level games die out.
The problem with 5/10 is that it is a terrible game using 1 or 2 chips. Small pots and no action.

[/ QUOTE ]

5/10 can be replaced with 6/12 easily, however 5/10 is a better entry point game. You re right about the size of the pots, this can be rectified by switching to a custom chip structure... the game can be played with $2 and $1 chips to increase the perceived pot size.

Jason - There is a great Essay Mason wrote about the 15 games cannibalization of itself, I believe it was in Poker Essays #1. Yes the chip structure is ideal for the expert to take advantage of a weak small blind player, however in the long run it burns through it’s core base of players too fast.
TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I should point out that the 15 and 30 games at teh bellagio are pretty strong counterexamples.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if the Wynn was the first to bring 15/30 and 30/60 to Vegas then I'm sure it would be successful too, however two rooms in Vegas spreading the same limits won’t work.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Conspir8or]

Ononimo -- I have seen him down at the Golden Nugget and the Plaza. He reminded me of the folks who attended the Gatsby Dance they held at my school during Senior Week. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Whiskeytown, is this the "Duke of Fremont Street" you mentioned? I was gonna PM you if this was the guy, when I read O's post.

Ending tangent --
Conspir8or

[Mason Malmuth]

They're not counter examples. There would probably be even more games at The Bellagio if they had the better structure.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Dpook:

I agree that $5-$10 producess a bad structure. But it can't be played using 1 and 2 chips in the blinds.

Best wishes,
Mason

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
the game can be played with $2 and $1 chips to increase the perceived pot size.

[/ QUOTE ]

playing with multiple chip denominations sucks. a lot.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

This is my point too, why spread the exact same games as bellagio? Spread what's going to get players in the room, not some pre-determined schedule of games. A little flexibility goes a long way.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Wynn should be attracting higher end poker players, but they aren't, therefore these wind up being their standard games. I think the reasons are twofold...

1. wynn's management hasn't done what it takes to get the higher limit players in the room on a regular basis.

2. the poker boom has attracted many new players, and these players mostly want to play no limit hold'em. Note that the times I have been in the wynn, no limit 1-2 (now 1-3) and 2-5 have been the predominant games, with perhaps one each of 8-16 and 15-30, and a couple 4-8 games. No limit seems to be killing limit hold'em. With few exceptions, almost every room in town seems to have half of their games no limit, with only a smattering of anything else.

Wynn does need to make some serious changes, perhaps someone will read this thread (lol), but I doubt it. Unfortunately poker room managers seem to mostly ignore this type of discussion.

al

[jayheaps]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi goof:

Your post represents part of the problem. The $15-$30 structure is a bad structure for limit hold 'em. The games tend to burn out to fast.

A good example is that the Commerce no longer spreads these games and at one time they spread all limits from $10-$20 on up. The players naturally gravitate to the 1 chip, 2 chip blind structure, not the 2 chip, 3 chip structure. But Wymm management had no understanding of this.

Even at The Belagio, no one wants to play $60-$120, and they use to try to spread it. The game is now $80-$160.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason, I had to disagree with you, but your point about the Bellagio is just not true. Per Managerment's decision, they will not spread a 60/120 HE game. They want the big jump from 30/60 to 80 because the locals don't want players taking a shot. I believe they will only spread 60/120 for stud or razz games.

I remember playing the 40 mixed game and some of us wanted to raise the stakes to 60/120 and management was admanent about not letting us do it.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
Per Managerment's decision, they will not spread a 60/120 HE game. They want the big jump from 30/60 to 80 because the locals don't want players taking a shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? This makes no sense at all, do you have any actual managerial evidence of this, or is this a supposition on your part?

[jayheaps]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Per Managerment's decision, they will not spread a 60/120 HE game. They want the big jump from 30/60 to 80 because the locals don't want players taking a shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? This makes no sense at all, do you have any actual managerial evidence of this, or is this a supposition on your part?

[/ QUOTE ]

A bit of both from different sources. The no 60 games is something I got from the high-limit brushes. After they told us that, a couple people siad they ran 60 games a few years ago and it killed the 80s and a bunch of players compained.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I understand about 60-120 killing the 80-160, that's fine. But why would locals not want the tourists to take shots? Seems like easy money to me. Although some vegas locals are SO incredibly nitty that they really might think this obtusely.

al

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
2. the poker boom has attracted many new players, and these players mostly want to play no limit hold'em. Note that the times I have been in the wynn, no limit 1-2 (now 1-3) and 2-5 have been the predominant games, with perhaps one each of 8-16 and 15-30, and a couple 4-8 games. No limit seems to be killing limit hold'em. With few exceptions, almost every room in town seems to have half of their games no limit, with only a smattering of anything else.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Although I am not qualified to to truly participate when NL is discussed, but if the Wynn really wanted to expand it's bigger games they would take on a game such as 10/20 NL as well. Perhaps to to spread a 50/100 NL game once a week. But then the problem comes back to the rail, the higher limit games are buried in the back of the room.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I don't know their policy on no limit games, but I was invited to help start a new 5-10 no limit one day. I declined, as I only had about $500 on me, but the game did get going (upstairs, away from the rail). However, I don't think it goes very often, and I am not personally aware of any higher no limit than that going at wynn. That of course doesn't mean that the games don't exist, only that I am not aware of them.

I have stated before that they should have the real action games on the rail, including higher no limit games. The last time I was there, 2-5 no limit was in the middle of the room (it was the biggest one going), and there were empty tables on the rail.

al

[jayheaps]

I agree it makes no sense. I would like to know if anyone here has more details over the reasoning behind the policy.

[whiskeytown]

that sure as hell sounds like him --

older - ponytail - nice jacket, nice hat - that's the guy -

usually plays 1/2 NL I heard (and from what I saw, even with all that money, he is EXTREMELY tight player..) - and I think he usually plays on fremont st. or the Wynn, so that would probably be the guy.

RB

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
They want the big jump from 30/60 to 80 because the locals don't want players taking a shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know something like that. Are you part of management? They use to spread $60-$120, but the game, as it tends to do everyplace else, evolves to $80-$160.

Best wishes,
Mason

[jayheaps]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They want the big jump from 30/60 to 80 because the locals don't want players taking a shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know something like that. Are you part of management? They use to spread $60-$120, but the game, as it tends to do everyplace else, evolves to $80-$160.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

I am speculating as to the reason, but I've tried to get 60 games started with a full table several times and were not allowed by management per "policy"

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Luv:

They had a $10-$20 no limit but have now lost that as well.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Jay:

That's because management at The Bellagio has recognized that $80-$150 is the preferred game, and the game that goes the best.

Poker is a lot like Darwian Evolution. Games will over time evolve to the best structures. When poker room management tinkers with these structures, as they have done at The Bellagio, and now at The Wynn, they usually damage the games.

Best wishes,
Mason

Best wishes,
mason

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
and there were empty tables on the rail.


[/ QUOTE ]

Keeping empty tables on the rail is just plain stupid. The exception might be if they plan to start something else there shortly.

MM

[TheMetetron]

I say go with $4/8, $8/16, $20/40, $40/80, $80/160.

California-style and they should be fine.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and there were empty tables on the rail.


[/ QUOTE ]

Keeping empty tables on the rail is just plain stupid. The exception might be if they plan to start something else there shortly.

MM

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the reason Michael O'Malley gave us recently in a previous discussion. Unfortunately "shortly" was never valid. The management would better serve the room and the players if they started games near the rail, and then as the room fills move the game to somewhere else in the room.

When we were last in Vegas the Wynn spread a Triple Draw 2-7 game for us. The buyins were huge, and since the rail area was empty with the exception of two games on either side I advised the floor to spread the game at a table that would attract attention on the rail. The floor declined because he needed to save the tables for the 4/8 and 1/2 NL games which he hoped to start soon. 4 hours later....... no new games at the rail, but the 15/30 game got off finally.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I say go with $4/8, $8/16, $20/40, $40/80, $80/160.

