Tipping at WSOP ?? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

renodoc

07-23-2006, 04:07 AM

whoa!

I wasn't complaining at all, and sorry if it came across that way. I just wanted to get an idea of what people were doing, what was expected, and basically just start a discussion.

That being said, it would be very nice if Harrah's was explicit about the amount of money given to the dealers for each event. We have all seen different tactics to insure proper dealer tokes from various places. At our local tourney, my current strategy is to include the dealers in any discussion of chopping the prize money. This educates newbies, and reduces the awkwardness when the second place winner throws more money in the kitty than the first place winner does.

For myself, I tend to tip more at restaurants which DONT add the automatic 18% on parties of 6 etc. In fact, I think it is to the waiter's detriment to include the gratuity amount in this situation, but I guess they often get stiffed.

At the Reno Hilton WPT a couple months ago, they had instituted this new form which listed your gross cash and then had a spot for how much you wanted to leave the dealers etc. I object to this method because I don't think its anyone's business to have a written record of what a player tips.

At the WSOP, which winners are responsible for toking the dealers then? Anyone who cashes? The FT? The winner? And how much? How much would you expect the ME winner to leave this year?

OK, hopefully discussion ensues...

THAY3R

07-23-2006, 04:14 AM

Both times I have cashed they have just made me fill out paperwork, and then given me cash. Not once did they say anything about recommending I tip, nor did I have any idea where to tip.

So I didn't.

- I assume though if I FT'ed it would be different, and I would be "told" something.

benza13

07-23-2006, 04:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
- I assume though if I FT'ed it would be different, and I would be "told" something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Judging by last year you wouldn't.

Photoc

07-23-2006, 04:36 AM

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6371401&an=0&page=0

WSOP Tipping thread should help out a ton.

pssst...Harrah's sucks, pass it on.

psandman

07-23-2006, 04:43 AM

Tipping discussions inevitablely breakdown to flame wars so no real point to starting a discussion on it, but since you did:

TO MAKE IT CLEAR I AM DEALING THE WSOP THIS YEAR.

No one has to TIP and you should only tip that which you are comfortable with.

I think that anyone who cashes at an event should give some consideration to the dealers. These events are all two and three day affairs which require a lot of dealer hours. Sure if you just squeak into the money your not making much, but even a small gratuity helps to compensate the dealers for their work.

How much would I expect the ME winner to leave this year? Well quite frankly I expect the ME winner to leave nothing.

But if I were to win this event whne decising how much to toke (I'm not sure how much I would toke) I would certainly be keeping in mind that this event is 14 days long and requires a huge amount of dealer hours. As such i would be inclined to toke much more for this event than for a two day event with the same payout.

psandman

07-23-2006, 04:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Both times I have cashed they have just made me fill out paperwork, and then given me cash. Not once did they say anything about recommending I tip, nor did I have any idea where to tip.

So I didn't.

- I assume though if I FT'ed it would be different, and I would be "told" something.

[/ QUOTE ]

At one point they were asking players if they wanted to leave something for the dealers. someone complaine dto higher ups at Harrah's and the rule came down that players being paid tournament winnings could not be asked if they wanted to leave anything for the dealers as this was considered tip hustling.

renodoc

07-23-2006, 06:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6371401&an=0&page=0

WSOP Tipping thread should help out a ton.

pssst...Harrah's sucks, pass it on.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks. missed that thread completely- mods please combine if appropriate

Jimbo

07-23-2006, 10:15 AM

I believe in tipping for individual exceptional service. I generally do not feel my service is exceptional when tips are pooled. I particularly dislike having a percentage removed prior to cashing in a tourney and then having a dealer expect me to tip him again.

I would prefer a no (additional) tipping allowed policy at large tournaments which have a prtion of the prize pool deducted in advance with dealers understanding this up front. Then if they still choose to deal there would be no more of these threads.

Many but not all dealers seem to think that if they quit dealing poker players would have no poker games to play. This is naive and far from the truth, someone will always take the job plus people played poker for many years before profesional dealers existed. I do tip well in cash games and tourneys with no tip juice upfront. No amount I might win at a WSOP event would prompt me to tip extra without feeling that I got exceptional service from the vast majority of dealers throughout the tournament.

Jimbo

psandman

07-23-2006, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Many but not all dealers seem to think that if they quit dealing poker players would have no poker games to play. This is naive and far from the truth,

[/ QUOTE ]

While it is true that there will always be someone who would take the dealing job if everyone quit toking, it is also true that it would probably not be the people you want dealing. Its generally the same people who don't tip who don't tip well even for a good dealer that are the first to complain about all the problems with "b dealers. Well if you reduce dealing to a minimum wage job you will not have experienced dealers because the job will be a temporary job for people like McDonald's. Sure there is always someone working the fry machine but there aren't many people working the fry machine for 10 years.

Its a sort of bizarre circle the WSOP has gotten into. Each year more an more of the experienced dealers decide its not worth it to go through this crap for the amount of money we make, so the next year they need to hire more dealers who are less experienced (and this really shows in the games like Stud, Razz, Omaha, TD). As a result the players complain about the dealers and tip less, which results in fewer dealers seeking to come back. Sure there are some who will come back over and over again, but the number is fewer while the need for dealers increases.

I make over $10/hr less dealing the WSOP than I make in my year round dealing job. So why would I come back? To make less money while working harder, being mistreated by management.

I dealt a satellite a couple of weeks ago. It went real smooth, not a even a hiccup. Two players chopped the satellite. One of the players complimented my dealing and left me a small tip (which i appreciate) but then insisted on telling me that he would tip more but that he hates Harrah's. Why would you do that.ou hate Harrah's so you take it out on the dealers. Why play the event at all if you hate Harrah's?

pig4bill

07-23-2006, 05:29 PM

The floor person that closed out a single table satellite that I chopped in flat out said "I'm sure you appreciate the dealers, be sure to leave them something". This was yesterday, so apparently the word to "not hustle tips" didn't filter down to her.

Lawman007

07-23-2006, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why play the event at all if you hate Harrah's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gee.......I don't know..........let's see...........maybe because you want to play in the WSOP and Harrahs owns it?

Lawman007

07-23-2006, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TO MAKE IT CLEAR I AM DEALING THE WSOP THIS YEAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you refused to answer this question 3 times in that other thread, I'll ask it again. What percentage of the prize pool goes to the dealers? You denied that it was 3%, but you refused to state how much it is.

I'm usually a very good tipper, but if I go to a restaurant where they automatically include the gratuity, I don't tip any extra even though I would have tipped more if the gratuity had not been included.

I see the WSOP the same way. If I'm already being forced to tip dealers by having that gratuity automatically taken out of the prize money, then why should I tip any more than that? I'm open minded about this, so I'm really interested in hearing why players should tip more than we're already being forced to tip.

psandman

07-24-2006, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TO MAKE IT CLEAR I AM DEALING THE WSOP THIS YEAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you refused to answer this question 3 times in that other thread, I'll ask it again. What percentage of the prize pool goes to the dealers? You denied that it was 3%, but you refused to state how much it is.

I'm usually a very good tipper, but if I go to a restaurant where they automatically include the gratuity, I don't tip any extra even though I would have tipped more if the gratuity had not been included.

I see the WSOP the same way. If I'm already being forced to tip dealers by having that gratuity automatically taken out of the prize money, then why should I tip any more than that? I'm open minded about this, so I'm really interested in hearing why players should tip more than we're already being forced to tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a general principal I decline to state the amount in a public forum. However, every player that I have heard ask a floorperson for the information has been given the information. So simply ask a suit at the event. I probably should be more specific and tell you to look for a suit who seems higher up as the bottom line floors are kind of clueless.

As to why you should tip more even though you are already being forced to "tip". Your comparision to a restaurant adding a 18% gratity to a bill automatically really doesn't apply here. It would be more along the lines of a restaurant raising the prices by a small percentage and increasing employees wages by that small percentage in order to guarantee a minimum level of compensation. Basically that is what Harrah's has done, they are promising the dealers a percentage of their juice to provide a modicum of protection to dealers from the possibility that people don't tip.

If I order a pizza and the restaurant adds a $1 delivery charge, if I would have otherwise tipped the driver $ still tip him. I might tip only $3 but i still give what I would have otherwise given.

What I can tell you is this. Using the assumption of 8000 players and the money being split evenly by 600 dealers (it won't be even) If I were to work 11 8 hour days over the course of the Main Event and no one were to toke and dealers only recieved what harrah's has promised them from juice, my hourly toke rate would be around 50% of what i make in my regular dealing job. I happen to be working both jobs right now, but many of the dealers here take off from there jobs and travel to Las Vegas to deal this event. If they make 50% of what they could make in there regular jobs do you think they will be incline dto come back?

I'm not the best dealer. Bu have been playing poker for a long time, and dealing for 2 years. I am constantly trying to improve my dealing and I care about what I do. I am an adequate dealer, a good dealer at hold'em, but my stud pitch is really bad (I have little occasion to deal stud) and I can be slow to read Hi-Low hands (again this is not part of my daily routine) The players I have dealt to have all seemed happy with me and I have received no sunstantial complaints. I believe that if all the dealers were at least as competant as I am players would be generally happy with the quality fo service though there would still be room for improvement. I won't be coming back to the WSOP unless there are sunstantial changes made. Now If I won't be coming back and I don't have to take off from my regular job, drive across country and find a place to live, why should those better dealers who have to go through all that come back if they are going to make half the money they could back "home". Bottom line is that many will not come back. Well if you drive out those of us who are at least adequate while the need for dealers increases, it means you have to hire more inadequate dealers.

So one answer to the question why should you tip when the dealers already get a percentage is this? If you care about coming back and participating in this event and others in years to come, and you want to have competant dealers, the compensation for the dealers needs to be at a level that will attract competent dealers, and since dealer compensation has traditionally been based upon tokes, if you choose not to toke, then put at risk the quality of dealers you will have in the future. You will still have some very good dealers, you will still have some adequate dealers, but you will get larger and larger percentages of break in dealers.

