AKo - TPTK

[swolfe]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 ($712.80)
CO ($367)
Hero ($394)
SB ($392)
BB ($337.15)
UTG ($581)
UTG+1 ($400.50)
UTG+2 ($429.60)
MP1 ($330)
MP2 ($396)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP1 calls $4, MP2 calls $4, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $22</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $18.

Flop: ($54) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $50</font>, MP2 calls $50.

Turn: ($154) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($154) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $125</font>

[ZootMurph]

Looks good to me.

Turn check behind cuts off any possible check raise with A9 or a set. Check on the river after you checked behind on the turn is either an intricate attempt to induce a bet or the usual sign of weakness. Easy bet on the river. Although, depending on read of MP2, a smaller bet may be necessary. If a player has a tendency to fold to a big bet on the river, I may bet 1/3 - 1/2 the pot hoping to get the call. 3/4 of the pot may be too much to call for some players.

[elus2]

feels like river bet is a bit high. how often do you check the turn to control the pot against our villain?

[ZootMurph]

The turn check behind isn't to control the pot, it's to induce a call on the river with 2nd best hand. If Hero bets the turn, Villain may fold. However, if Hero checks behind, then it shows weakness and there is a much better chance of Villain calling with AT, AJ, or even a pocket pair.

And the river bet is only 3/4 of the pot. Perfect size to look like Hero is trying to steal the pot with a weak hand. Although, like I said, depending on the Villain this bet may need to be smaller to get a call from a weak ace.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
feels like river bet is a bit high. how often do you check the turn to control the pot against our villain?

[/ QUOTE ]

often, when called on a (almost entirely) drawless board with a hand that i want to showdown. i'd have called any river bet from villain.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Looks pretty good. You have to figure you're getting looked up by a weaker ace here a lot of the time. The river bet amount is pretty opponent dependent, IMO. I don't think I would want to go below $125 since I doubt people really fold an ace here for $125 too often, but I might go higher. Maybe considerably higher.

[elus2]

controlling pot size is correlated to how far villain can continue in the hand. by keeping the pot manageable hero is able to extract more value versus villain on future streets.

[elus2]

how often do you push river? 1 in every 5 times?

[Go_Blue88]

i only read the orignal post, but i like your line a lot. nice hand.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I push every time against a guy who is
a)too stupid to think about c/r the turn
or
b)too stupid to check the river when he misses c/r on turn
and
c)known for heroic calls/marriage to TPWK

Against normal opponents, I pot the river or close to it.

[ajmargarine]

Boys, this is Pokah playin'.

My default here is 3/4 pot on the flop, 2/3 turn, 1/2 river. Pretty ABC stuff and it works, and AQ or AJ may call you all the way down, la-de-dah. But this line protects Hero in case villian has more than one pair (no c/r op on the turn, and he can't lead too crazy on the river), and may induce a river call from alot more than just Ax hands, plus you extract about the same amount of money from villian. nh. Well played sir.

[vulturesrow]

Swolfes line is pretty standard WA/WB play in my mind.

[ajmargarine]

Yeah, well..... /images/graemlins/smile.gif One of the problems with my ABC TAG play is that I always think that I am WA, and never WB. This hand just kind of clicked with me for some reason and I almost wet my pants.

[FreakDaddy]

Standard poker. Although the greedy side of me may push this river against a weak-tight player hoping that he has AK too, fears AA, and lays down his hand. You of course more than likely lose AQ here though... but that's just the greed in me. Good line. I'm guessing you didn't have a question, just wanted to show a standard TPTK line?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Whoa. I think there is very very little chance of losing AK or AQ here no matter what you do. Although I haven't played the NL400 and could be wrong. At the NL200 though no one is folding either hand here. And against some players you will get a call from bottom pair if you push this river.

[NYCNative]

I bet the turn myself and if I get smooth-called again check down the river.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the turn myself and if I get smooth-called again check down the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's your plan if he check-raises the turn?

what's your plan if he smooth calls turn and pushes the river?

RESULTS: he called with ATo and MHIG. he probably would have folded to a bet on the turn, but i think that my check-behind convinced him that i had JJ-KK or something and that his ace was probably good.

[TheWorstPlayer]

What's your feeling about overbetting in here in this game? My general thinking is that somone who will call 125 will call 200 and may even be more likely to call 200 than 125. What is your experience in the 400?

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your feeling about overbetting in here in this game? My general thinking is that somone who will call 125 will call 200 and may even be more likely to call 200 than 125. What is your experience in the 400?

[/ QUOTE ]

to be honest, i almost never overbet the pot. occassionally i'll make an all-in bet that's a slight overbet because i don't want to leave myself with only a couple bucks, but if i (and my opponent) have significant money left, i'll make a PSB or less.

FWIW, i try to play pot limit as much as possible.

[punter11235]

Well played sir. I love this line it never fails...