California-style and they should be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe 4/8 is too low for a casino of the Wynn's caliber. I could see 6/12 as a replacement for 5/10 however.

PS: Hypothetically 5/10 can also be played with east coast style $2.50 pink chips in a 2 chip 4 chip structure, but I've never seen it spread that way.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
I say go with $4/8, $8/16, $20/40, $40/80, $80/160.

California-style and they should be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 3-6, 6-12, 10-20, 20-40, 40-80, 80-160 is ideal

[PokerBob]

I don't see whay the don't just copy the Bellagio's spread, and modify things that aren't working out after a few months. It's gotta be better than what they have now. When we were there and they didn't have enough players to spread a 15 game at noon on a Saturday, I knew they were in trouble.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see whay the don't just copy the Bellagio's spread, and modify things that aren't working out after a few months. It's gotta be better than what they have now. When we were there and they didn't have enough players to spread a 15 game at noon on a Saturday, I knew they were in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bellagio spreads a 15, which shoots holes in your theory.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say go with $4/8, $8/16, $20/40, $40/80, $80/160.

California-style and they should be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 3-6, 6-12, 10-20, 20-40, 40-80, 80-160 is ideal

[/ QUOTE ]

$3/6 is way too low, I could see $6/12 instead of $4/8 but it ruins the whole 4 chip, 8 chip structure that works so well. $10/20 is not happening, same reason $5/10 isn't happening. 1 chip/2 chip and 2 chip / 4 chip structures just suck. $10/20 at foxwoods convinced me a big bet needs to be at least 6 chips, preferrably 8.

[megabit]

[ QUOTE ]
that sure as hell sounds like him --

older - ponytail - nice jacket, nice hat - that's the guy -

usually plays 1/2 NL I heard (and from what I saw, even with all that money, he is EXTREMELY tight player..) - and I think he usually plays on fremont st. or the Wynn, so that would probably be the guy.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

I see this guy almost every time I go to Vegas. Plays with a huge wad of C notes in NL games with no cap. Plays tighter than hell and when he picks up AA, KK or maybe AK he pushes it all in and dares you to give it ago. Someone generally will, he racks up their chips and heads to the next spot on his rotation. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[goofball]

The 4/8 is a pretty popular game there. I think they should spread it. I like a 4/8, 8/16, and 40/80. Instead of 80 though I think they should try 100/200.

I definietly don't know what happened to their 10/20 NL, and maybe clarkmeister or mason can tell us why the mirage 40 regulars stopped meeting at Wynn.

[TheMetetron]

[ QUOTE ]
The 4/8 is a pretty popular game there. I think they should spread it. I like a 4/8, 8/16, and 40/80. Instead of 80 though I think they should try 100/200.

I definietly don't know what happened to their 10/20 NL, and maybe clarkmeister or mason can tell us why the mirage 40 regulars stopped meeting at Wynn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You left out a $20/40... you arent' jumping from an 8 game to a 40 game. Also, the 80 game is very much a good idea. Ask any california room or bellagio.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see whay the don't just copy the Bellagio's spread, and modify things that aren't working out after a few months. It's gotta be better than what they have now. When we were there and they didn't have enough players to spread a 15 game at noon on a Saturday, I knew they were in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bellagio spreads a 15, which shoots holes in your theory.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

true, but i gotta believe with a little brains/marketing they could easily be as popular as Bellagio given all of the other amenities that the hotel is capable of providing......the fact that they don't use the rail is a clear indication IMO that they really have no clue about how to attract attention/players to their room

[goofball]

yeah, of course a 20/40

[whiskeytown]

YES - dumps a SHITLOAD of 100's on the table - and you'd think he was mega loose, but he's not - MEGA tight -

the Duke of Fremont St. - well, he's definately famous - LOL

THAT's why I've seen him at Wynn and not many other places (aside from the fact I don't go downtown) - he overbuys in games where there's there no cap.

RB

[pc in NM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't elaborate, just tell us what the "3rd man walking rule is"

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are the third person to take a break at the same time, they pick you up and you have to get back on the list.

[/ QUOTE ]

I my experience, the "third man walking" is picked up when (s)he misses the next blind....

I happen to like the rule, and am curious why those who enforce it should suffer dire consequences. Somebody enlighten me, please.

[Grue]

The reason the vegas nit locals on this forum don't like 3rd man walking rules is because it hurts them when they try to walk for hours while in a bad game and on the table change list. The reason VNL don't like 2/3 games is because it gives poor (loose) players a slightly better chance and because they can't adapt or play post flop at all. The reason VNL like the bellagio and not the wynn is because the bellagio caters to them more, instead of to the tourists who the games actually revolve around.

[Mason Malmuth]

The reason Grue has everything wrong in his post is ...

MM

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mete:

I agree. But why is this California style. Coule it be that over time they discovered that the other limits/structures don't work very well.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Luv:

I believe that in Las Vegas the Gambling Comission has to approve all chip denominations. That's why you don't see $3 chips. However, I do remember a few downtown casinos having $2.50 chips in their blackjack games many years ago.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bob:

I agree that copying what The Bellagio does would probably be better than what they currently have, but it's still not the way to go.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Bob:

A little story. A bunch of years ago I had to meet a friend for lunch at The Rio. Since I never went in there, I told my friend to meet me at the poker room (wherever it was.) When I got to the poker room, it had about a dozen tables in two rows. One row on the rail and the other row off the rail. They had about four games going all off the rail and none on the rail. I remember telling my friend that this room will probably be closed in a few months, and sure enough it was.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Goof:

[ QUOTE ]
maybe clarkmeister or mason can tell us why the mirage 40 regulars stopped meeting at Wynn.

[/ QUOTE ]

By putting the game in the back out of sight, it would die around 10:00 pm every night. Sp virtually all these players have returned to The Mirage.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mete:

You may be right, but you are also confusing issues. A 1 chip, 2 chip structure is technically the same as a 4 chip, 8 chip structure. But there is a difference in the "illusion of action" aspect.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
The floor declined because he needed to save the tables for the 4/8 and 1/2 NL games which he hoped to start soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Luv:

When I read stuff like this it's almost funny. If a no action game exists, it has to be a small no limit. That's the ideal game for the back of the room, not the rail.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hello:

I sure hope the right people from the Wynn Poker Room management read this thread. This should give you a good idea as to why your room is emptying out instead of filling up.

I still believe that there is time to fix the errors and the room will recover. Also, if you do make the appropriate corrections, and this includes your must move rule which needs to go, this site will support your efforts.

Best wishes,
Mason

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Luv:

I believe that in Las Vegas the Gambling Comission has to approve all chip denominations. That's why you don't see $3 chips. However, I do remember a few downtown casinos having $2.50 chips in their blackjack games many years ago.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

They must have been approved. Wynn now spreads 1/3 NL with $3 chips.

[MicroBob]

Very intersting thread.

Since I don't know much about live-poker and room management I feel like I'm learning lots.

Couple of observations:

At the Bellagio...the games on the far left of the room as you are walking in were all 4/8 (or maybe 8/16) as I recall.
I guess the tables on the fairly short-rail to the right as you walk in (nearer the sportsbook) might include some 15/30 but I'm not sure.
but weren't most of the 15/30 and up games far away from the rail.
I think those 3 tables on the left are their 'main' rail and they are all low-limit there.

Thoughts on rail-game at Bellgasio??


2 - Metetron said something about 10/20 games kind of sucking.
Not sure why this would be. I don't think this whole bit about having x-number of chips per bet should be that big a deal.
FWIW - the 10/20 game at the Horseshoe-Tunica is an extremely loose game. Some might argue it's one of the best in the country.
The 20/40 game at the Horseshoe is insanely wild. I've never played it...but I've heard about drunken auto-caps every round by various players...7 or 8-way caps....not sure, but I think they always play with the 'rock' (or at least frequently do), etc.

I only have heard the stories of the 20/40 game though.
But I can tell you from experience that 10/20 works fine and dandy around here.