Photoc

07-24-2006, 02:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well if you drive out those of us who are at least adequate while the need for dealers increases, it means you have to hire more inadequate dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now if Harrah's management would only figure this part out. Considering they have pissed off about 75% of the dealers already this year, about 1/5 - 1/4 of them have either walked out of not shown up for work (quit) on one day or another, this kind of says something about the way things are being run over there.

What's even worse is that I know of at least 5 experienced dealers that went over there in the past couple of weeks, after the exodus of dealers started, to try to get jobs. Their response: We're not hiring right now, we have a class in progress and we have to start these folks first, then if there is any room when the ME starts, we may contact you.

WTF!!! They just have to hire these break in dealers first before EXPERIENCED ONES just because they are giving a free f'in class to them?

WALMART!!!...errr...Harrahs doesn't give a [censored] about the players or the employees. This has been proven.

52s

07-24-2006, 02:27 AM

psandman,

People just want to know WHAT THE PERCENTAGE IS THAT GOES TO THE DEALERS.

That's it.

No one's asking for what you, personally, are making on your check.

Just for info that's been public for the past several years but that this year, has been hidden from the public.

Anyway, from pokernews.com, here's what Gary Thompson is quoted as saying the dealers' cut is:

[ QUOTE ]
When asked for comment on this situation, Gary Thompson, Director of Communications for the WSOP had this to say.

"I think there is a lack of understanding on the part of the dealers as to what the compensation package is going to be this year."

"The fact is for all events except the Main Event, we are taking 2.5% of the prize pool {for the dealers}, versus 2.0% last year. For the HORSE, and Main Event, we are taking 1.5% of the prize pool, versus 1.4% of the prize pool last year, and the prize pools are bigger across the board."

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/7/whats-deal-dealers-upset-conditions.htm

52s

07-24-2006, 02:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What's even worse is that I know of at least 5 experienced dealers that went over there in the past couple of weeks, after the exodus of dealers started, to try to get jobs. Their response: We're not hiring right now, we have a class in progress and we have to start these folks first, then if there is any room when the ME starts, we may contact you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Make it at least 6.

I went on a whim and was flatly told by one guy "We are not hiring any dealers.", even after I told them I've dealt every game they're running, and correctly, 'cause, well, I have, and I'd get in the box and show him, and still, "Nope."

OTOH, my talk with Sue Phillips went smooth as silk and I was able to sign up to do the Circuit Events, if I wish to do so, pretty damn easily.

[ QUOTE ]
WTF!!! They just have to hire these break in dealers first before EXPERIENCED ONES just because they are giving a free f'in class to them?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you mean the break-ins that were already hired and on-board getting classes.

Photoc

07-24-2006, 02:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you mean the break-ins that were already hired and on-board getting classes.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, they should never have been hired without being experienced, just like the advertisement said. Experience dealers only please apply. They had more than enough experienced ones, some were new, but they have pissed off most everyone since before day 1. It's no wonder why they have to bring in break-ins now. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

52s

07-24-2006, 02:50 AM

I think we've got a disconnect.

I know they brought in break-ins when they were hiring the original group of 700-750... are you saying they hired MORE break-ins AFTER the dealers were heading for the door?

The other person I know that went and asked for work after the dealers started leaving (and he went like, the next day after the story broke, and he's also got experience) was also told they weren't hiring at all.

Photoc

07-24-2006, 03:13 AM

AFAIK, there is/was a class of dealers running during the WSOP preliminary events. I don't know if this class has finished but these people were put in this class because Harrah's wanted to make sure they had enough for the ME. I think it's wrong that experienced dealers can't get hired, but people who are taking a class will get thrown right into the mix of the biggest poker event in history and all they had to do was go through a training course.

Jooka

07-24-2006, 03:21 AM

The thing I dont like about this is Harrah's and the dealers are putting the players inbetween there feud about what is or is not a reasonable wage.(tips essentially) Both parties wont cough up a reasonable answer except that its either adequate or inadequate pending which side you ask. I cant make a reasonable judgement as to if I think the dealers are or are not making an adequate tip. Which in turn makes me want to tip less because who knows what the [censored] is going on.

MicroBob

07-24-2006, 04:05 AM

turning away experienced dealers for dealers who don't know what they're doing is really pathetic.

I don't care if they take the class or not.
The new dealers who haven't done it before qualify as "don't know what they're doing" even if they pick it up fairly quickly and are actually half-decent.

Throwing them into the fire in some fairly intense situations is just not fair to them (instead of them growing and getting more comfortable dealing less-intense low-stakes games).
And it's REALLY unfair to the players.

Arnett23

07-24-2006, 05:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm usually a very good tipper, but if I go to a restaurant where they automatically include the gratuity, I don't tip any extra even though I would have tipped more if the gratuity had not been included.

[/ QUOTE ]

I work in a restaurant and I hear that excuse all the time and it is usually from the cheapest people that would have actually left less. The included gratuity in parties of 8 or more or whatever is not a very good tip at all, it is just put on there so the server gets at least a little something. Go wait tables for a bit and after the 10th time of waiting on 10 people that ring up a 700 dollar tab then leave you 50 bucks cause they "think" that is a good tip and you will add the gratuity every time. If you can't at least tip 20% then stay home.

octop

07-24-2006, 05:25 AM

If I was paying a 700 dollar tab and you were a crappy waiter you would be lucky to get 50 from me.If you were very good you would get about 150 or so. If you dont think thats enough (its probably a lot more than you deserve as it takes the same effort to bring 10 fifty dollar stakes to the table as it does to bring 10 2.99 vegas special stakes to the table) your out of your mind.

CardSharpCook

07-24-2006, 05:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Both times I have cashed they have just made me fill out paperwork, and then given me cash. Not once did they say anything about recommending I tip, nor did I have any idea where to tip.

So I didn't.

- I assume though if I FT'ed it would be different, and I would be "told" something.

[/ QUOTE ]

You rock. Someone doesn't ASK for a tip, so why give it to them??? Screw the dealers, I'm a cheep son of a B.

I've cashed twice, once significantly, and tipped 1% each time. Who cares if I only mady $700, I still tip 1% of the cash. $20 the first time, $370 the second. Who cares if th 1% happens to be of $2200 or $37000m, the dealers deserve a tip.

psandman

07-24-2006, 11:04 AM

Actually one of the problems the dealers have is that many of us belive that they have too many dealers, During One meeting the DC swore to us that no new dealers were being hired when dealers complained. Yet everyday there seem to be new people hired anyway.

psandman

07-24-2006, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I've cashed twice, once significantly, and tipped 1% each time. Who cares if I only mady $700, I still tip 1% of the cash. $20 the first time, $370 the second. Who cares if th 1% happens to be of $2200 or $37000m, the dealers deserve a tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I and all of the dealers appreciate that. One thing tha regret about these tournaments is that I am not able to personally thank each person who leaves me something since I am not there at the time.

Lawman007

07-24-2006, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TO MAKE IT CLEAR I AM DEALING THE WSOP THIS YEAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you refused to answer this question 3 times in that other thread, I'll ask it again. What percentage of the prize pool goes to the dealers? You denied that it was 3%, but you refused to state how much it is.

I'm usually a very good tipper, but if I go to a restaurant where they automatically include the gratuity, I don't tip any extra even though I would have tipped more if the gratuity had not been included.

I see the WSOP the same way. If I'm already being forced to tip dealers by having that gratuity automatically taken out of the prize money, then why should I tip any more than that? I'm open minded about this, so I'm really interested in hearing why players should tip more than we're already being forced to tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a general principal I decline to state the amount in a public forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then as a general principle, I'm not going to tip the dealers any extra because they are already being tipped out of the money taken from the prize pool. I don't see how you can deny that the dealers are getting 3%, then refuse to state what percentage they are getting. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, the dealers are getting 3% of the prize pool, which is a more than adequate tip.

Lawman007

07-24-2006, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm usually a very good tipper, but if I go to a restaurant where they automatically include the gratuity, I don't tip any extra even though I would have tipped more if the gratuity had not been included.

[/ QUOTE ]

I work in a restaurant and I hear that excuse all the time and it is usually from the cheapest people that would have actually left less. The included gratuity in parties of 8 or more or whatever is not a very good tip at all, it is just put on there so the server gets at least a little something. Go wait tables for a bit and after the 10th time of waiting on 10 people that ring up a 700 dollar tab then leave you 50 bucks cause they "think" that is a good tip and you will add the gratuity every time. If you can't at least tip 20% then stay home.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be both a waiter and a bartender, so I tip very well, usually at least 25% if I get at least decent service and sopmetimes more than that if the service is exemplary. If you're employer wants to gouge me for 15% regardless of the quality of the service, then I'm not tipping anymore. If you don't like that, then take it up with your employer, not me.

Lawman007

07-24-2006, 12:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I order a pizza and the restaurant adds a $1 delivery charge, if I would have otherwise tipped the driver $ still tip him. I might tip only $3 but i still give what I would have otherwise given.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would do that, too. Let's use the analogy of room service in a hotel. There is usually a "service charge" added to the bill, as well as a blank line for a tip. I always ask the waiter, "do you get the service charge?" If he says yes, and the service charge is 20%, then I'm not going to tip him anymore because I am already giving him an adequate tip by paying the service charge. If the hotel, rather than the waiter gets the service charge, then I will give the waiter a tip.

If the dealers are already getting 3% of the prize pool, i.e., I am already giving them a 3% tip, then I'm not inclined to give any more. If the dealers aren't getting 3%, then it would certainly make sense for you to tell the hundreds of players reading this thread how much the dealers do get, since it might convince us to give an extra tip to the dealers.

psandman

07-24-2006, 12:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TO MAKE IT CLEAR I AM DEALING THE WSOP THIS YEAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you refused to answer this question 3 times in that other thread, I'll ask it again. What percentage of the prize pool goes to the dealers? You denied that it was 3%, but you refused to state how much it is.

I'm usually a very good tipper, but if I go to a restaurant where they automatically include the gratuity, I don't tip any extra even though I would have tipped more if the gratuity had not been included.

