Backgammon article in UK newspaper

[ipp147]

Jist of the article.

Cypriot based market leader play65 has 500,000 registered users after less than a year trading.

They predict backgammon will be 70-80% the size of the poker market in 2009.

Will be one of 2 new games launched by PartyGaming this year.

Is legal in the US as it falls on the "right" side of the skill/luck divide.

There is going to be a $1m televised tournament in the summer.

Anyone here play backgammon online? Is it profitable?

[tomdemaine]

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They predict backgammon will be 70-80% the size of the poker market in 2009.



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I really hope not, I can't play backgammon worth a damn /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Martin]

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They predict backgammon will be 70-80% the size of the poker market in 2009.

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That would be cool but there just aren't enough fish playing at the minute to make it really worthwhile. It is fun though.

I did read another article, some while back, that talked about televizing the tournaments much like what happened with Poker originally. I wonder if the TV public would buy it? Or do they just buy anything that gets marketed enough?

[MyMindIsGoing]

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talked about televizing the tournaments much like what happened with Poker originally. I wonder if the TV public would buy it? Or do they just buy anything that gets marketed enough?

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It already happened, I saw a game from what I think was Monte Carlo, Paul Magriel commentated. I found it pretty decent actually, even though I know nothing about it.

[beset]

I'd be shocked if backgammon made a comeback to his 1970s glory. That'd be awesome tho. I'd have to get back into it. IS the market leader they are referring to Gamesgrid or TrueMoneyGames?

[other1]

I play on play65 but I can't really comment on profitability.. I play mostly for fun at this point because I'm not that good.

One interesting difference.. players have ratings based on their past play makes finding the fish easy, but of course they probably wouldn't accept a real money game with someone highly rated.

[MyMindIsGoing]

I just saw an ad for it. It is called "hi stakes backammon" and is on poker zone http://www.pokerzone.tv/ on wednesdays. Apperently what I saw was the 30th world championship of bg.

more info: http://www.pokerzone.tv/backgammon.aspx

[mustmuck]

I haven't played backgammon since I was a kid, so I don't really know anything about the game.

That said, it strikes me as the type of game where "most" players are going to be worse than a computer player?

[Akzhel]

Yeah bots will definetely be a problem in online backgammon. I am not a superexpert but I would say that a bot play backgammon perfectly compared to poker and even chess.

[Quicksilvre]

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That said, it strikes me as the type of game where "most" players are going to be worse than a computer player?


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There are some programs out there (like Jellyfish) that are Deep Blue strong. Some of them are supposed to even double well. There will have to be some major bot policing if online backgammon is going to get off the ground.

[send_the_msg]

i think that article is complete bull. people like playing poker because they know that even if they suck they'll get lucky once and a while and make some cash. in bg that just won't happen. with the ratings system no one would pay to play someone better than them. the only thing that might succeed is tourney bg. also as mentioned above bots will rape humans. google backgammon blitz and you'll get a good example of an ai that crushes most players.

[Timer]

The article is complete nonsense. Backgammon online is a total bore. There is no way it will capture anywhere near the amount of business the article states.

I played online for a while and hated it. It was less than fun.

[Alex Scott]

I've been getting into backgammon recently and I've been playing online - just for play money mind you. Backgammon makes a nice change from poker and vice versa.

One of the things I immediately thought was that computer programs like Snowie could be used to cheat in a way, by giving you the best possible move or doubling decision for every position you found yourself in (it is possible to program a position into a program like Snowie and get a pretty quick result).

Now that I've been playing for a bit longer, I think that the problem is most likely overstated. There are a couple of key problems with using a program like Snowie to assist your play:

1. You'd end up with a rating so high that nobody would want to play you. You could try to alter this rating by intentionally losing small-stakes matches, but this would be obvious to anti-fraud software and is prohibited by the rooms.

2. Backgammon rooms use programs like Snowie themselves to analyse every match. If you made the perfect move every time, this would stand out like a sore thumb (no backgammon player in the world plays exactly like Snowie) and your account would be suspended. You'd have to randomise your moves somehow - make the occasional blunder - and this would of course lower your profit.