H.S. spreads 4/8, 10/20 and 20/40.


3 - I completely agree that if Wynn wants to stay consistent with how they obviously are marketing themselves and want to be perceived they would be wise to spread 6/12 as their lowest limit.
And then I think 10/20 and 20/40 would be good.


On the PPM cruise I played some of the 6/12 there. But that was just a stop-off point for players that were waiting for seats in the 10/20 game. It was kind of annoying with all the jumping. Perhaps the limits were to close together.
However, PPM card-player was also spreading 2/4 and 3/6 I believe. So I suspect it could be different at Wynn under this suggestion since 6/12 would be their lowest limit.

Also - since I've seen 10/20 work absolutely great in Tunica I would think they might want to just keep it simple and try the 5/10 thing.
Just because some have seen it not take off elsewhere doesn't mean it can't work at the Wynn.
They need to up their limits just slightly.....

and spread games to set them APART from Bellagio.
There's a joke that dealers and some players know where Wynn is referred to as 'oh...you mean Bellagio-North?'
I heard this joke from a dealer while playing at the Wynn btw.

They've already got a very nice room....the computerized wait-lists on the video-monitors, etc etc.
They even took another step towards 'uniqueness' with the 9-handed tables....whether you like the 9-handed tables or not...at least they're thinking of ways to set themselves apart....so why do they feel obligated to spread the exact same games that the Bellagio does?

[TheMetetron]

$10/$20 would be a good game if they used pink chips. But they don't. You just wouldn't understand unless you were used to seeing 4chip/8chip sized pots on a regular basis. $10/20 with redbirds (yellow is much more fun for a $5 chip) doesn't look as fun. It saves the casino money by having less chips, but it's not as good for the players.

I don't like $6/12 as the lowest limit, but if you did you'd have to go with $9/18 as the next limit. But I think $4/8 and $8/16 works better. That's actually the one thing the Wynn has right. $8/16 with $2 chips.

[kyleb]

The Wynn was the greatest place to play while I was in Vegas twice over the summer. When I return, I plan on staying there and logging many hours there. There simply isn't a better room on the strip, as far as I'm concerned.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say go with $4/8, $8/16, $20/40, $40/80, $80/160.

California-style and they should be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 3-6, 6-12, 10-20, 20-40, 40-80, 80-160 is ideal

[/ QUOTE ]

$3/6 is way too low, I could see $6/12 instead of $4/8 but it ruins the whole 4 chip, 8 chip structure that works so well. $10/20 is not happening, same reason $5/10 isn't happening. 1 chip/2 chip and 2 chip / 4 chip structures just suck. $10/20 at foxwoods convinced me a big bet needs to be at least 6 chips, preferrably 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 10-20 games at the Borgata in AC are great. I don't think that 2-4 chip structures are bad per se.

The thing I don't like about the 8-16, 20-40 structure is the huge jump between limits

[MicroBob]

I'm still not 'getting it'.

The 10/20 at the Horseshoe-Tunica is a red-chip game and it is CRAZY action.


I do like the $2 chips on the Wynn 8/16 game.
The red and blue chips on the 8/16 at the Bellagio are freaking ridiculous.
$8 bet looks VERY similar to a $16 bet because BOTH bets consist of 4 chips (3 blue and 1 red....or 1 blue and 3 red).

Players and even dealers miss raises ALL the time because of this.
No confusion in the $2-chip 8/16 game at Wynn.


Also metetron - Not sure why you would have to go from 6/19 to 9/18.
The 6/12 game I played on the card-player cruise was a $2-chip game (they were yellow chips on the cruise...the Wynn's $2 chips are brown).
Wynn has so many different denomination chips that I don't think that needs to be much of a concern.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

From grue's post...

[ QUOTE ]
The reason the vegas nit locals on this forum don't like 3rd man walking rules is because it hurts them when they try to walk for hours while in a bad game and on the table change list. The reason VNL don't like 2/3 games is because it gives poor (loose) players a slightly better chance and because they can't adapt or play post flop at all. The reason VNL like the bellagio and not the wynn is because the bellagio caters to them more, instead of to the tourists who the games actually revolve around.


[/ QUOTE ]

First off all, there are very VERY few "vegas nit locals" who have ever even heard of 2+2, let alone who post here. I suggest you study up some old threads on the true meaning of "nit."

Third man walking rule rarely hurts locals who know and understand the rule, it hurts the games because the tourists, who don't know, and don't understand, often wind up getting penalized by it, leaving them confused, pissed off and likely to leave.

2/3 blind structure games HURT loose tourists, not HELP them, they stand LESS of a chance in these games. The reason is because they play too loosely from the small blind and wind up losing their money faster than they would in a 1-2 blinds structure game.

The bellagio doesn't cater much to ANYONE, let alone that being the primary reasons locals would want to play there over the wynn (holy cow, that's nearly laughable). The actual reason locals play more at bellagio is because bellagio successfully spreads a variety of middle and high limit games on a regular basis, and wynn does not. As soon as wynn makes the changes that bring these games to their room on a regular basis, trust me, the locals will flock right on over.

al

[dankhank]

most of this thread is about the limit game situation at wynn. however, in the times i've been there the no limit games (they always had 5/10, sometimes 10/20, and during wsop they had 25/50) have seemed very healthy...

mirage and bellagio both have better limit setups than wynn, but in NL there is actually no comparison. bellagio has like 2-5 $200 max buyin and then zoom you go to 10-25NL no max. no inbetween games. mirage's biggest NL game is 2-5 w/ $500 max. wynn meanwhile has many tables of 1-3, 2-5, 5-10, 10-20, all with no max buyin. great forethought of setting up the NL games, imo

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]


quoting Mason...
[ QUOTE ]

I believe that in Las Vegas the Gambling Comission has to approve all chip denominations. That's why you don't see $3 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

They must have been approved. Wynn now spreads 1/3 NL with $3 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any new chip, even for a change in the hot stamp, requires approval from the Nevada Gaming Commission.

This can't be that difficult, though, since the Hard Rock and Palms put out special edition chips many times a year.

[BarronVangorToth]

I realize that I'm in the extreme minority, but I would prefer all games to have a 1 chip option. For example, if the game is $20-$40, you would need a $10 chip for the small blind, a $20 chip for the big blind, and $40 chips for full BB.

Alas, it shall never happen.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi hank:

If things were always like how they were during the WSOP there would be no need for this thread. Unfortunately, there are eleven other months, and the drop off at Wynn since the WSOP has been more drastic than the other two major cardrooms.

Best wishes,
Mason

[anduril]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Goofy:

I disagree with a lot of this. The Belagio, while not perfect, is a far better run poker room than you are giving it credit.

I do agree that The Wynn staff is very friendly and they try to be helpful, but they have sure made many poor management decisions and their lack of games above $15-$30 limit and $5-$10 no limit clearly shows this.

Ironically, I still try to play some there because I'm not badgered as much as I am in a busy cardroom. So I should probably be happy with the way it is.

By the way, I was there Friday night and discovered that they now have the "third man walking rule." I told a couple of their on duty managers that if they keep this rule and enforce it, they should be out of their jobs in the not to distant future. (I'll let others elaborate.)

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

perhaps it's more because vegas cardplayers just aren't used to this rule. If enforced properly, it keeps the tables full and the patrons happy. I don't know why you would think forcing the players who are at a table to come back and "play" is a bad thing. Ten minutes is more than enough time to go tthe bathroom/take a short walk. Foxwoods (even though every other aspect of the poker room sucks) has and enforces this rule without any problem whatsoever, and patrons are very glad they do. The majority of poker players are not good, and not good players hate to play shorthanded. So, in essence, if the casino keeps the players at the table, it keeps the games going. Several times at the Wynn when 3-4 people went off for a walk or whatever, the game would break because 4 players didnt want to play shorthanded because it was uncomfortable for them.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I realize that I'm in the extreme minority, but I would prefer all games to have a 1 chip option. For example, if the game is $20-$40, you would need a $10 chip for the small blind, a $20 chip for the big blind, and $40 chips for full BB.