I see the WSOP the same way. If I'm already being forced to tip dealers by having that gratuity automatically taken out of the prize money, then why should I tip any more than that? I'm open minded about this, so I'm really interested in hearing why players should tip more than we're already being forced to tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

As a general principal I decline to state the amount in a public forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then as a general principle, I'm not going to tip the dealers any extra because they are already being tipped out of the money taken from the prize pool. I don't see how you can deny that the dealers are getting 3%, then refuse to state what percentage they are getting. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, the dealers are getting 3% of the prize pool, which is a more than adequate tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its obvious you want an excuse not to tip, so you will take whatever excuse you can find. As I said, if you ask the officials at the event they will tell you what the percentage is.

07-24-2006, 12:41 PM

Can someone please logically justify to me why tips should be paid in percentages as opposed to absolute amounts? If tips are gratuities for good service, then how was my service any better for finishing in 1st then the poor schmuck who finishes in 2nd? We should both tip the same exact amount, IMO.

07-24-2006, 12:43 PM

edit: I was too harsh... statement retracted. I'll reword when I am feeling less grumpy.

Lawman007

07-24-2006, 12:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone please logically justify to me why tips should be paid in percentages as opposed to absolute amounts? If tips are gratuities for good service, then how was my service any better for finishing in 1st then the poor schmuck who finishes in 2nd? We should both tip the same exact amount, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the same rationale beind tipping in a restaurant. Somebody who has a $5 meal doesn't tip the same amount as somebody who has a $100 meal. They tip a percentage, which is really the only equitable way to do it.

Using your rationale, even those players who don't cash should tip the same amount as the guy who wins the tournament, since they all got the same service from the dealers.

07-24-2006, 12:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's the same rationale beind tipping in a restaurant.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that rationale is? Pointing out another case of how the rationale in question is applied does not automatically justify it.

[ QUOTE ]

Using your rationale, even those players who don't cash should tip the same amount as the guy who wins the tournament, since they all got the same service from the dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. The winner receives many more hours of service than do people who do not even cash.

amb

07-24-2006, 01:16 PM

You will be getting 1-2% of whatever I win.

I once was at the Hard Rock and some guy was just DESTROYING the craps table (you guys have been there, $1,000 turns into $20,000 after an hour (just thinking about it puts a smile on my face)), and I was throwing $25 chips at the dealers. Once I accidentally threw a $500 chip at them (I was drunk and they look similar to the $25) and the dealer threw it back at me and said 'take this back and give me a $25'. I think that the Hard Rock dealers probably make more than most so the quality is better (he could have put the chip in the tip box and I would have never known).

Plus my whole family is in the service industry and I was raised from an early age to tip. Whatever, I’m sure I’ll be criticized for this opinion but I think its good for the dealers, for the players, and for the game (the more money they make, the more quality we see).

renodoc

07-24-2006, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can someone please logically justify to me why tips should be paid in percentages as opposed to absolute amounts? If tips are gratuities for good service, then how was my service any better for finishing in 1st then the poor schmuck who finishes in 2nd? We should both tip the same exact amount, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the same rationale beind tipping in a restaurant. Somebody who has a $5 meal doesn't tip the same amount as somebody who has a $100 meal. They tip a percentage, which is really the only equitable way to do it.

Using your rationale, even those players who don't cash should tip the same amount as the guy who wins the tournament, since they all got the same service from the dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this example:

You go out to dinner at the same steakhouse twice. The first time you go with a bunch of wine noobs and order 6 bottles of the house wine. The next time you go with your wine snob friends and order 6 bottles of vintage bordeaux (yum). The food you order is exactly the same both times, but the wine cost from the second visit is substantially more than the first.

Should you tip the same on both visits? The "work" is probably the same...

07-24-2006, 02:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can someone please logically justify to me why tips should be paid in percentages as opposed to absolute amounts? If tips are gratuities for good service, then how was my service any better for finishing in 1st then the poor schmuck who finishes in 2nd? We should both tip the same exact amount, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the same rationale beind tipping in a restaurant. Somebody who has a $5 meal doesn't tip the same amount as somebody who has a $100 meal. They tip a percentage, which is really the only equitable way to do it.

Using your rationale, even those players who don't cash should tip the same amount as the guy who wins the tournament, since they all got the same service from the dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this example:

You go out to dinner at the same steakhouse twice. The first time you go with a bunch of wine noobs and order 6 bottles of the house wine. The next time you go with your wine snob friends and order 6 bottles of vintage bordeaux (yum). The food you order is exactly the same both times, but the wine cost from the second visit is substantially more than the first.

Should you tip the same on both visits? The "work" is probably the same...

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. So convince me that tipping more for the second meal is logical as opposed to simply adhering to a social norm.

tourney guy

07-24-2006, 03:06 PM

This has clearly been the best thread of all time. The issues are clear, the ideas are spoken with passion, and there is a genuine understanding.

A few points I would like to make:

1) The amount of money going to the dealers is less than 3%. Last year, it was clearly 3%. The literature was clear on it. This year, for a $1500 buy-in, for example, it say '9% is being withheld from the prize pool". What is omitted this year is the amount to the dealers. I can assure you it is less than 3%. It is closer to 1.5-2% (70% of 30% = 2.1%, but something tells me that the dealers in the larger events get less from the pool).

I can assure you Ken Lambert and John Grooms wouldn't short the staff!!

2) There are WAY MORE dealers this year than last. This explains why the pay for the dealers is miniscule as opposed to last year. I suppose the concept is to train dealers for the many events Harrahs runs (Circuit, etc.).

3) Is the service good quality?? I refuse to play in any WSOP events, period. The staff quality has declined immeasurably, the juice is outrageous, and the taxes are a joke. Having said that, I cannot make a comment on the quality of service. I suppose each person has to look at the overall quality of the product and decide whether or not an additional tip is necessay based on how good the staff is.

4) Asking for a tip - I never asked for a tip in my entire gaming career. It is about as classless as possible to do that. I have always said 'Give the best service, and the tips will take care of itself' I have never liked doing it, and wouldn't allow it in my area.

5) I think what is missing is the correlation between the juice and the additional tip, and this is where the restaraunt analogy falls short.

If I go to Alex at Wynn, I know the bill is going to be $200/head. I expect two things, great food and great service. I tip for great service, but still want good food. Any person who gets a ^%itty meal at $200/head, and says they still tip the full amount is lying. It just doesn't happen.

Same here - with the big juice, players expect fresh setups, quality dealers, floor decisions that are in line with the rules, streamlines registration and no bullcrap.

They have not gotten it. This has clearly affected the amount of tokes left for the dealers.

Why does the WPT charge the same or less for the big events and get much more tokes left for the staff???

Simple, they put out a great quality product with excellent, high-end service for the players.

It is really not that complicated.

If HET continues to have poorly-trained dealers and floor and big juice, they will never have great tipping.

What is most sad is the fact that HET WANTS it that way.

BigPoppa

07-24-2006, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
psandman,

People just want to know WHAT THE PERCENTAGE IS THAT GOES TO THE DEALERS.

That's it.

No one's asking for what you, personally, are making on your check.

Just for info that's been public for the past several years but that this year, has been hidden from the public.

Anyway, from pokernews.com, here's what Gary Thompson is quoted as saying the dealers' cut is:

[ QUOTE ]
When asked for comment on this situation, Gary Thompson, Director of Communications for the WSOP had this to say.

"I think there is a lack of understanding on the part of the dealers as to what the compensation package is going to be this year."

"The fact is for all events except the Main Event, we are taking 2.5% of the prize pool {for the dealers}, versus 2.0% last year. For the HORSE, and Main Event, we are taking 1.5% of the prize pool, versus 1.4% of the prize pool last year, and the prize pools are bigger across the board."

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/7/whats-deal-dealers-upset-conditions.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

So it looks like the guy wanted us to think that the dealers were getting a lot less than 3% when they are really getting a just little less.

Lawman007

07-24-2006, 04:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So it looks like the guy wanted us to think that the dealers were getting a lot less than 3% when they are really getting a just little less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that explains why he refused to answer the question. LOL

BigPoppa

07-24-2006, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm usually a very good tipper, but if I go to a restaurant where they automatically include the gratuity, I don't tip any extra even though I would have tipped more if the gratuity had not been included.

[/ QUOTE ]

I work in a restaurant and I hear that excuse all the time and it is usually from the cheapest people that would have actually left less. The included gratuity in parties of 8 or more or whatever is not a very good tip at all, it is just put on there so the server gets at least a little something. Go wait tables for a bit and after the 10th time of waiting on 10 people that ring up a 700 dollar tab then leave you 50 bucks cause they "think" that is a good tip and you will add the gratuity every time. If you can't at least tip 20% then stay home.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF?

I've never worked at a restaurant where the auto-grat wasn't a decent percentage, especially given that one party of 8 is a lot less hassle than 4 parties of 2.

Encourage people to tip, but don't lie to them.

07-24-2006, 05:00 PM

lol at

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't at least tip 20% then stay home.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my favorite part of this thread. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

TomCollins

07-24-2006, 05:23 PM

I heard from a dealer that Harrah's is taking NO juice, and it's all going to the floor and the dealers. He also claimed to be making $40-50/hr for this. He said anyone who tips is a sucker for not reading the fine print.

Don't be a sucker.

ItsJzH

07-24-2006, 05:54 PM

It does say that a certain portion of the prize pool is withheld for dealer tip, in fine print. That and them taking 4.8 mil off the top of the ME is enough to make no one feel as if they've got to tip.

Analyst

07-24-2006, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The included gratuity in parties of 8 or more or whatever is not a very good tip at all, it is just put on there so the server gets at least a little something. Go wait tables for a bit and after the 10th time of waiting on 10 people that ring up a 700 dollar tab then leave you 50 bucks cause they "think" that is a good tip and you will add the gratuity every time. If you can't at least tip 20% then stay home.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never worked at a restaurant where the auto-grat wasn't a decent percentage, especially given that one party of 8 is a lot less hassle than 4 parties of 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's clear that Arnett23 feels that the standard 18% gratuity for large parties is akin to getting stiffed, since 20% is barely acceptable to him.