[AceHiStation]

People struggling with pot-control really need to learn this line. Perfectly played IMO. This will prevent you from getting stacked significantly.

[punter11235]

[ QUOTE ]
Swolfes line is pretty standard WA/WB play in my mind.




[/ QUOTE ]

Could you pls explain to me what WA/WB mean ? I am not new to this forum but I dont know , really /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks in advance

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I bet the turn myself and if I get smooth-called again check down the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

what's your plan if he check-raises the turn?

what's your plan if he smooth calls turn and pushes the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to hear the right answer to these questions, and I have another question of my own. How does our line change if the 7/images/graemlins/club.gif were actually a 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif?

Now here's my answer to your questions: I try to fold in both cases. Pot odds might tell me to stay, however. If I'm getting better than about 1:4, I'd feel like I had to stay.

Now, what's the right answer?
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Grunch]

WA/WB = way-ahead or way-behind. It means that we think that we are either going to win the pot almost all the time or lose the pot almost all the time, but we're not sure which, and it could go either way. The chance of us being WA are about the same as us being WB.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you pls explain to me what WA/WB mean ? I am not new to this forum but I dont know , really /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks in advance

[/ QUOTE ]

Way Ahead/Way Behind. basically i'm way ahead of a one pair hand, and way behind anything else. there are no significant draws that i'm only slightly ahead of...except the unlikely T8 or 86.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
How does our line change if the 7/images/graemlins/club.gif were actually a 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd bet. it becomes a lot more likely that he has a heart draw and i'm no longer way ahead/way behind, i'm slightly ahead/way behind. in the case where i bet the turn, i'm likely to check-behind the river.

EDIT: i just noticed that the heart draw hit the turn. in that case, i'd, again, check behind the turn and call a river bet.


[ QUOTE ]
Now here's my answer to your questions: I try to fold in both cases. Pot odds might tell me to stay, however. If I'm getting better than about 1:4, I'd feel like I had to stay.

Now, what's the right answer? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

honestly, i don't know, which is why i check the turn. betting the turn could lead to a morton's fork where i don't like any of my choices and it becomes a very difficult and read based decision.

checking the turn lets me play bindless poker. the plan is easy: call any river bet, value bet if checked to.

[Grunch]

[ QUOTE ]
checking the turn lets me play bindless poker. the plan is easy: call any river bet, value bet if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Call even a push? Even if the river bricked, and we didn't improve?

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
checking the turn lets me play bindless poker. the plan is easy: call any river bet, value bet if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Call even a push? Even if the river bricked, and we didn't improve?

[/ QUOTE ]

when you check to induce a bluff, you must call.

[Grunch]

Why are we trying to induce a bluff if we think there's as much chance of us being WB as being WA here? Won't the bet we induced be a value bet from a better hand as often as it will be a bluff?

Sorry if I'm just not getting it. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[TheWorstPlayer]

The idea is that he is likely to make the bet on the river that we were thinking of making on the turn. But if we bet the turn, then he is only going to call with a better hand and fold a worse one. But if we check the turn and he bets the river, we will lose the same if he has a better hand but some of the time he will bluff the river so we will make more over betting the turn and having him fold. The only times we are going to be upset when we check the turn are when he outdraws us on the river but would have folded the turn. But since it is WA/WB we don't worry about that scenario.

[Grunch]

I see. So in the cases where we are WB and were destined to get stacked (which was the case I was concerned about), we get stacked just the same. But in cases where we are WA, we just might stack the other guy in a few instances where we would not if we had not induced.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
I see. So in the cases where we are WB and were destined to get stacked (which was the case I was concerned about), we get stacked just the same. But in cases where we are WA, we just might stack the other guy in a few instances where we would not if we had not induced.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, exactly. it widens the range of hands that opponent will bet with to include as many hands that we're beating as are beating us.

take a look at the JJ hand that i posted last night. my play was pretty much exactly the same in that hand as this one, but in that case, the guy bet his (most likely) weak ace on the river.

[Grunch]

But in that case, it was far more likely that you were WB. So there you weren't checking the turn becasue you were trying to induce -- you were checking the turn because you were done with the hand, right?

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
But in that case, it was far more likely that you were WB. So there you weren't checking the turn becasue you were trying to induce -- you were checking the turn because you were done with the hand, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

heh, yes...just wanted to demonstrate how the line could have gotten another bet had i actually had AK.

[Grunch]

Gotcha. Alrighty, I'm on my way...

[Mik1w]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea is that he is likely to make the bet on the river that we were thinking of making on the turn. But if we bet the turn, then he is only going to call with a better hand and fold a worse one. But if we check the turn and he bets the river, we will lose the same if he has a better hand but some of the time he will bluff the river so we will make more over betting the turn and having him fold. The only times we are going to be upset when we check the turn are when he outdraws us on the river but would have folded the turn. But since it is WA/WB we don't worry about that scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is something near groundbreaking material for my poker...
thanks.