Alas, it shall never happen.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

I see where you are coming from, but you (like me) likely have a practical approach from the viewpoint of a player. Fewer chips make the pot easier for me to count, but lotsa chips make fishies come swimming.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi anduril:

I didn't say it's bad for the poker games, but it is a pretty good way to get a poker room closed at a major strip casino like Wynn. When the super high roller who feels like a few hands of poker complains to his host that he wasn't allowed to leave the poker room so that he could play a few hands of ultra high limit baccarat ...

Best wishes,
Mason

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realize that I'm in the extreme minority, but I would prefer all games to have a 1 chip option. For example, if the game is $20-$40, you would need a $10 chip for the small blind, a $20 chip for the big blind, and $40 chips for full BB.

Alas, it shall never happen.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

I see where you are coming from, but you (like me) likely have a practical approach from the viewpoint of a player. Fewer chips make the pot easier for me to count, but lotsa chips make fishies come swimming.

[/ QUOTE ]

I count the bets as they go in the pot. Say six people called two bets preflop, so that's 12 SB etc.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realize that I'm in the extreme minority, but I would prefer all games to have a 1 chip option. For example, if the game is $20-$40, you would need a $10 chip for the small blind, a $20 chip for the big blind, and $40 chips for full BB.

Alas, it shall never happen.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

I see where you are coming from, but you (like me) likely have a practical approach from the viewpoint of a player. Fewer chips make the pot easier for me to count, but lotsa chips make fishies come swimming.

[/ QUOTE ]

I count the bets as they go in the pot. Say six people called two bets preflop, so that's 12 SB etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but you're a math geek.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I count the bets as they go in the pot. Say six people called two bets preflop, so that's 12 SB etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but you're a math geek.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you teach physics?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I count the bets as they go in the pot. Say six people called two bets preflop, so that's 12 SB etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but you're a math geek.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you teach physics?

[/ QUOTE ]

high school.......a postman could do it.....nerd

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I count the bets as they go in the pot. Say six people called two bets preflop, so that's 12 SB etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but you're a math geek.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you teach physics?

[/ QUOTE ]

high school.......a postman could do it.....nerd

[/ QUOTE ]
so now your a postman???

Back to seriousness... if there is one thing we have all seen from this thread is that Mason obviously likes the Wynn a lot, and is concerned about the room enough to comment and share is opinions which we all seem to agree with in one way or another. Its a fantastic room, and we should all continue to express our views to the poker room management... only together can we bring about a change which will only benefit us all in the long run.

But for opinions to be heard it must be a collective voice, not a disparaging group of separate ideas that are not congruent with each other.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[goofball]

I think we all agree on that. That we like the room at Wynn and want it to succeed.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
From grue's post...

[ QUOTE ]
The reason the vegas nit locals on this forum don't like 3rd man walking rules is because it hurts them when they try to walk for hours while in a bad game and on the table change list. The reason VNL don't like 2/3 games is because it gives poor (loose) players a slightly better chance and because they can't adapt or play post flop at all. The reason VNL like the bellagio and not the wynn is because the bellagio caters to them more, instead of to the tourists who the games actually revolve around.


[/ QUOTE ]

First off all, there are very VERY few "vegas nit locals" who have ever even heard of 2+2, let alone who post here. I suggest you study up some old threads on the true meaning of "nit."

Third man walking rule rarely hurts locals who know and understand the rule, it hurts the games because the tourists, who don't know, and don't understand, often wind up getting penalized by it, leaving them confused, pissed off and likely to leave.

2/3 blind structure games HURT loose tourists, not HELP them, they stand LESS of a chance in these games. The reason is because they play too loosely from the small blind and wind up losing their money faster than they would in a 1-2 blinds structure game.

The bellagio doesn't cater much to ANYONE, let alone that being the primary reasons locals would want to play there over the wynn (holy cow, that's nearly laughable). The actual reason locals play more at bellagio is because bellagio successfully spreads a variety of middle and high limit games on a regular basis, and wynn does not. As soon as wynn makes the changes that bring these games to their room on a regular basis, trust me, the locals will flock right on over.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

The nit locals like the rule because they aren't forced to play shorthanded.

I disagree regarding the 3/2 structure. It's much better for the fish because they are playing all their small blind hands anyways, and the extra money makes it less of a mistake.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree regarding the 3/2 structure. It's much better for the fish because they are playing all their small blind hands anyways, and the extra money makes it less of a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned earlier. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[anduril]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi anduril:

I didn't say it's bad for the poker games, but it is a pretty good way to get a poker room closed at a major strip casino like Wynn. When the super high roller who feels like a few hands of poker complains to his host that he wasn't allowed to leave the poker room so that he could play a few hands of ultra high limit baccarat ...

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree with that, but with the current games the Wynn is running, I think it's in their best interest to keep as many games going as they can. It definitely comes into play at 15-30 and below and 2-5NL and below, where, like I said before, most players are not good and don't want to play shorthanded so when it gets down to 6-7 players, the game breaks because unexperienced players get scared.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree regarding the 3/2 structure. It's much better for the fish because they are playing all their small blind hands anyways, and the extra money makes it less of a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned earlier. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It has been discussed many times before, the general consensus is that although it makes the fish happier at the time, they also go broke quicker, which is bad for the casino. Hence 2/3 blind sucture good for us in the short run, bad in the long run for the providers & the management.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree regarding the 3/2 structure. It's much better for the fish because they are playing all their small blind hands anyways, and the extra money makes it less of a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned earlier. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It has been discussed many times before, the general consensus is that although it makes the fish happier at the time, they also go broke quicker, which is bad for the casino. Hence 2/3 blind sucture good for us in the short run, bad in the long run for the providers & the management.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't answer his question: Why does the structure make the fish go broke quicker? He pointed out that the 2/3 structure makes calling out of the SB less of a mistake, which would seem to make the fish go broke less quickly.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
That doesn't answer his question: Why does the structure make the fish go broke quicker? He pointed out that the 2/3 structure makes calling out of the SB less of a mistake, which would seem to make the fish go broke less quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a good player will be quick to release his second best hand, where as a fishy player will play on and lose a lot more than his or her blind. It also encourages poor players to call pre-flop raises with inferior hands more often since they tend to treat the small blind as the equivelent to the big blind (1 an 1/3 bets to call), and over time these same players tend to play much looser in other positions than they would in a 2/4 structure game. The games die out slowly as the regulars who are not strong slowly go broke, its not an immediate occurrence.

With that said, I'd rather play in a 15/30 game than a 20/40 game because of the increased action. Often times the pots are slightly bigger in a 15/30 game. There is a great Essay on this in Mason's Poker Essays 1.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That doesn't answer his question: Why does the structure make the fish go broke quicker? He pointed out that the 2/3 structure makes calling out of the SB less of a mistake, which would seem to make the fish go broke less quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a good player will be quick to release his second best hand, where as a fishy player will play on and lose a lot more than his or her blind. It also encourages poor players to call pre-flop raises with inferior hands more often since they tend to treat the small blind as the equivelent to the big blind (1 an 1/3 bets to call), and over time these same players tend to play much looser in other positions than they would in a 2/4 structure game. The games die out slowly as the regulars who are not strong slowly go broke, its not an immediate occurrence.

With that said, I'd rather play in a 15/30 game than a 20/40 game because of the increased action. Often times the pots are slightly bigger in a 15/30 game. There is a great Essay on this in Mason's Poker Essays 1.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they should change the small blind to $7.50 and play the game with all pink chips. I know you would like that.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That doesn't answer his question: Why does the structure make the fish go broke quicker? He pointed out that the 2/3 structure makes calling out of the SB less of a mistake, which would seem to make the fish go broke less quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because a good player will be quick to release his second best hand, where as a fishy player will play on and lose a lot more than his or her blind. It also encourages poor players to call pre-flop raises with inferior hands more often since they tend to treat the small blind as the equivelent to the big blind (1 an 1/3 bets to call), and over time these same players tend to play much looser in other positions than they would in a 2/4 structure game. The games die out slowly as the regulars who are not strong slowly go broke, its not an immediate occurrence.