I suspect that if I went to his restaurant, we'd both come away dissatisfied - me by his attitude, he by the tip that matches his attitude.

chopstick

07-24-2006, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can someone please logically justify to me why tips should be paid in percentages as opposed to absolute amounts? If tips are gratuities for good service, then how was my service any better for finishing in 1st then the poor schmuck who finishes in 2nd? We should both tip the same exact amount, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the same rationale beind tipping in a restaurant. Somebody who has a $5 meal doesn't tip the same amount as somebody who has a $100 meal. They tip a percentage, which is really the only equitable way to do it.

Using your rationale, even those players who don't cash should tip the same amount as the guy who wins the tournament, since they all got the same service from the dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of whether I agree or disagree with your stance, your logic makes little sense to me and doesn't address the question raised.

Kramerguy: justify percentage tips being better than flat tips as the most equitable tipping method.

You: restaurants use percentage tips. it is the only equitable method.

You give an example of a system that is similar to what you espouse, but you do not justify *why* it is equitable, which is what Kramerguy was asking in the first place. Your application of his logic also makes no sense, but he already addressed that.

While your analysis made no sense to me, I did think it was concisely written. Kudos to you for that.

Lawman007

07-24-2006, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While your analysis made no sense to me, I did think it was concisely written. Kudos to you for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks...........I think. LOL The percentage tipping method in a restaurant is how it's been done as long as I've been alive, and it's not likely to change in my lifetime, so a discussion of the rationale behind it is purely academic.

Jimbo

07-24-2006, 10:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
psandman,

People just want to know WHAT THE PERCENTAGE IS THAT GOES TO THE DEALERS.

That's it.

No one's asking for what you, personally, are making on your check.

Just for info that's been public for the past several years but that this year, has been hidden from the public.

Anyway, from pokernews.com, here's what Gary Thompson is quoted as saying the dealers' cut is:

[ QUOTE ]
When asked for comment on this situation, Gary Thompson, Director of Communications for the WSOP had this to say.

"I think there is a lack of understanding on the part of the dealers as to what the compensation package is going to be this year."

"The fact is for all events except the Main Event, we are taking 2.5% of the prize pool {for the dealers}, versus 2.0% last year. For the HORSE, and Main Event, we are taking 1.5% of the prize pool, versus 1.4% of the prize pool last year, and the prize pools are bigger across the board."

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/7/whats-deal-dealers-upset-conditions.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

So it looks like the guy wanted us to think that the dealers were getting a lot less than 3% when they are really getting a just little less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link Poppa, I suspect psandman will be suspiciously absent from this thread forward.

Jimbo

psandman

07-25-2006, 12:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
psandman,

People just want to know WHAT THE PERCENTAGE IS THAT GOES TO THE DEALERS.

That's it.

No one's asking for what you, personally, are making on your check.

Just for info that's been public for the past several years but that this year, has been hidden from the public.

Anyway, from pokernews.com, here's what Gary Thompson is quoted as saying the dealers' cut is:

[ QUOTE ]
When asked for comment on this situation, Gary Thompson, Director of Communications for the WSOP had this to say.

"I think there is a lack of understanding on the part of the dealers as to what the compensation package is going to be this year."

"The fact is for all events except the Main Event, we are taking 2.5% of the prize pool {for the dealers}, versus 2.0% last year. For the HORSE, and Main Event, we are taking 1.5% of the prize pool, versus 1.4% of the prize pool last year, and the prize pools are bigger across the board."

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/7/whats-deal-dealers-upset-conditions.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

So it looks like the guy wanted us to think that the dealers were getting a lot less than 3% when they are really getting a just little less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the link Poppa, I suspect psandman will be suspiciously absent from this thread forward.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. Is there anything I said that your link indicates isn't accurate? I said the Dealers percentage was less than 3%. You found a link where someone says it is 2.5% you conclude that I am wrong (BTW my understanding of what the dealers are getting is actually less than the 2.5% reported in that link but I will double check tomorrow.)

Calvin Lam

07-25-2006, 01:14 AM

i just wanted to say that a 50 dollar tip isn't a great tip off 700 - being in service - you should know that most places require you to post at least 8-10 percent of what you sell - no matter how you were tipped...

so say at that 700 dollar table - on your paycheck (say 10 percent for numbers sake) they would've taxed you 70 dollars - doesn't matter if you received it or not

I'm not saying that 50 dollars wouldn't be a good tip if the work wasn't hard - but its a bad tip because after tipping out the bartender/busser/host - 50 dollars isn't much - and if he was taxed on the 70 - he is most likely making almost nothing

ps.. don't make it so the server is paying you to sit at one of his tables...

Lawman007

07-25-2006, 01:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
(BTW my understanding of what the dealers are getting is actually less than the 2.5% reported in that link but I will double check tomorrow.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't bother. Nobody would believe you at this point anyway.

Photoc

07-25-2006, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(BTW my understanding of what the dealers are getting is actually less than the 2.5% reported in that link but I will double check tomorrow.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't bother. Nobody would believe you at this point anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Woot, another flame war.

Wtf is your problem. If sandman wants to keep his income private, that's his perogitive. If anyone wants to know, they can ask at the WSOP. There is no reason to give him [censored] for answering the questions to the limit that he is comfortable with.

He in fact said less than 3%, then another poster says that Sandman is lieing because it's 2.5%. Last time I checked 3>2.5. If one person says 2.5 and another one says less than 3, then it sounds like 2.5 is less than 3, but I could be mistaken.

Why does every tipping thread degenerate into nothing but a flame war every time one has been posted on this site for the past 4 years?

Tip if you want and how much you want. Don't tip if you don't want to. That is the absolute simplest answer.

tourney guy

07-25-2006, 01:56 AM

Photo - state the obvious.

The tip pct. to the dealers is closer to between 1.5 and 1.8.

Since last year they made 2.1 pct, the loss seems like a decent drop in pay.

That, combined with the gross overhiring that was done, you get a significant decrease in pay.

Simple, not hard.

As to what it should be,,,,,by the WSOP and you could make the tip rate whatever you want it to be.

Arnett23

07-25-2006, 02:30 AM

Seems like Calvin Lam is the only one that has worked in the service industry that has responded to this thread. On that $700 tab I have to tip out my busser/foodrunner and bartender $60. So that means I have to pay you $10 to wait on you. I get a paycheck every 2 weeks for 70-80 hours and it averages a whopping $50. That means all my income comes from tips. Most servers on the strip are required to tip out 40-50% of the tips they recieve. So I would like to see one of you sell 1 or 2 thousand dollars over 10 hours average 15% in tips and walke out with 50-100 dollars then walk out the door with a smile on your face. There is a reason most servers have a general dislike for most of the population and it is greatly shown by some of the cheap and arrogant people in this thread.

BobOjedaFan

07-25-2006, 02:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm usually a very good tipper, but if I go to a restaurant where they automatically include the gratuity, I don't tip any extra even though I would have tipped more if the gratuity had not been included.

[/ QUOTE ]

I work in a restaurant and I hear that excuse all the time and it is usually from the cheapest people that would have actually left less. The included gratuity in parties of 8 or more or whatever is not a very good tip at all, it is just put on there so the server gets at least a little something. Go wait tables for a bit and after the 10th time of waiting on 10 people that ring up a 700 dollar tab then leave you 50 bucks cause they "think" that is a good tip and you will add the gratuity every time. If you can't at least tip 20% then stay home.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me? At least 20%? I am a good tipper and I always leave 20%. I think 20% is a good tip. To call it a minimum is insane.

Lopaka

07-25-2006, 03:50 AM

Tipping percentages are determined by the free market. There is reason why 15% is regarded the minimum for satisfactory service and 20% is regarded necessary for good service. Servers tip out a large percentage of their tips to other support staff and in most states make a wage to only guarantee that a minimum of taxes be paid (in most U.S. states, servers are paid $2.13 an hour and often get pay checks that are "void"). Gratuities are one of the few safety provisions in place to protect servers (and the support staff who also live off server tips).
The free market takes time to come up a fair and honest number. In the relative new world of major tournament poker, this number is currently being balanced out. There will undoubtedly be people who fight convention with every possible logistical angle such as lawman007, by his unwillingness to pay the market value tip percentage for food service because of the automatic gratuity that is added as a safety net to protect the service staff, or octup on page three who will pay a lower percentage for the service he recieves when he buys a $50 "stake" as opposed to a $2.99 breakfast special, regardless of the fact that the professionalism, knowledge base, and size of the support staff that constistutes serving a $50 "stake" is much more than that of a $2.99 breakfast special.
Coming from a career that relies on tips (as a server), to currently engaging in one that people live off of tipping (as a poker professional), I see both sides of the coin and hope that while adequate tipping procedures are being ironed out, people tend toward being more generous than not, because it is easy to rationalize reasons why one shouldn't tip and much more difficult to come up with the character required to actually pay for a service that you recieve.

Arnett23

07-25-2006, 04:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding me? At least 20%? I am a good tipper and I always leave 20%. I think 20% is a good tip. To call it a minimum is insane

[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize, I was referring to good to exceptional service which is what I provide. If they do not seem as attentive as you like then I guess 15%. Although as a server I always leave at least 20% no matter what because I know there are times where the server is busy at no fault of his own and there is nothing that can be done about it.

07-25-2006, 08:50 AM

When I get service that I really don't like, leaving 6 cents is so much better than leaving no tip at all. This way, there's no confusion about whether or not I just forgot.

Foucault

07-25-2006, 09:39 AM

Psandman (or another WSOP dealer, if there are others in this thread),

I'd like to cut past all the flaming/arguing about whether tips are deserved or obligatory or whatever and just get your opinion on what I should tip in the following circumstances:

a)I win nothing and am overjoyed with my service;
b)I win nothing and had satisfactory service;
c)I win nothing and had dismal service;
d)I win $12,000 and am overjoyed with my service;
e)I win $12,000 and had satisfactory service;
f)I win $12,000 and had dismal service;
g)I win $1,000,000 and am overjoyed with my service;
h)I win $1,000,000 and had satisfactory service;
i)I win $1,000,000 and had dismal service;

I am not asking you disclose how much you are making, I would just like to know what you as a dealer would consider a fair tip in each of these circumstances. I, and I imagine many other non-sociopaths reading this thread, do not need to be convinced that you are not going to be adequately compensated by Harrahs's and that you deserve a tip.