3. Backgammon software is designed to detect programs like Snowie running on your computer - just as poker rooms are programmed to detect WinHold'em and similar cheating software. If you're caught, again, you'll be suspended.

4. Games with fast timers, which are common, would run too quickly to enable you to input a position into Snowie, get a result, and play it successfully.

There probably are people out there using software like Snowie to cheat, but I think they are probably few and far between. I'm not paranoid enough to let the possibility deter me from playing for real money once I'm good enough.

[testaaja]

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3. Backgammon software is designed to detect programs like Snowie running on your computer - just as poker rooms are programmed to detect WinHold'em and similar cheating software. If you're caught, again, you'll be suspended.


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This is probably true but it just struckt me. What if someone runs analyser on other computer? It's not that hard to do and you couldn't detect it. I agree with that if you don't randomize it you will be suspended but I think it really can be done. If backgammon is ever going to be as big as poker is now I think there will be many bots. Not for public though. (yes I'm paranoid..)

[BluffTHIS!]

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i think that article is complete bull. people like playing poker because they know that even if they suck they'll get lucky once and a while and make some cash. in bg that just won't happen. with the ratings system no one would pay to play someone better than them. the only thing that might succeed is tourney bg. also as mentioned above bots will rape humans. google backgammon blitz and you'll get a good example of an ai that crushes most players.

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Either David or Mason said in one of their 2+2 writings if I remember correctly, that the great thing about poker was that experts could play with non-experts without having to give them a spot or handicap. That is why what you say would seem correct, unless of course the sites did not display the players' ratings to other players, but only used them internally as part of fraud detection.

[PippyLong]

Orginial question: Anyone here play backgammon online? Is it profitable?

I started playing backgammon at a newish site called Club Games (www.clubgames.com) its pretty fun, no bots. I'm not that good, so I haven't been profitable, but the beauty of backgammon is the skill/ luck factor, with the right dice, anyone can win.

I read somewhere that backgammon is the number one side game of world class poker players. I think the article is optmistic, but could be right on. backgammon is really fun, imo....

[kewl_cph]

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Orginial question: Anyone here play backgammon online? Is it profitable?

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I have a friend that plays a lot of BG. He told me that one his friends, which is a good, but not like world class good, player made £2000 a month playing online in his free time (he has a full time job).

So it seems to be possible.

[bobhalford]

I think backgammon is profitable. I don't play for profit though, but I will soon. I've heard that the fishy sites are Gammon Empire and play65. I play at True Money Games, only because you can right-click to make points and move checkers. This makes a big difference in usability, and as far as I know the other sites don't offer this functionality. The players at TMG are good, even for small stakes, so I'm basically a breakeven player. However, if I can find bad players on these other sites that want to gamble, I should be able to make some money.

I doubt backgammon will make a big comeback though. I recently talked to Tony Robles, world class pool player, and he said that pool was making a big comeback. Apparently there are some new televised tournaments coming up that are going to change the pool world. So who knows, maybe both predictions will come true.

However, I do think that backgammon will become more popular in the future. The recent poker/gambling trend and the convenience of the internet should bring new and experienced players alike to gamble online. Poker players are bound to realize how awesomely sick backgammon is as a gambling game, and what a great distraction it is after hours of poker. Maybe poker players will start to bring backgammon boards to the cardroom to challenge one another if the poker game gets boring.

Just like in poker, there are big fish in the backgammon pond. When they make a big mistake, like taking a double they shouldn't, you make money. I'm going to sign up for one of the fishy backgammon sites soon, to see what kind of fish are there.

The other thing that should attract poker players and other gamblers to backgammon is that you can review your moves using snowie or gnu, and see how well you did. You can see how good or bad your moves are, whether you doubled at the correct time, or how good or bad your take was. I think that the existence of this software alone should be enough to attract a lot of new players.

The poker players I've spoken to don't seem all that interested in backgammon, which I find somewhat strange. To me, bakgammon and poker are like brother and sister. I think that if any good poker player bothered to look into it, they would find something they really really like.

[beset]

I've been playing at gammon empire, play65 and TMG for some time now. Excellent games.

If you really want to improve though its worth the money to register at GamesGrid. You can play against some of the best players in the world and purchasing coaching from the likes of Bill Robertie, etc.

tyler