With that said, I'd rather play in a 15/30 game than a 20/40 game because of the increased action. Often times the pots are slightly bigger in a 15/30 game. There is a great Essay on this in Mason's Poker Essays 1.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they should change the small blind to $7.50 and play the game with all pink chips. I know you would like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol... yes I love that game, but its still the same problem. A pink chip game is essentially a 15/30 game at 1/2 price. Its possible this is also why the pink games died out over time as well in AC.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Maybe they should change the small blind to $7.50 and play the game with all pink chips. I know you would like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol... yes I love that game, but its still the same problem. A pink chip game is essentially a 15/30 game at 1/2 price. Its possible this is also why the pink games died out over time as well in AC.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but in a 15/30 game you wouldnt need the 2/3 blind structure because the blinds could be 7.50/15 as opposed to the 5/7.50 in the AC games.

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I disagree regarding the 3/2 structure. It's much better for the fish because they are playing all their small blind hands anyways, and the extra money makes it less of a mistake.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Agreed. I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned earlier.



[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree completely. Players who play this badly lose their money fairly quickly anyway. So that's not the problem.

The problem occurs with the weak playing regulars who now get caught up in a faster speed game, especially callin raises out of the small blind.

I've watched this game break weak regulars for years, and its history is to burn out and reduce the number of games. That's because the core of players who start games and keep games going is reduced. It's not because the tourists who play terribly and lose all their money a little quicker or a little slower are affected.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi anduril:

Wynn also has a must move rule which has the effect of breaking games. So they're not thinking in those terms. What I believe happens is that certain people voice their preferences and Wynn accomodates without considering the full impact of what their decisions might be.

In Las Vegas, for a poker room to be successful, it must be able to work well with the gambling pit. Both Mirage and Bellagio understand how to do this, and that's one of the reasons that both of these rooms are much better run than many people will give them credit for.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Jeffage]

Kind of interesting b/c when I played 40-80 at Wynn, an obvious high roller from the pit sat down with NO CLUE how to play hold em, he had just seen it on TV. He only had $1000 baccarat chips, but the poker cage COULD NOT take them. Instead he had to sit and stew for about TWENTY MINUTES while a floorperson returned to the Baccarat cage to get cash for the chips and then return to the poker room. Needless to say, this guy was very irritated.

Jeff

[PMoney]

If you don't mind me asking, what is all this "rail" talk. I am new to the game. Are you saying that the better the rail/or making use of it means its in plain sight and more newbies will sit down to play? Why else is the rail so important? Just curious.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Luv:

It's even more than this. I believe it would be great for Las Vegas poker to become a truly competitive environment. I do appreciate what MGM/Mirage has done for poker, but I think things could be even better if there was a strong independent cardroom that could successfully spread all limits.

Wynn looked like a real good shot for this to happen, but so far it has not been successful for precisely the reasons discussed in this thread. However, I still believe there is time to fix all of this, but I also feel time is running out.

Best wishes,
Mason

[benfranklin]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't mind me asking, what is all this "rail" talk. I am new to the game. Are you saying that the better the rail/or making use of it means its in plain sight and more newbies will sit down to play? Why else is the rail so important? Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

The "rail" is the rail or velvet rope or whatever that separates spectators from the tables. If the tables right next to the rail have attractive games going, it is more likely that spectators will stop and watch the games, and eventually come into the poker room/area to join a game. If the good games are so far away from the rail that spectators can't see what is going on, people won't stop and watch and then eventually join in the game.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I'm not sure why this would happen, it's ridiculous. I suppose there's some crazy gaming regulation, whether NGC or internal at wynn, that kept them from taking the baccarat chips. Petty and pointless if you ask me, no matter what the source. I've heard of this problem existing at other casinos as well, larger sized baccarat chips can't be used for poker or other games. Not sure what the logic would be for such a rule, but can't see it myself.

The big players from the pit are NOT who you want to run off from a poker room. They are usually there to blow off a little steam and relax for a while inbetween their high stakes sessions elsewhere in the casino. Piss them off in the poker room and they might just be pissed off enough to go take their high stakes play next door. They're often times mega-fish to boot! The small stakes (to them) in the poker room are just a relaxing break, and you WANT them to be happy! It's just plain crazy that there's a silly rule about not sharing chips between different pits.

al

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why this would happen, it's ridiculous. I suppose there's some crazy gaming regulation, whether NGC or internal at wynn, that kept them from taking the baccarat chips. Petty and pointless if you ask me, no matter what the source. I've heard of this problem existing at other casinos as well, larger sized baccarat chips can't be used for poker or other games. Not sure what the logic would be for such a rule, but can't see it myself.

The big players from the pit are NOT who you want to run off from a poker room. They are usually there to blow off a little steam and relax for a while inbetween their high stakes sessions elsewhere in the casino. Piss them off in the poker room and they might just be pissed off enough to go take their high stakes play next door. They're often times mega-fish to boot! The small stakes (to them) in the poker room are just a relaxing break, and you WANT them to be happy! It's just plain crazy that there's a silly rule about not sharing chips between different pits.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

What I dont understand is why the chip runner didnt give him the regualr chips immediately, and then go to the baccarat area to change the larger chips. Probably a security measure, but it seems excessive.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]


What I dont understand is why the chip runner didnt give him the regualr chips immediately, and then go to the baccarat area to change the larger chips.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why this would happen, it's ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
The big players from the pit are NOT who you want to run off from a poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes. Yes. and Yes.


I'll also add that if I were at that game I possibly would have been even more pissed at the Wynn management for pissing off a fishy player who I would love to have in my game.


Lets face it.
Not everyone has much experience in the poker-room before and doesn't know how it all works.
The room needs to be prepared to handle total beginners who think they can just walk right up to any seat in the room and sit down (like they would at a blackjack table).


I saw a dealer (not at the Wynn) chastise a player for saying 'where are my cards?' after he sat down. The dealer said, "You know you have to post if you want to be dealt-in to this hand. You know those are the rules." (etc etc). It was OBVIOUS that the player was new and had no idea what he was talking about.


Management and dealers need to do a better job of welcoming total newbie's into the game and helping them along (and not always assuming that every player knows what they are doing)

[Jeffage]

Yea, I was pretty pissed at this, but didn't want to make a big stink b/c it would seem like I was over eager to "get this sucker in action." It's just incompetance at the highest level for them not to give him money to play b/f exchanging the chips...the 1000's he had were obviously from the Wynn and obviously good. If he had walked out of this game, I would have followed for sure (this guy WAS the action, the game wasn't that good).

Also in this game, some dealer VERY rudely told this same individual that playing out of the rack wasn't allowed. Ok, I get the rule. But it's like...you've been dealing this game for 20 mins and know this is the biggest game in the room and this guy is the only action. He should know not to be an ass since no one else is complaining. If you must say something, be polite. Also, this same dealer took about 10 minutes to collect the time "because he had never done it before."

Last thing that ticked me off about the room...was playing 10-20 Omaha8 waiting for the 40 seat and the dealer (who was good) never got a push. Finally, a floorperson came to relieve him (since they were "out" of dealers); this individual had NO IDEA how to deal this game and basically admitted it, letting the players tell him who won. And this is a floorperson.

I do like the room and think it has potential, but I won't give them much action until A) they get the games I want, B) these games are good and C)they work out the kinks they have.

Jeff

[PokerBob]

How chips from one area of the casino aren't good at another is beyond me. This seems like it should be taught on the first day Casino 101: Make sure players can lose their money EVERYWHERE with minimal effort. Unbelievable.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]

Also in this game, some dealer VERY rudely told this same individual that playing out of the rack wasn't allowed. Ok, I get the rule. But it's like...you've been dealing this game for 20 mins and know this is the biggest game in the room and this guy is the only action. He should know not to be an ass since no one else is complaining. If you must say something, be polite. Also, this same dealer took about 10 minutes to collect the time "because he had never done it before."