Thanks,
Foucault

Lawman007

07-25-2006, 11:58 AM

psandman

07-25-2006, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Psandman (or another WSOP dealer, if there are others in this thread),

I'd like to cut past all the flaming/arguing about whether tips are deserved or obligatory or whatever and just get your opinion on what I should tip in the following circumstances:

a)I win nothing and am overjoyed with my service;
b)I win nothing and had satisfactory service;
c)I win nothing and had dismal service;
d)I win $12,000 and am overjoyed with my service;
e)I win $12,000 and had satisfactory service;
f)I win $12,000 and had dismal service;
g)I win $1,000,000 and am overjoyed with my service;
h)I win $1,000,000 and had satisfactory service;
i)I win $1,000,000 and had dismal service;

I am not asking you disclose how much you are making, I would just like to know what you as a dealer would consider a fair tip in each of these circumstances. I, and I imagine many other non-sociopaths reading this thread, do not need to be convinced that you are not going to be adequately compensated by Harrahs's and that you deserve a tip.

Thanks,
Foucault

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest i generally don't worry about whether a tip is fair or not. I appreciate every tip I get. Some people tip more, some people tip less. Some people don't tip at all. I can live with that.

What I can't tolerate is when people try to convince other people not to tip.

Since traditionally tipping in poker tournamnets is done by the winners nobody really expects you leave something if you don't win. However there are things you can do if you are ""overjoyed" with the service you received even if you didn't win in the event. You can compliment your dealers. You can go to there bosses and tell them how happy you are. You can refer more business to the place what provided you this service.

The proper tip size is the tip you are comfortable with. I hope that when you decide on that tip you consider several issues.

First is a realistic assessment of the service you receive. If you receive "dismal" service then no tip might very well be the in order. But also players should understand that some the things they may want done may not be consistent with procedure and small errors are just that small errors. Long before I dealt poker I learned that there are people who don't want to tip, and they will find a problem with service no matter what just to jusitfy not tipping, I frequently saw this in restaurants. Everything should be kept in its proper perspective. If you play in the Main event for 10 days, but on the first day a dealer said something that pissed you off, but the rest of the time service was good, why does that one moment in 10 days time have such an overwhelming impact in light of all the dealers that you have dealt with. Another thing is understand what service you dealer can provide to begin with. I have actually had players tell me they were tipping me less because Harrah's doesn't provide them any food comps. Its not in my control as a dealer to control Harrah's policy. Just like i can't do anything about the amount of juice Harrah's is taking. If you don't like Harrah's policy then don't blame the dealers, blame management

Second is the details of the event. People playing the Main Event at the WSOP should consider that this event is basically a 2 week event for the dealers. So when you decide on the toke you wishe to leave remember the amount of work that went into it and that the tip (including the percentage withheld) you leave is basically peoples pay for two weeks.. A perfect example of people ignoring this is the Caesar's daily low buy in tourney. I've heard almost nothing but good things said about this tourney by poker players, but the Dealers are getting killed. Why? because the size of the prize pool is the same as many daily smll buy-in tourneys and players toke the same amount as they do in the other tourneys, but the Caesars tournament has 40 minute rounds as opposed to 15 or 20 minutes in most other daily low buy in tournaments. so the Caesars Tourney takes signifcantly longer than thes eother tourneys. But at the end players toke the same amount so the dealers at Caesars end up making much less per down in the tourny. It makes no sense to me that you pay the dealers less in the tournament you like better, that gave you more play.

07-25-2006, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It makes no sense to me that you pay the dealers less in the tournament you like better, that gave you more play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This bothers me. On the one hand, you argue for tipping a percentage of your winnings because it is the most equitable way of tipping. But when that percentage works against you, then you are advocating that we break free from this percentage idea and just start tipping based on level of service received.

tourney guy

07-25-2006, 01:10 PM

The size of the prize pool is much larger at the CP tourney. Don't distort to facts here.

Winner gets 4-6K at CP tourney, and pays 10 spots. Compare with Orleans, MGM, Luxor, Golden Nugget, etc., with the same buy-in range......not even close.

I bet the hand-in is better at CP....why...the service and tournament structure is better.

wiper

07-25-2006, 03:05 PM

how about if you win the ME, you gather up all the dealers and buy them dinner??

kidding.

whoever wins the $10 million should in good conscience drop 100k to the dealers...

AngusThermopyle

07-25-2006, 03:23 PM

Just the ME.
4 starting days.
Say each dealer deals the first down on 3 of those days and starts on break on the 4th.
10 players at the table. Harrah's has "earmarked" $150 of the $600 they take out from each player for the dealers. Imagine the dealer getting the money right then.
$1500 for the table.
$4500 for the three tables.
Plus "wages".
Before any player "tips".
Two weeks work.

Blair Rodman

07-25-2006, 04:32 PM

The thing that bothers me about all this is that no one ever tells the players exactly how much dealers are making. We are the ones paying them when we tip, and I think we have a right to know. Why should it be a secret? If the information was available it would solve a lot of problems.

--Last year a dealer complained to a local newspaper reporter that the winners stiffed them in the ME, and implicated that all they made is minimum wage. She neglected to mention that over $1,000,000 was withheld from the prize pool for tips. Hachem might have gotten 8 million for first instead of 7.5, so Joe may have already tipped $500,000. How much did they make in tips per down? That is the real question, and I’ve never heard an answer.

--The reason that the above point is relevant is because many dealers tend to complain no matter how much they make. A case in point: I came in second in a WPT event and got 327k. I asked if 3% was withheld for the dealers and was told it was, so I didn’t tip more. If it hadn’t been withheld I would have tipped 10k, which I think is a pretty good tip. Since that’s about what was already taken for them, I figured everything was cool, and that it would be appreciated. The next day as I was leaving some of the final table dealers walked by me. I wanted to say goodbye and thank them, but they gave me a very cold shoulder. I was pissed. When I got home I called the TD. I wanted to make sure the dealers were well compensated. If not, I would consider leaving more. I was told that for the last super satellites, the last event before the ME and the ME, the dealers made about $70/hr plus their salary. I’m sorry, but there are a lot of highly trained, educated and skilled people who don’t make close to that. If $70/hr isn’t sufficient, I suggest they explore the job market and see what they find.

Enough secrecy dealers. How much are we paying you? Why should jt be a secret? We’re the
ones paying you. Once this information is available, more intelligent arguments can be made.

In my opinion, the forced tipping policy, which is a fairly recent innovation, has caused a lot of
problems and resentments between players and dealers. When it first was instituted, I knew it was
only a matter of time until it wouldn’t be considered a tip, and that more would be expected on top
of it. That happened rather quickly.

The bottom line is that the players are being looked to as a solution for the dealers’ pay problems.
We have our own problems, which are another topic. At this point, as players our options are to
either accept the situation or not play. Hopefully, through a united front, such as the WPA, we can
get some things accomplished. For dealers the situation is similar. If you don’t like it, either don’t
work there, or work together to improve things. But, don’t look to the people who pay for
everything, and without whom there would be no WSOP, for the solution Instead, look to the
organization that stands to make 100 million or so from the WSOP. I understand that you may feel
like you’re being screwed, but we’re being screwed too.

AngusThermopyle

07-25-2006, 04:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Enough secrecy dealers. How much are we paying you? Why should jt be a secret? We’re the
ones paying you. Once this information is available, more intelligent arguments can be made.

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding.
When I go to a restaurant, I have a rough idea how much the waiter makes as a base. I can see how many tables he services. I know how long he spent on my table. I have an idea how much an XX% tip translates into.
When I go to Bay101 or Garden City, I know the set-up with the dealers. I know roughly how many hands/downs they deal. I know what my tip of $X in a pot of size $Y translates into.
Cab driver, etc.

But the WSOP?

Photoc

07-25-2006, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Enough secrecy dealers. How much are we paying you? Why should jt be a secret? We’re the
ones paying you. Once this information is available, more intelligent arguments can be made.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see both sides of the argument, but why limit this to dealers?

You are paying Gary Loveman's wages, and every other exec that works for Harrah's with the juice. How about asking every single person what they are making and how much of a bonus they are getting for the WSOP 2006? That only seems fair at this point because everyone takes it out on the dealers, but no one remembers that it's Harrah's upper management running things and charging the juice, which they are getting most of for the corporation, and that in turn is paying the salary and any bonus they recieve.

Blair Rodman

07-25-2006, 07:02 PM

I think we have a right to know where every dollar that is withheld for a tip goes. Where the juice goes is a different issue. As far as taking it out on the dealers, I don't know what you mean. I would just like to know from the dealers who are complaining that they are not making enough is how much is not enough?

Photoc

07-25-2006, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would just like to know from the dealers who are complaining that they are not making enough is how much is not enough?

[/ QUOTE ]
I wish I could answer that question for you. But, look at table games dealers in virtually all casinos. They always say it's not enough. I think that's just human nature to want more no matter what.

I assume you do realize that part of the forced tip is going to supervisors and quite possibly higher management. It's never going to happen that you'll get a straight or accurate answer from anyone regarding this matter.

Blair Rodman

07-25-2006, 07:47 PM

I do understand that. My point is that players have done enough, and shouldn't be expected to do more. If dealers have a problem with the way things are, they should take it up with management.

Photoc

07-25-2006, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I do understand that. My point is that players have done enough, and shouldn't be expected to do more. If dealers have a problem with the way things are, they should take it up with management.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been proven in the past, there is nothing dealers can do. Management (bean counters) will always do whatever is best for the bottom line. This is why dealer's unions don't exist and never will in Nevada.

Lawman007

07-25-2006, 08:06 PM

52s

07-25-2006, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just the ME.
4 starting days.
Say each dealer deals the first down on 3 of those days and starts on break on the 4th.
10 players at the table. Harrah's has "earmarked" $150 of the $600 they take out from each player for the dealers. Imagine the dealer getting the money right then.
$1500 for the table.
$4500 for the three tables.
Plus "wages".
Before any player "tips".
Two weeks work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close to that simple.

For example, one set of dealers start their shift at 11, tourney starts at 12... then next shift of dealers come in at 7, with tourney still going.

And with the WSOP the days will go until 1am-ish.

