98s in SB from Mason's notes

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
For example, when playing hold 'em if you hold nine-eight suited in the small blind, and the player on the button is first in with a raise, the correct play (against most players) is to reraise. That's because your hand is too good to fold against a possible steal raise, and you would prefer to keep the big blind out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thoughts? Are you guys really reraising this against "most" players?

[skillzilla]

yep

[Nick C]

That part of the Notes stood out to me as well, since 98s has been practically an auto-fold for me in that spot.

Now I'm wondering if I don't defend my SB enough.

Mason doesn't reveal the structure, which is a factor (for some hands, even if not for 98s), so I went with the default while reading and figured he was discussing a 1/2 structure.

[brettbrettr]

For me its been a pretty regretable auto-fold, hence my post.

[Nick C]

Well, up until this morning, if I were MP3 at the table and I saw SB 3-bet versus a steal with 98s, I would have been one of the people at the table who misinterpreted the play. (Well, except that, actually, in the games that I play, this "misinterpretation" would very frequently turn out to be correct and SB would in fact end up being a LAG.)

Most of my preflop strategy comes from 2+2 in the first place, though. So it's hard for me to use anything that I know to argue against this latest 2+2 recommendation.

Anyway, though, 98s is, what, about 50/50 heads-up versus a random hand? And Button's hand should be better than random, on average. So I'm thinking we're going in as a dog, but if things go according to plan (BB folds and Button just calls), we are getting about 9:5 (4 1/2 to 2 1/2) and potentially have created some folding equity for ourselves on the flop. So there's that.

I'm hoping that Mason will run across this thread and offer further explanation.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example, when playing hold 'em if you hold nine-eight suited in the small blind, and the player on the button is first in with a raise, the correct play (against most players) is to reraise. That's because your hand is too good to fold against a possible steal raise, and you would prefer to keep the big blind out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thoughts? Are you guys really reraising this against "most" players?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's player dependent. I don't think he's talking about the average player you see today. When did he write this essay? This is more against a player that steals on a more regular basis.

b

[Dynasty]

I remember this article when it first appeared in Card Player because I was as surprised as the OP. Since then, I've incorporated it into my game (though not always 100% of the time) and it's had reasonable success.

I remember the first time I did it was with precisely 98s. I flopped middle pair, rivered trips, and got quite a look from my lone opponent at the showdown. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Nick:

[ QUOTE ]
Most of my preflop strategy comes from 2+2 in the first place, though. So it's hard for me to use anything that I know to argue against this latest 2+2 recommendation.


[/ QUOTE ]

This advice first appeared in the original edition of HPFAP which was published in 1988. So it's not new.

Best wishes,
Mason

[phish]

I think this play is a little player-dependent. If the raiser is someone who plays fit or fold, then this becomes a very powerful play. But if the raiser is a tenacious aggressive player post-flop, then you may actually be better off calling or folding.
Years ago, before the days of internet poker, I routinely made plays like this to great effect. But now in some of these more aggressive games (live and especially internet), I think routinely making this play may not be very effective.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Nick:

[ QUOTE ]
Most of my preflop strategy comes from 2+2 in the first place, though. So it's hard for me to use anything that I know to argue against this latest 2+2 recommendation.


[/ QUOTE ]

This advice first appeared in the original edition of HPFAP which was published in 1988. So it's not new.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how the advice was phrased in the first edition of HPFAP, but I can see that it's possible that I misinterpreted the following advice from the latest edition: "if you are going to play (usually with a hand in Groups 1-6), you should almost always reraise" (p. 44).

I may have placed more emphasis on the "if you are going to play" part than was intended.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For example, when playing hold 'em if you hold nine-eight suited in the small blind, and the player on the button is first in with a raise, the correct play (against most players) is to reraise. That's because your hand is too good to fold against a possible steal raise, and you would prefer to keep the big blind out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thoughts? Are you guys really reraising this against "most" players?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against most of the players you and I play against in our private game you should be 3-betting liberally with 98s from the SB against a button open raise. And I do preface that with most because opponents who are naturally showdown bound, and also when the big blind will always call 3 bets its not that valuable of a strategy anymore.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Red_Diamond]

Today I just read that article for the first time, and yes that statement did jump out at me also. I have felt that it was surely a -ev move, but if Mike Caro stops by and adds his vote to it, then I'll start betting on it too. (no pun intended)

[Hoi Polloi]

The raise is intended to get the BB to fold. As TT suggests, as the likelihood of that outcome goes down the overall value of the play is diminished. 3-ways, first to act is not a good situation for the hand, IMO.