[/ QUOTE ]

Its good that dealers point this out to players rather than ignore it, but it must be handled with tact. I have played in rooms that do not allow racks on the table at all unless the are sideways and 1/2 on the edge of the rail, this is to prevent cheating (a card can be easily stored under the rack by a mechanic), if I was a card room manager I wouldn't allow racks on the table at all unless the player is racking up to leave. When the policy is unison and enforced politely by the dealers rather than the nitty players (which is unfortunately most often the case) it makes for a much better run room.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[10-20Jerome]

Sounds like you won there, bet you wouldnt be on the soapbox if you dropped a couple Gs. IMO there are too many poker rooms in VEGAS now. Ive even heard the Vientian(sp) is planing on opening one up. Just a rumor, but the casino are really just wanting to take advantage of the boom. You cant really blame them I mean they are businesses.

If they continue to open new rooms in a already saturated markert the players will lose. This is not like regular economics, to many is a bad thing in this case. They treat us like cattle already. I would like to sit in on some of there meetings that discuss poker room agendas. Probably goes something like this

1. Get the rake

2. Hurry up, if you make a mistake no bigge not our money

3. In case the above happens dont forget the rake

4. Avoid giving a comp at all cost, those are for pit players

5. Act rude if someone questions your judgement

6. Speard nothing but holdem, break a stud game if there is a large list for holdem(faster game= more rake)

7. Did I metion the rake?

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Jerome:

I think it goes a little bit different.

"How can it be that so many of our customers now want to play hold 'em. Don't they understand that if we take out the machines and table games and replace them with poker we won't make as much money. In fact, if we do enough of this, our casino won't be able to pay its overhead. But we probably don't have a choice since our customers will go elsewhere. So the solution is to have a poker room, but try to keep our expenses as low as possible, and get those rakes and tournament entry fees as high as possible."

Best wishes,
Mason

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Jerome:

I think it goes a little bit different.

"How can it be that so many of our customers now want to play hold 'em. Don't they understand that if we take out the machines and table games and replace them with poker we won't make as much money. In fact, if we do enough of this, our casino won't be able to pay its overhead. But we probably don't have a choice since our customers will go elsewhere. So the solution is to have a poker room, but try to keep our expenses as low as possible, and get those rakes and tournament entry fees as high as possible."

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't at all go like that. The idea that the casinos *mind* spreading poker is incorrect. The reason it wasn't spread as widely in the past is simply because there wasn't demand. If Craps took off for whatever reason, there'd be more craps games, and the casinos wouldn't mind adding them either if their addition meant a net increase in cash flow.

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]

It doesn't at all go like that. The idea that the casinos *mind* spreading poker is incorrect. The reason it wasn't spread as widely in the past is simply because there wasn't demand. If Craps took off for whatever reason, there'd be more craps games, and the casinos wouldn't mind adding them either if their addition meant a net increase in cash flow.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that Mason and 10-20Jerome are a little harsh, to see it doesn't at all go like that also seems inaccurate. There is plenty of demand for low limit tables, but higher limits pay off better even if fewer will play.

Poker returns far less per square foot than other games. No question about it. At some point, if you have enough square footage, a poker room becomes worthwhile from a marketing standpoint.

It just so happens that right now, there is enough interest in poker that it is more important to have the room from that marketing standpoint. It's a checkbox on the property that they want to answer "yes" to, like a swimming pool.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

That's completely wrong. Casino executives will tell you that they get more complaints from their small poker room than the rest of the casino put together, poker attracts an undesirable element, poker doesn't make as much money as other games/machines, poker is labor intensive and that comes with lots of problems, poker players want too many comps, and lots of other related things.

I do agree that to some degree this is now changing, but it still has a long ways to go.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Stevie:

You wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Poker returns far less per square foot than other games.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key, and it is only true as long as the other games/machines are being utilized. If they sit there empty, as they often do then that's certainly not the case.

Casinos, especially now, are being to realize that poker does add some value to their property. But in general, they are afraid that it has the potential to damage revenue, not enhance it.

A good example of this is clearly The Wynn Casino poker room. Not only is it not seeable from the gaming pit, but there are virtually no signs indicating that it is even there.

That's not by accident. When Wynn built The Bellagio, he did the exact same thing to the poker room there. It was put to the side out of the way and there were no signs anywhere in the casino that a poker room even existed.

In fact, and I can't release all the details here, but I know for a fact that Wynn had become very unhappy with poker about 6 months before The Bellagio opened. Based on what I know, we were lucky to get a poker room in there at all.

Best wishes,
Mason

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]

In fact, and I can't release all the details here, but I know for a fact that Wynn had become very unhappy with poker about 6 months before The Bellagio opened. Based on what I know, we were lucky to get a poker room in there at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

Michael Craig writes about Wynn's wavering commitment to poker rooms at the Mirage and Bellagio in chapter 2 of "The Professor, The Banker, and The Suicide King."

I have to imagine it is tough for any casino manager to dedicate staff and resources to poker.

It's very easy for us as poker enthusiasts to scoff at Mohegan Sun, say, for removing their poker room just before the boom. But to this day they claim that they made more money with slots in that space, and they may very well be right.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Casinos, especially now, are being to realize that poker does add some value to their property.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because there is now a demand for poker. 4 years ago, the demand was next to nonexistant.

[ QUOTE ]
But in general, they are afraid that it has the potential to damage revenue, not enhance it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this were the case, why would any casino spread poker?

I think you underestimate just how much changing demand and perception have changed casino management attitudes towards poker. In the end, they will do what is most profitable for the casino as a whole. Right now, especially for Strip properties with lots of floor space, that means adding a poker room.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
To this day they claim that they made more money with slots in that space, and they may very well be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they haven't yet re-added a poker room, then very clearly they are making more money now. That is such a dynamic market that it wouldn't at all surprise me if they did better with more slots.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't at all go like that. The idea that the casinos *mind* spreading poker is incorrect. The reason it wasn't spread as widely in the past is simply because there wasn't demand. If Craps took off for whatever reason, there'd be more craps games, and the casinos wouldn't mind adding them either if their addition meant a net increase in cash flow.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's completely wrong. Casino executives will tell you that they get more complaints from their small poker room than the rest of the casino put together, poker attracts an undesirable element, poker doesn't make as much money as other games/machines, poker is labor intensive and that comes with lots of problems, poker players want too many comps, and lots of other related things.

[/ QUOTE ]

If all that is true, they (casino management) wouldn't add/expand poker rooms. If it's not true, then it would seem they take the approach suggested in my original post.

[TimTimSalabim]

Neon signs don't generate any revenue either, yet casinos keep pumping money into them.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Neon signs don't generate any revenue either

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do. How well do you think a casino on the strip without any neon signs anywhere would do?

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neon signs don't generate any revenue either

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do. How well do you think a casino on the strip without any neon signs anywhere would do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my point. They function similarly to a poker room.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neon signs don't generate any revenue either

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do. How well do you think a casino on the strip without any neon signs anywhere would do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my point. They function similarly to a poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

BTW, this thread is showing exactly why casinos actually base their decisions on what is making them the most money and very little else. On one hand, we have this post saying that poker is a marketing tool that brings people in, on the other, Mason is saying that casinos believe they bring in disgruntled customers, low relative profit and basically "undesirables". It can't be both (but it can be neither). So casinos go with the data, i.e., what will make them the most money *right now*.

This isn't to suggest that viewpoints such as looking at poker rooms as a new amenity don't exist, but it is to suggest that such considerations are a fairly small portion of the decision making process. The biggest part of the process, by far, is "what will directly make us the most money."