The major problem is that whoever the head of dealers is, the DC, or whatever you want to call him, must be a corporate ninny and willing to let the dealers get f'd to line his own pockets as well.

It's a huge mess.

psandman

07-25-2006, 10:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It makes no sense to me that you pay the dealers less in the tournament you like better, that gave you more play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This bothers me. On the one hand, you argue for tipping a percentage of your winnings because it is the most equitable way of tipping. But when that percentage works against you, then you are advocating that we break free from this percentage idea and just start tipping based on level of service received.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did I say that tipping by a set percentage is the most equitable way of tipping?

You are probably confusing me with another poster.

psandman

07-25-2006, 10:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The size of the prize pool is much larger at the CP tourney. Don't distort to facts here.

Winner gets 4-6K at CP tourney, and pays 10 spots. Compare with Orleans, MGM, Luxor, Golden Nugget, etc., with the same buy-in range......not even close.

I bet the hand-in is better at CP....why...the service and tournament structure is better.

[/ QUOTE ]

A bigger prize caused by more entries results in more dealer hours. Go ask a CP dealer about the tokes they make for that tournament. Everye I have asked, the dealers toke per down was less (slightly more than half) than what i make in low buy in tournies and what the other dealers I know all tell me they average in low buy-in tourneys.

psandman

07-25-2006, 10:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just the ME.
4 starting days.
Say each dealer deals the first down on 3 of those days and starts on break on the 4th.
10 players at the table. Harrah's has "earmarked" $150 of the $600 they take out from each player for the dealers. Imagine the dealer getting the money right then.
$1500 for the table.
$4500 for the three tables.
Plus "wages".
Before any player "tips".
Two weeks work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow you. I have no idea what you are saying, but I can't come up $4,500 per dealer no what what calculations I do. If I make $4,500 in tokes over the course of the Main Event I will be ecstatic.

I think what you are doing is assuming far fewer dealers than actually are required over the next two weeks.

psandman

07-25-2006, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The thing that bothers me about all this is that no one ever tells the players exactly how much dealers are making. We are the ones paying them when we tip, and I think we have a right to know. Why should it be a secret? If the information was available it would solve a lot of problems.

--Last year a dealer complained to a local newspaper reporter that the winners stiffed them in the ME, and implicated that all they made is minimum wage. She neglected to mention that over $1,000,000 was withheld from the prize pool for tips. Hachem might have gotten 8 million for first instead of 7.5, so Joe may have already tipped $500,000. How much did they make in tips per down? That is the real question, and I’ve never heard an answer.

--The reason that the above point is relevant is because many dealers tend to complain no matter how much they make. A case in point: I came in second in a WPT event and got 327k. I asked if 3% was withheld for the dealers and was told it was, so I didn’t tip more. If it hadn’t been withheld I would have tipped 10k, which I think is a pretty good tip. Since that’s about what was already taken for them, I figured everything was cool, and that it would be appreciated. The next day as I was leaving some of the final table dealers walked by me. I wanted to say goodbye and thank them, but they gave me a very cold shoulder. I was pissed. When I got home I called the TD. I wanted to make sure the dealers were well compensated. If not, I would consider leaving more. I was told that for the last super satellites, the last event before the ME and the ME, the dealers made about $70/hr plus their salary. I’m sorry, but there are a lot of highly trained, educated and skilled people who don’t make close to that. If $70/hr isn’t sufficient, I suggest they explore the job market and see what they find.

Enough secrecy dealers. How much are we paying you? Why should jt be a secret? We’re the
ones paying you. Once this information is available, more intelligent arguments can be made.

In my opinion, the forced tipping policy, which is a fairly recent innovation, has caused a lot of
problems and resentments between players and dealers. When it first was instituted, I knew it was
only a matter of time until it wouldn’t be considered a tip, and that more would be expected on top
of it. That happened rather quickly.

The bottom line is that the players are being looked to as a solution for the dealers’ pay problems.
We have our own problems, which are another topic. At this point, as players our options are to
either accept the situation or not play. Hopefully, through a united front, such as the WPA, we can
get some things accomplished. For dealers the situation is similar. If you don’t like it, either don’t
work there, or work together to improve things. But, don’t look to the people who pay for
everything, and without whom there would be no WSOP, for the solution Instead, look to the
organization that stands to make 100 million or so from the WSOP. I understand that you may feel
like you’re being screwed, but we’re being screwed too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am sorry that you think my personal finances should be a matter of public record. I'm not arguing you should tip me because I'm not making enough. I'm simply saying that if the players choose not to tip, and the result is that better dealers can make more money dealing elsewhere, you should reasonably believe that they will choose to work elsewhere. So if you want the best dealers to seek the WSOP jobs, then the way to do that is take sure those positions are pay better than dealing at "Joe's casino and Poker Room". Now if that is done by getting Harrah's to kick in money thats fine with me. But right now on an hourly basis this job is not paying mor ethan I can make dealing elsewhere and I am treated much better elsewhere (the players have not mistreated me at all . . . I'm talking about mistreatment Harrah's)

psandman

07-25-2006, 10:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing that bothers me about all this is that no one ever tells the players exactly how much dealers are making. We are the ones paying them when we tip, and I think we have a right to know. Why should it be a secret? If the information was available it would solve a lot of problems.

Enough secrecy dealers. How much are we paying you? Why should jt be a secret? We’re the
ones paying you. Once this information is available, more intelligent arguments can be made.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. This one dealer posting in this thread, Psandman, whines about tips, then refuses to say how much the dealers make from the forced tips taken out of the prize pool. Put up or shut up, dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT THE F? Where am I whining about tips?

psandman

07-25-2006, 10:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would just like to know from the dealers who are complaining that they are not making enough is how much is not enough?

[/ QUOTE ]
I wish I could answer that question for you. But, look at table games dealers in virtually all casinos. They always say it's not enough. I think that's just human nature to want more no matter what.

I assume you do realize that part of the forced tip is going to supervisors and quite possibly higher management. It's never going to happen that you'll get a straight or accurate answer from anyone regarding this matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually this year at the WSOP none of it is supposed to be going to anyone but dealers (except hand-in tips which are shared with cashiers/chip runners/board ops/timeclerks)

Any player at the WSOP who asks me has been told. I just choose not to broadcast it on a public forum. People at the event who ask are being told the percentage.

psandman

07-25-2006, 10:38 PM

I went in today and confed that I was in fact correct the percentage for events other than the $10k and higher events is in fact less than the 2.5% reported here. I don't know if he misspoke, was misheard, lied, or changed his mind and reduced the percentage later.

Lawman007

07-26-2006, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I went in today and confed that I was in fact correct the percentage for events other than the $10k and higher events is in fact less than the 2.5% reported here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, right. LOL If you want us to believe you, then tell us what the percentage is. Otherwise, save your breath. You have no credibility here.

Lawman007

07-26-2006, 12:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But right now on an hourly basis this job is not paying mor ethan I can make dealing elsewhere and I am treated much better elsewhere (the players have not mistreated me at all . . . I'm talking about mistreatment Harrah's)

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you're crazy to keep working there. Go get another job.

THAY3R

07-26-2006, 01:00 AM

To sum this thread up....

wah wah wah wah I hate my job the people who are the reason I even have a job should give me more money and not the people who profit greatly off of my job.

Lawman007

07-26-2006, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
To sum this thread up....

wah wah wah wah I hate my job the people who are the reason I even have a job should give me more money and not the people who profit greatly off of my job.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh, sir LOL

52s

07-26-2006, 02:54 AM

Then good grief, just let us know what the damn percentage is - it was publically known until this year, then Gary Thompson said on the record one set of percentages, which you are saying is wrong, and you're saying people can find out by going to the Rio and asking anyone.

As a rep of the Rio, which you are right now, we're asking YOU.

Seriously, I'm about to take a trip down there and find out myself and splatter it all over the place, your schtick has gotten tiresome.

Photoc

07-26-2006, 04:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Seriously, I'm about to take a trip down there and find out myself and splatter it all over the place,this thread has gotten tiresome.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP and it's oh so true. This turned into nothing but a name calling flame war like EVERY OTHER [censored] TIPPING Thread that has ever hit 2+2. But of course, we have 20 guys here that have to get the last word in one way or another with their side.

Let me spell it out for you:

Tip what you want or don't tip, the choice is yours and only yours

Jooka

07-26-2006, 04:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Tip what you want or don't tip, the choice is yours and only yours

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what doesnt need to happen. players are people to and maybe it does turn to a flame war because Harrah's wants this to be between the dealers and the players, instead of the otherway around. If Harrahs sets up the illusion that players have already made the tip, who should the dealers be pissed at when it doesnt happen that way? the players who thought they already tipped or upper management who screwed the dealers? if you're a dealer reading this thread get your [censored] straight. Harrahs makes the players feel like they have already tipped you before the event has even started. you got [censored] to settle it isnt with the players.

tourney guy

07-26-2006, 02:33 PM

Blair - Most of what you say is accurate.

1) If players don't like the why HET treats them (who would), they can choose not to play. Problem is, and both you and I know this, that the internet player currently populates the WSOP in large part. So your voice as a pro is meaningless. The internet qualifier who won his seat for $40 could not care less about the outrageous juice HEt charges, so what is the difference if a few pros decide to sit out???

Blair, did you boycott the WSOP?? Of course not, because the prizes are huge, as is the prestige of the WSOP bracelet.

The pro, who has had to gring it out for 20+ years in Vegas gets the shaft, but no one is willing to sit out to "show Harrahs how bad they are". I feel bad about it, but what can you do. Either sit it out or don't sit it out. The pro players are in a bad spot here, because they don't injure HEt, and being a martyr doesn't pay the bills.

2) Dealers complaining about money at last years WSOP is a total %&cking joke. They made $2500 for dealing 40 hours in the week-long ME, and every one knows it. What is that....$62.50/hour or so.

Blair, this year, the problem is that HET did not explicitly describe what the PC going to the dealers was. In 05, the sheets for the $1500 N/L event read "6% to the house, 3% to the staff"
In 06, all it says is '9% withheld from prize pool'.