[El Diablo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neon signs don't generate any revenue either

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure they do. How well do you think a casino on the strip without any neon signs anywhere would do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my point. They function similarly to a poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

BTW, this thread is showing exactly why casinos actually base their decisions on what is making them the most money and very little else. On one hand, we have this post saying that poker is a marketing tool that brings people in, on the other, Mason is saying that casinos believe they bring in disgruntled customers, low relative profit and basically "undesirables". It can't be both (but it can be neither). So casinos go with the data, i.e., what will make them the most money *right now*.

This isn't to suggest that viewpoints such as looking at poker rooms as a new amenity don't exist, but it is to suggest that such considerations are a fairly small portion of the decision making process. The biggest part of the process, by far, is "what will directly make us the most money."

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't really read this thread at all, but I'm pretty sure whatever Clarky writes is wrong, cuz he's really stupid.

[TimTimSalabim]

Yes, it can be both. Even disgruntled poker players (and gruntled ones /images/graemlins/grin.gif) spend money in the rest of the casino. And bring their spouses/buddies along who do as well. And some people might even choose a casino because it has a big and famous poker room, not even wind up playing poker, yet drop a bunch of money. All of which is more true today, with poker's "glam" status, than ever.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest part of the process, by far, is "what will directly make us the most money."



[/ QUOTE ]

Just because an effect is not direct or quantifiable does not make it insignificant and not worth considering. Go back to my neon sign analogy. Neon signs generate no *direct* revenue, yet casinos put a lot of money into having a bigger,flashier one than their neighbors.

[TimTimSalabim]

Not to belabor this point, but bars, restaurants, and sports books, like poker rooms, are all less directly profitable per square foot than slot machines. Yet there's a reason they're found in almost every casino.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

Here's the way I see it. Casinos are adding poker as a defensive move. They have become aware that many of their customers are now interested in poker and are becoming afraid that if they don't add poker they will lose those customers to other properties that have it. However, in many cases they also think that by adding poker and taking out machines for instance their revenue will drop. It's just that by not adding poker their revenue will drop even more due to lost of customers.

While someone like myself is thrilled with the boom in poker (and the subsequent sales of our books), I suspect (and know) that many casino executives don't feel the same way.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

Of course it's true. Look at all the poker rooms that closed in Las Vegas during the 1990s. The trend only reversed the last year-and-a half or so.

Let me tell a little story. In 1995 I just happened to be in the Desert Inn (which is where the Wynn property is now located). It was one of the last times that Frank Sinatra played in town and there was a show line; and based on the way the people were dressed this was clearly the type of customers that this upscale casino strived for.

At the same time in the corner of the casino, their small poker room (four or five tables) was holding a $12 buy-in tournament. I remember looking at those customers and telling the people I was with that that poker room would be closed in the near future. Of course I was right.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Clark:

That's not what I'm saying. You need to read all my posts again.

I do agree that casinos do make their decisions as to what will bring them the most money, and there is no question that poker is part of that equation. However, because poker has now become part of that equation, I believe that many casino executives look upon it as "a lessor of two evils." They understand that bringing in poker may cause their profits to drop. But they also understand that their profits may drop even more if they don't bring it in.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't really read this thread at all, but I'm pretty sure whatever Clarky writes is wrong, cuz he's really stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you really have to say that. We need all the posters we can get. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Tim:

This is only true if the machines are getting a fair amount of use. I can think of some very large casinos, and The Bellagio was a good example, where they have large banks of slot machines that get very little use.

In fact, The Bellagio removed a bunch of these particular machines that got very little play to expand the poker room.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to belabor this point, but bars, restaurants, and sports books, like poker rooms, are all less directly profitable per square foot than slot machines. Yet there's a reason they're found in almost every casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to belabor the point, but I think you are missing *my* point. Namely, that the first two posts I responded to, particularly Mason's, which suggested that casinos have something inherently against opening poker rooms, are wrong.

[Eder]

poker doesn't make as much money as other games/machines

How does a casino's sportsbook stack up with their poker room/$$/square foot?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But in general, they are afraid that it has the potential to damage revenue, not enhance it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this were the case, why would any casino spread poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the way I see it. Casinos are adding poker as a defensive move. They have become aware that many of their customers are now interested in poker and are becoming afraid that if they don't add poker they will lose those customers to other properties that have it. However, in many cases they also think that by adding poker and taking out machines for instance their revenue will drop. It's just that by not adding poker their revenue will drop even more due to lost of customers.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's an interesting spin on your first post.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
However, because poker has now become part of that equation, I believe that many casino executives look upon it as "a lessor of two evils." They understand that bringing in poker may cause their profits to drop. But they also understand that their profits may drop even more if they don't bring it in.


[/ QUOTE ]

That point wasn't at all made clear in your posts until just now IMO. But let me just suggest that you now seem to be suggesting that casino profits are dropping. Or at the very least had been, otherwise there wouldn't be all these new low limit rooms. But the performance of casinos once we got further away from 9/11 couldn't possibly be any stronger.

[The DaveR]

[ QUOTE ]
poker doesn't make as much money as other games/machines

How does a casino's sportsbook stack up with their poker room/$$/square foot?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the wrong metric. It's how much does one make vis-a-vis the other at the margin.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Tim:

This is only true if the machines are getting a fair amount of use. I can think of some very large casinos, and The Bellagio was a good example, where they have large banks of slot machines that get very little use.

In fact, The Bellagio removed a bunch of these particular machines that got very little play to expand the poker room.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. They analyzed the poker room, what they think they would earn if they replaced some machines compared to what the machines were earning, and made a decision.

I think your suggestion that they "made the decision in spite of hating poker" is a terrible misrepresentation of how casinos operate today. It may have been true 10 years ago, but even then, the attitude against poker was simply because there was very little demand. There was a time when slots were rare. As the demand changed, casino attitudes about slots changed. It's not personal, and you seem to think it is. It's just about money.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker doesn't make as much money as other games/machines

How does a casino's sportsbook stack up with their poker room/$$/square foot?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the wrong metric. It's how much does one make vis-a-vis the other at the margin.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not totally true. There are significant location premiums within the casino, particularly for slots.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
poker doesn't make as much money as other games/machines


[/ QUOTE ]

The reason poker rooms are spreading is because right now they *are* making as much (or more) than some table games and machines.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't at all go like that. The idea that the casinos *mind* spreading poker is incorrect. The reason it wasn't spread as widely in the past is simply because there wasn't demand. If Craps took off for whatever reason, there'd be more craps games, and the casinos wouldn't mind adding them either if their addition meant a net increase in cash flow.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's completely wrong. Casino executives will tell you that they get more complaints from their small poker room than the rest of the casino put together, poker attracts an undesirable element, poker doesn't make as much money as other games/machines, poker is labor intensive and that comes with lots of problems, poker players want too many comps, and lots of other related things.

[/ QUOTE ]

If all that is true, they (casino management) wouldn't add/expand poker rooms. If it's not true, then it would seem they take the approach suggested in my original post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Clark:

Of course it's true. Look at all the poker rooms that closed in Las Vegas during the 1990s. The trend only reversed the last year-and-a half or so.



[/ QUOTE ]


Right. That's my point. They open and close, expand and contract with the demand for poker. There obviously wasn't much demand in the 90's, and there also obviously is significantly more demand now.

[10-20Jerome]

Yes I have to agree somewhat with that but dont they(casino ex)realize alot of these people wouldnt be in a casino at all if not for poker? Ive heard countless stories from younger guys that go DAMN JUST LOST A G AT THE CRAPS TABLE WAITING FOR THIS GAME, or JESUS CHRIST GOT WHACKED AT THE LET RIDE LAST NIGHT, etc.

I know for a fact these Johnny come latelies would never dream of playing carbiean(sp) stud if they where not intoduced to gaming via ESPN. I know this because a few of my friends never steped into a casino untill they saw MONEYTAKER win it all in 2003 on espn. They decided they can do that(I can see why they thought that after that performence) but then end up loseing a couple hundred palying poker then of too the pits for some real gambleing.

This is just my opinion though.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]

That's not what I'm saying. You need to read all my posts again.