Blair, since HET collects the buy-in, and distributes all funds to the players and dealers, it is not the dealers who should publish and disemminate what they make, it is HET.

Why would HET make a change in literature regarding what is being withheld SPECIFICALLY for the dealers????

I submit it is because they don't want you, or anyone else to know what the dealers are making.

Rest assured HET has shafted the dealers by not telling them upfront what they are making. In a de facto manner, they are screwing you because they have not told you what you are paying the dealers.

This may be the only error in your otherwise dead-on analysis. The money being taken from YOUR prize pool and given to the dealers is at a rate that is not known to anyone, not the least of all, you.

You are entitled to know exactly where your money is going, and how it is being broken down, and, as of today, no one has seen it.

Someone should take action (Labor Board, et. al.) to make HET say exactly how the money is being allocated.

'9% withheld' is incomplete, and it is embaressing that this type of action is allowed.

As for the whining dealers - they should walk out in large numbers. If they don't like the conditions, like the players, they can leave at any time.

The fact is they don't, and that should tell you something.

PS - HET will not make anything remotely close to 100 million.....not sure how you figure that, but their margin is way less than you think.

uclabruinz

07-26-2006, 04:29 PM

I have given this some thought, and bottom line for me is that forced gratuity means no additional tip from me, and that includes if I win the ME.

Blair Rodman

07-26-2006, 04:34 PM

In a nutshell, my position is this

HARRAH'S IS SCREWING ALL OF US.

To take it a small step further, as either a player or employee, at this point our options are to either accept the way it is, or walk away. Players are trying to gain a unified voice through the WPA. Dealers, if they are truly unhappy, should attempt to do something similar. What they shouldn't do is look to the players and expect more money. The tip that is withheld is fair. We've done our part.

sheetsworld

07-26-2006, 06:27 PM

Man, the never ending quest for every last morsel of ev leads to the funniest threads.

Dealers sit in a chair, dealing cards, managing pots, handling some of the most emotionally charged collection of degenerates known to man. They sit in the cross currents of sneezing and coughing and the transmission of countless diseases, through cards, chips, and the air, and they cannot get up to take a walk until scheduled breaks. They are called all but the worst names in the world, usually because someone lost AK VS 66. They are in that tpye of profession where they are only noticed if they perform poorly, a very tough place to be. They are constantly in the throws of anger, frustration, and general stress at the tables.

Whether they get paid 2 cents an hour or 5 million a year does not make their job any less thankless, and throwing the dealers some money after you cash for something shouldnt be thought of as such a "chore". Trust me, the paycheck does not change how they are beaten up all day by the p;ayers, and some extra appreciation, not by harrahs, but by the players themselves, really means something I think.

They are people who are in a service business and throwing them a few bucks shows your appreciation. To me it doesnt matter what is being taken out...it is simply different if it comes from you. Similarly, often times in hotels they will add 15% to a restaurant bill as a gratuiity, but you know what?...if they do a good job people can still htrow themn a few extra dollars, because you know what, serving other people is not easy...and they appreciate the occasional...ummm...appreciation.

Granted no one should feel obligated to do anythign but sheeeesh, are you really not gonna give a few bucks to the dealers if you win the main event?

meh

sheets

birdytime

07-28-2006, 01:13 AM

I say tip the dealer

growlers

07-28-2006, 05:50 AM

I went to a restaurant tonight with 8 people and ordered a bunch of food and the total bill came to $1756 but it was not itemized in any way. They told me that a tip was added already.
I asked, "what percentage because the server did a great job so I want to know if I should leave more?" "Is it 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, or 30%?"
They said "we can't tell you that."

What's my play here?

I know some people in my party thought I should have just left more regardless since the server did a great job, but since I thought they might have already taken 30% - it seemed excessive. I wish they would have just answered the question, so I could make sure I compensated him well instead of just guessing and feeling conflicted either way.

disgrntleddealer

07-30-2006, 01:43 PM

What the dealers get out of the buy-in really has nothing to do with your tip. Of course the dealers are getting a percentage, (DEFINITELY UNDER 3%), because there is no guarentee that the ME winner would tip anything at all. And the percentage is not a "forced tip". Do you actually think that dealers are going to spend 2 weeks of 9-10-11-12 hour days dealing hoping by the end the winner will tip well and if they didnt they wouldnt get a dime?! Your crazy.

And think about this. 10,000 players times $10,000 buy in. Thats 100,000,000. The dealer percentage is 1.5%. So thats 1.5 million. That number divided by 2 weeks, divided by 600 dealers. Comes to $2400....$1200/week......$17/hour. Do you understand how [censored] that is? Do you know how much a normal dealer in any poker room around Vegas averages? The WSOP dealers are lucky if they can make as much as the average casino poker dealer and they are working twice as hard, less breaks, more stress, etc. So you want to bitch about how if you win the ME and make $10 mil and wont drop the dealers a decent percentage, then your whole "im usually a very good tipper" is a joke. The WSOP is supposed to be the most prestigious poker tournament in the world, obviously it doesnt bring around the most prestigious poker players. When I play anywhere, I dont care how bad the dealer messed up or anything, they get the standard tip. But the dealers who do well get thrown a lot more than $1.00 when I rake in a thousand dollar pot. And Im sure this is going to come up after I post this, but if you want to make it a point to say that the quality of dealers is poor, then all I have to say is that it is because of people like you that all the good dealers wont deal this silly ass tournament because the money isnt there. If the paychecks were anywhere near above normal, then I would feel that anyone has the right to question the quality of the dealers, but they are working for nickel and dimes, [censored] hours, and clueless supervisors (not all of them, but most of them). If it werent for dealers, there would not be any professional poker players because they uphold the integrity of the game. So if you want to bite the hand that feeds you, be my guest......but dont expect anything to ever change if this is the way you feel.

Eder

07-30-2006, 06:13 PM

I dont really think a dealer is worth the same rate of pay as say a plumber etc...even the fry cook at McDonalds go thru a certain amount of training.

That being said I do tip dealers the standard when I drag a pot... but $17/hour tip average for dealing the ME imo is more than enough.

psandman

07-30-2006, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont really think a dealer is worth the same rate of pay as say a plumber etc...even the fry cook at McDonalds go thru a certain amount of training.

That being said I do tip dealers the standard when I drag a pot... but $17/hour tip average for dealing the ME imo is more than enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not agreeing with disgruntled's figures. But I would like to ask you this question. If a good dealer can make more money dealing at their local cardroom, where are you goping to get your dealers for the WSOP?

Keep in mind as well that when dealers travel to Vegas to deal this event they have to pay for their transportation and lodgings, they receive zero benefits. They would have to be out of their minds to come to deal the WSOP for less money they can make at home where they also get a more regular schedule and probably have to put up with a lot less [censored].

Eder

07-30-2006, 06:50 PM

I remember the MLB umpire strike...took all of 0 days to replace them...

Jimbo

07-30-2006, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But I would like to ask you this question. If a good dealer can make more money dealing at their local cardroom, where are you goping to get your dealers for the WSOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the same reason they are doing it this year. Why are you dealing the WSOP if you could have made more at your regular dealing gig? Please don't say you didn't know. A dealer makes this post every year about being underpaid for the WSOP so that particular opnion is not a secret.

Jimbo

pig4bill

07-30-2006, 08:24 PM

So why is it the players' responsibility to make sure the dealers are paid well enough? Bitch at your employers, not the customers.

renodoc

07-31-2006, 03:47 AM

FWIW, I asked several of the dealers tonight what they were getting out of the main event pool. The answer I heard the most was 1% of the entry fees. That would be 5% to the house then.

sketchy1

07-31-2006, 04:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So why is it the players' responsibility to make sure the dealers are paid well enough? Bitch at your employers, not the customers.

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't get it at all bro. not one bit.

if you really think these companies care about taking care of their employees, you're wrong. of course they bitch at the companies. you're retarded if you don't think that dealers complain to the casinos.

pig4bill

07-31-2006, 05:59 AM

No chief, being retarded is to continue to work at a place for far less than what you can make just across the street doing the same job, then complaining at your customers about it.

disgrntleddealer

07-31-2006, 08:34 AM

You still dont understand at all. First of all, it is 1.5% not 3%.....thats a big difference. Second of all, your talking like the percentage is a tip....no.....its basically a guarenteed wage for retards like you that will stiff the dealers because you think that they are making soooo much money. That percentage is split between 600 dealers depending on how much they work for 2 weeks......its pretty pathetic. And your saying why would they leave their normal jobs if the money isnt there, well because last year dealers made anywhere from 10k to 20k depending on how much they worked, and obviously if they were good dealers they were tipped well in the cash games. But all that changed. Harrahs pulls tips and divides them, so even though a dealer may make 200+ a night in tips, they arent taking them home. Harrahs isnt going to give the dealers anymore money than they have to. It is up to the players to keep this tournament one of the best in the world because when all the experienced dealers from this year dont come back next year, your going to see a lot of "just graduated" dealers who have no idea what its like to deal a $400/$800 mixed game.

disgrntleddealer

07-31-2006, 08:54 AM

Your an idiot if you believe that dealers made $70.00/hour. For everyone out there, im gettin pissed off about this whole thing. But this is the last thing that im going to say about this: Tip or dont tip....but next year when you come to play these tournaments at the WSOP and you have a monkey in the box dont complain, thats the service you earned.

AngusThermopyle

07-31-2006, 11:42 AM

Simple way to settle the "how much do the dealers make" question.
Publish the info.
Harrahs says one thing. You say another. Players assume another.
1. Publish the pay for a dealer who worked the entire Event.
2. Publish the take-out breakdown dealers, staff, Harrahs, etc share. So we really see if it is 3% or 1%
3. Publish how much a $100K tip would go to each dealer.

Oh. One more thing.
I haven't seen how much the 2+2er have been tipping from their prizes.

riverdance

08-01-2006, 12:24 PM

August 01, 2006
LOOKING IN ON: GAMING

Dealers: A raw deal at World Series
By Liz Benston
Las Vegas Sun

The 37th annual World Series of Poker kicked off its main event Friday at the Rio to the richest prize pool in history - more than $75 million, with a top prize of $10.8 million.

Why, then, the long faces among the poker dealers when the first events began a few weeks ago?

For the first time, Harrah's Entertainment this year began giving dealers a weekly paycheck, with taxes withheld. Last year dealers received an envelope of cash, which included their base salary and tips based on the prize money - for the previous day's work.

Dealers complained about the lower-than-expected, after-taxes paychecks, but have now adjusted.

Another change involves how dealers track their workday. Harrah's began this year's tournament paying dealers based on hours worked. But dealers complained about lazy co-workers who would sign in but not actually deal any games, tournament executive Gary Thompson said.

Harrah's has since adopted a system of paying dealers based on how many times they sit down to deal a game. (Each "down," between breaks, is at least an hour.)

For the first 18 days of the tournament, dealers averaged a bit more than $30 per hour. For the main event, dealers will make a base salary of $5.25 per hour plus tips, which will add up to 1.5 percent of the prize pool, up from 1.4 percent last year.

Blair Rodman

08-01-2006, 02:39 PM

Unless I was lied to by the tournament director, who, as far as I can see, would have no reason to lie, dealers in the instance I mentioned did make $70/hr. And why would that be so hard to believe? That was at a place where all the withheld money went to the dealers. At the WSOP, where all these supposed abuses are going on, they are still making $30/hr. And, as far as I can tell from the conversations I had with dealers, the main reason all tips are pooled this year is because dealers were complaining that they weren’t making enough in side games last year.

You’re implying that things were so much better last year, yet I heard all kinds of grumbling last year from dealers. In fact, one of them ran to the local columnist and complained that they got stiffed in the main event, implying that all they made was minimum wage. She neglected to mention that they withheld over a million dollars from the prize pool for tips.

In the old days at the WSOP, dealers made upwards of $200 a down dealing the final. Those were also the days when players were treated as something special and were coddled and respected by Binions. Those days are over for all of us.

I’ve been around this business for a long time, have known a lot of dealers, and dealt casino games myself a long time ago. One thing I know is that most dealers will complain no matter how much they make. That’s why I want to know what the numbers are before shedding any sympathy for the plight of dealers. $30/hr is pretty good. That is way more than most people make in this country. When I started dealing I was lucky to get $20 in my envelope. And it is sure to go up for the final.

If experienced dealers can make more dealing other places, they should pass on the WSOP, or take their complaints to management. One thing about new dealers, they are happy to be there.

Oh, and most players seem to be able to make their arguments without calling people idiots and retards.

Jimbo

08-01-2006, 09:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tip or dont tip....but next year when you come to play these tournaments at the WSOP and you have a monkey in the box dont complain, thats the service you earned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since a monkey wouldn't be able to come to this forum and cry about being underpaid, undertipped and overworked I'd tend to tip a monkey more.

Jimbo

52s

08-02-2006, 03:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And, as far as I can tell from the conversations I had with dealers, the main reason all tips are pooled this year is because dealers were complaining that they weren’t making enough in side games last year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then those dealers should've been told to STFU.

They should know that it's "luck of the draw" when it comes to table assignments for the day in these tourneys.

That, or they needed a more competent DC.

[ QUOTE ]
$30/hr is pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, for a major tournament of this magnitude, that's way below average. The dealer payout for the WPT Mandalay Bay event came out to more than this and that was considered on the very low-end by regular circuit dealers I talked to. The $$$ that was made at the Bellagio WPT Championship this year puts $30/hr to shame. It's why dealers leave their homes for 6-7 weeks to come to Vegas for the WSOP; these things, on the normal, paid huge. Now they aren't, and everyone's pissy.

Foucault

08-02-2006, 05:08 AM

1.5% is the most recent number I've heard for what the dealers are making. A gentleman I trust implied that he thought an additional 1% (somewhat less if you win a huge prize) would be appropriate from winners. I hope that's helpful to those, like me, who were looking for a bottom line.

bav

08-12-2006, 04:29 AM

From http://www.pokerblog.com/remember-the-dealers.html
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So I had a conversation with some dealers a few minutes ago -- I'm guessing I won't be the first one to report that the World Series is over -- and they were all clearly hoping Jamie Gold would win. Why?

Because he reportedly promised to tip $1 million if he won. (He did. Win that is. Tip still pending.) To the dealers, that meant about an extra $2,000 each.

...
Also talked with a floorman exec type. He told me that even with Jamie Gold's $1 million tip, the dealers will leave the WSOP having made 30 percent of what they made last year.

"I'm not sure what else I can say," he said. "But those are the real numbers."

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30%? How is that possible? I could believe 30% less. But 70% less?

52s

08-12-2006, 05:53 AM

Another item, this from Tao of Poker (under Thursday, August 10th):

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1:27am... Disgruntled Supervisors: I got an email from someone claiming to be a "disgruntled Harrah's supervisor." They spilled the beans on the behind the scenes action. Here it is:
Dear Pauly,

Interesting to note as I read the various blogs about unhappy dealers that the floor staff or "suits" are never mentioned.

Things you may not know:

1) All the suits were paid an hourly wage varying from $25 to $37.50 depending on your level of responsibility.

2) We were NOT ALLOWED to accept personal tokes. Any tokes given to us had to be put in the DEALERS toke pool. Between myself and one other supervisor, we dropped over $12,000 (12K) in the dealer toke pool.

3) The suits are NOT part of the toke pool. Rio officials justified the exclusion from the toke pool by saying "there will be as much overtime as you want to work". Then after the series started mandated days off and less or no overtime depending on your level of responsibility.

4) I verified that the expected down rate (or 1/2 hour period) is currently around $33 per down or $66 per hour. Add the $5.25 wage and and they are up to $71.25 per hour for Main Event hours. The average down rate previous varied from $13 to $25 or $26 to $50 per hour.

We knew what we were getting into or so we thought. But I think it is important to get facts out if they are to be talked about. Of the 5 MILLION that Rio got from the Main Event 1.25% (as I understand) goes to the DEALERS and DEALERS only. Any side tokes will go 100% to the dealers.

It is rumored that a final table player has promised a large toke to the dealers and floor staff if he were to win. While I hope that he does in fact win and the dealers benefit, I also hope he is either assured in writing that a toke will be distributed to floor staff if he desires or leaves none at all for that part of the team.

I do not begrudge the dealers the money they have earned during the WSOP, for I have worked my way up through the box and into a position of responsibility, and knew what I was going into, for this was not my first WSOP. I only wanted facts to be facts if they were out there.

sign me....

A suit

P.S. I would like to add that we were aware of weak links in the team, and although I was not in a position to make personnel changes, those of us that knew what we were doing tried to make the WSOP experience as pleasant as possible. Many improvements need to be made for next year, in many areas.
Thanks for the email. I wanted to give a perspective from one of the suits at the WSOP. Hope this helps.

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http://taopoker.blogspot.com/

wickedman

08-12-2006, 09:24 AM

Wow thats pretty sucky.

StrayBullet

08-12-2006, 09:48 AM

What's their hourly rate before tips?

Are they paid like a "wait staff" ie, below minimum wage?

psandman

08-12-2006, 10:14 AM

based upon my discussions with other dealers the figure the is more like 50%-60% of what they made last year.

MrBrightside

08-12-2006, 10:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I went to a restaurant tonight with 8 people and ordered a bunch of food and the total bill came to $1756 ....

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holy fark! that's more than $200 a person... for a meal? wow.

bestcellar

08-12-2006, 05:18 PM

look, the bottom line is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. For both the players, and the for the dealers. The players are told in no uncertain terms that a portion of these winnings goes to pay dealers for the event.

What do the dealers have to hide in terms of the economics of this? I spoke to several people knowledgeable about the WSOP this year and by all reports, the dealers who sign up are worked like dogs but clear a substantial amount of money FOR working like dogs. Aside from tips.

If it really is true that the dealers are relying substantially on tips for their income, as food servers who make $3.50 an hour or whatever it is are, then what is there to hide about this? Poker players made be ruthless, but they are not cold-hearted. If they found out Harrah's was screwing the dealers in terms of wages they would rally to get behind them.

What was there, 90,000,000 in the ME prize pool this year? Simple question: how many hours did each dealer work at the main event and how many dealers were working.

bestcellar

08-12-2006, 05:23 PM

and I don't care how it measures up with other "major events", $30 an hour is a lot of [censored] money.

BaldEaglePkr

08-12-2006, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]

4) I verified that the expected down rate (or 1/2 hour period) is currently around $33 per down or $66 per hour. Add the $5.25 wage and and they are up to $71.25 per hour for Main Event hours. The average down rate previous varied from $13 to $25 or $26 to $50 per hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

One minor correction here... IF a dealer worked 2 downs every hour he was there he would make the 35x2=70 dollar rate. But there are a lot of breaks and forced Early outs that bring it down to around 10 downs a day on average which is $350 + $5.25 an hour. It is hardly a horrible living wage... it is however not a rate worth travelling thousands of miles for, with no reimbursement of expenses. Especially since the good dealers work in a room where they can make that much on a daily basis.

PS: It is still MUCH better than the floor staff did. Those guys were royally screwed.

Dangeresque

08-12-2006, 10:51 PM

I worked at a gas station for a time, I almost never received tips, which was fine, I budgeted based on my wage, which was significantly more than minimum wage. What is it about bringing the food from the kitchen that suddenly makes the price of food, or any other service, suddenly unincludable in the initial price?

That said, the reason that a lot of dealers still deal the WSOP is that it's the World Series of Poker, and they've got a front row seat. I'd have to pay $10,000 to see Phil Hellmuth have a temper tantrum as a player. As a dealer, they would pay me.

And yes, I'm the first to try to shut up the grousing morons who blame dealers for properly randomising a deck of cards and then dealing them a beat. It's the [carebears] game. This sort of sneering contempt for players along with the higher rake caps casinos charge drive people online. I sit at a 3-6 table that easily rakes $100 an hour (rake capped at $5) and to hear that a dealer cannot be paid a living wage from that sum is similtaneously ludicrous and infuriating.

One of the casinos in Edmonton had a dealer's association that was going to vote on an offered contract. I made it a point to tell every dealer that I would NEVER cross their picket lines. But I'm the customer, I'm not the employer, please stop treating me as such.