[/ QUOTE ]


All 3,499 of them??

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's not what I'm saying. You need to read all my posts again.

[/ QUOTE ]


All 3,499 of them??

[/ QUOTE ]

POTY /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
At the same time in the corner of the casino, their small poker room (four or five tables) was holding a $12 buy-in tournament. I remember looking at those customers and telling the people I was with that that poker room would be closed in the near future. Of course I was right.

[/ QUOTE ]
This really isn't true anymore. Today, poker is part of the mainstream. Many people who go to the casino mainly for poker play other games while they are there (at my local casino, there are many players who take a pager after putting themselves on the list and go out to the pit, and there are frequently people taking breaks from my 20/40 game to go play bacarrat).

Additionally, many people who come for other games will also play poker. When I used to play at foxwoods, there were lots of college kids who would come down and for them the casino experience included playing some slots, some pit games, some poker, etc. I talk to coworkers now who take trips to Vegas any many of them spend a little time playing in small poker games to take a break from blackjack.

It is no longer the case that the poker room crowd is separate from the crowd for the rest of the casino. Today, to a lot of people, poker is another gambling game like roulette or slots. Having a variety of games to choose from (and being able to switch to a different game when you are getting unlucky at what you are playing) is what makes casinos exciting and fun. Many of these people would not keep going back if the casino was a giant building containing nothing but slot machines.

[gnawk]

Mason, let me understand your viewpoint here. Unless the Wynn decides to cater to the 40 or so pros who play at the Bellagio (and I know most of them) 30-60 game, or the higher limit pros, or the semi pros who play 15- 30, or the regular who win a hand and walk around for an hour, then the Wynn cannot succeed. What's wrong with offering tourists (I hate that term that Vegas residents use to describe someone who Doesn't live there) a good classy experience, especially if they can fill up the room consistently.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
especially if they can fill up the room consistently.


[/ QUOTE ]



They are not filling up the room consistently.
If they ran their room better they would be getting more players is the argument.

If they continue to run their room badly they will run-off even more of their potential long-term customers.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker doesn't make as much money as other games/machines


[/ QUOTE ]

The reason poker rooms are spreading is because right now they *are* making as much (or more) than some table games and machines.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Mason actually made this point in an Essay I read just last week in Poker Essays 1. Interesting to see that the revenue derived from poker is increasing, therefore driving the interest in building new rooms. It is my belief that the Vegas and AC markets have both hit oversaturation with the addition of this summers newest rooms (including Ceasers) and cannot withstand the current rate of growth.

2) I was reading an article in Gambling Times today describing Wynn's table game profits as being close to 60% (if I remember correctly) of all casino revenues, and that the driving force behind table games seems to be televised poker. The article went on to say how slots peaked in 2002 with revenues dropping drastically ever since because the young crowd which watches poker on TV and plays mostly table games wants to differentiate itself from their parents game - which is of course slot machines. The article further went on to describe how plans are in the works at some casinos to bring the poker room the center of the pit so it is closer to the remainder of the table games. As I stated in a previous post Wynn plans to move it's poker room to a central location within the year once construction on the new casino expansion is complete (I should get an update on these plans in 2 weeks, I have another meeting with an employee there at the end of august).

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[RydenStoompala]

[ QUOTE ]
I think we all agree on that. That we like the room at Wynn and want it to succeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. Now, somebody send them a link to this thread.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
poker doesn't make as much money as other games/machines


[/ QUOTE ]

The reason poker rooms are spreading is because right now they *are* making as much (or more) than some table games and machines.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Mason actually made this point in an Essay I read just last week in Poker Essays 1. Interesting to see that the revenue derived from poker is increasing, therefore driving the interest in building new rooms. It is my belief that the Vegas and AC markets have both hit oversaturation with the addition of this summers newest rooms (including Ceasers) and cannot withstand the current rate of growth.

2) I was reading an article in Gambling Times today describing Wynn's table game profits as being close to 60% (if I remember correctly) of all casino revenues, and that the driving force behind table games seems to be televised poker. The article went on to say how slots peaked in 2002 with revenues dropping drastically ever since because the young crowd which watches poker on TV and plays mostly table games wants to differentiate itself from their parents game - which is of course slot machines. The article further went on to describe how plans are in the works at some casinos to bring the poker room the center of the pit so it is closer to the remainder of the table games. As I stated in a previous post Wynn plans to move it's poker room to a central location within the year once construction on the new casino expansion is complete (I should get an update on these plans in 2 weeks, I have another meeting with an employee there at the end of august).

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

#1: I believe that there is a nearly limitless market for 2-4 to 4-8 limit and 1-2 to 2-5 no limit games. Beyond that, there is definitely oversupply. But if every casino on the strip opened a 6-8 table room, they could all survive in the short term.

#2: A couple of odd things about Wynn. They aren't the only casino experiencing huge TG win. The Venetian has long been a place that thrived on tables. Wynn also had an unreal $9k/table/day win rate for the first 30 days. That dropped to $4k/table/day over the second 30 days. The TG % of casino revenue dropped significantly and the ratio will certainly decline. Even after dropping, I'd be shocked if their poker win/day comes anywhere close. The best I'd expect they could have done in that room last quarter is about $1,200/table/day, likely less. You can see their reported results here. (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1174922/000119312505155278/d10q.htm)

As for the article about slot revenues going down, it's incorrect from a market perspective, though there may be a small number of individual casinos where that is true. A quick comparison of the NGC revenue reports for 2002 (http://gaming.nv.gov/gamefact02.htm) 2003 (http://gaming.nv.gov/gamefact03.htm) and 2004 (http://gaming.nv.gov/gamefact04.htm#4b) shows that the number of slot machines has decreased slightly and the number of table games have remained flat. However, slot revenue continues to increase at a very strong rate. Between 2003 and 2004 slot win increased at a noticably higher rate than tables. The trend for higher slot hold due to general price inelasticity of slot players will likely continue to keep slot revenues rising for the forseeable future regardless of the number of machines in play.

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
#1: I believe that there is a nearly limitless market for 2-4 to 4-8 limit and 1-2 to 2-5 no limit games. Beyond that, there is definitely oversupply. But if every casino on the strip opened a 6-8 table room, they could all survive in the short term.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting point. A few years back, before there were any no limit games, I quietly suggessted to a cardroom to make $10-$20 hold 'em and $15-$30 stud their smallest games, and to double their rake.

Well, the doubling of the rake did occur.

Best wishes,
Mason

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the article about slot revenues going down, it's incorrect from a market perspective, though there may be a small number of individual casinos where that is true. A quick comparison of the NGC revenue reports for 2002 (http://gaming.nv.gov/gamefact02.htm) 2003 (http://gaming.nv.gov/gamefact03.htm) and 2004 (http://gaming.nv.gov/gamefact04.htm#4b) shows that the number of slot machines has decreased slightly and the number of table games have remained flat. However, slot revenue continues to increase at a very strong rate. Between 2003 and 2004 slot win increased at a noticably higher rate than tables. The trend for higher slot hold due to general price inelasticity of slot players will likely continue to keep slot revenues rising for the forseeable future regardless of the number of machines in play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a copy of the article in front of me, I'll quote off some of the stats for us all because its rather interesting, it comes from Gambling Today not Gambling Times as I previously stated in error:

For the first 64 days of operation the casino generated a win of 98.7 million. Slots produced revenues of 34.2 million with a win of $273 per slot/day. Table games "raked" in 62 million ($7,117/day which is a hold of 21%). The article also goes on to say that the dealers averaged $373 in tips per day, which is double the average tip revenue of other casinos.

To wrap up this post last night I saw a CNBC special about the business of Las Vegas, featuring Mr Wynn himself.He is a very good orator, I found myself captured by his spell. He claimed .20 on the dollar is profit on all overall gaming (I would assume this is calculated at year or quarter end). He also claimed the casino is profiting at a rate of 4 million per day now that things have slowed down after the fever pitched launch.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif