What Aren't You Getting From Your WSOP Coverage...? [Archive]

KenP

07-17-2006, 03:27 PM

Last year CP had great coverage. One improvement this year, the hand for hand info. The video showing is fewer/blander. And CP is reported to have paid a whorehouse price for an exclusive which should have made for more/better. Of course all that may be that I just can't find their crap in the improved web design--but, I doubt it. Last year, there was a decent evening interview show--kinda hokey at time but good at others.. This year it is boytown's version of 'The View' and they aren't getting the interviews and the one's they get are shallow pimping and dependent on bathroom humor.

Pauly is either a jaded sellout or saw the handwriting on the wall and head for his 'hooker bar' There ain't nuttin' there--Gonzo became Bonzo.

Pokerwire seems to be in the same pocket with CP--Full Tilt's pocket. They get the same coverage--evidently due to FT's largess.

Stories critical of Harrah's pop up everywhere and are squashed in short order. There is no objective reporting outside a few blogs that get zero, heresay, or limited access to information.

BarronVangorToth

07-17-2006, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If Card Players coverage was accurate, or up-to-date, it would be a pretty good set up, but it is rarely either.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the up-to-date front, how quick do you think news should be reported. For example, let's say some hand just transpired between Daniel Negreanu and Doyle Brunson. Thinking of the logistics of a viewer of that hand needing a moment or three to write out what happened... should it be posted withint 10 minutes? 15? 20?

As far as accuracy goes, do you care if, say, it says Player X has $80,000 chips when in actuality he has $82,000? Considering the size of the field and the number of "name" players -- not to mention not being able to physically grab a player's chips to count them out, but rather resorting to eyeballing -- what margin of error is acceptable? 5%? 2%?

BarronVangorToth

07-17-2006, 03:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Stories critical of Harrah's pop up everywhere and are squashed in short order. There is no objective reporting outside a few blogs that get zero, heresay, or limited access to information.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would this be information you would want to see more of? Reviews and editorials of the goings-on without a lot of pandering to the "powers that be," but rather just plain ol' journalism with a dash of salt?

As far as interviews go -- what types of questions aren't being asked? Do you like seeing the same names interviewed or would you rather hear from, I don't know, Random Internet Guy who happens to be the chip-leader at a given point?

Thanks to both posters for the replies, as well as any others folks might want to share.

Kevmath

07-17-2006, 03:46 PM

How about if the "exclusive" home of World Series coverage actually provdide coverage of the behind the scenes stuff. For example, the dealers walking out over pay, not "technical difficulties". How about the Harry Demetriou incident that was posted, then pulled? How about that today's $1,500 went from w/rebuy, to no rebuy, to a 2nd tournament with rebuys.

Kevmath

07-17-2006, 03:49 PM

You could also include Harrah's mistreatment of various international players, regarding ITINs. Seems they're going after quite a few people, asking them to pay taxes that were supposed to have been paid last year. http://www.thehendonmob.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65252 as an example.

ohkanada

07-17-2006, 03:57 PM

I think cardplayer is doing fine for the 1st few days of the events. Obviously more information is better but with huge fields one can only expect so much in these large fields.

The final table has been an issue. Lately we are getting hand for hand details for most final tables which is great. My only issue now is why not only post a few hands at a time instead of posting 5 or 6 hands. I can't see that being any more difficult. At the beginning of the WSOP card player was not doing hand for hand details. The Phil Hellmuth final table had horrible coverage from cardplayer. It will be interesting to see how today goes since there is another Hellmuth final table plus there is also a limit event with a bunch of 2+2ers at the final table. The Chen/Nath final table did not have hand for hand details for some reason. Maybe cardplayer was still sleeping after the long battle in the HORSE event.

Ken

BarronVangorToth

07-17-2006, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think cardplayer is doing fine for the 1st few days of the events. Obviously more information is better but with huge fields one can only expect so much in these large fields.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it's an incredibly difficult thing to do, and the point of this thread wasn't to bash the work anyone has done thusfar, but mostly to see what, in an ideal world, would be available to people.

benza13

07-17-2006, 04:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Card Players coverage was accurate, or up-to-date, it would be a pretty good set up, but it is rarely either.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the up-to-date front, how quick do you think news should be reported. For example, let's say some hand just transpired between Daniel Negreanu and Doyle Brunson. Thinking of the logistics of a viewer of that hand needing a moment or three to write out what happened... should it be posted withint 10 minutes? 15? 20?

As far as accuracy goes, do you care if, say, it says Player X has $80,000 chips when in actuality he has $82,000? Considering the size of the field and the number of "name" players -- not to mention not being able to physically grab a player's chips to count them out, but rather resorting to eyeballing -- what margin of error is acceptable? 5%? 2%?

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as accuracy of chipstacks, it depends on the stage of the tournament - when there is less than 20 people, they should all be pretty damn close. Chip stacks have taken far too long to update when people go on a heater/cooler in the late stages. When the fields are still large chip stacks are going to be hard to keep up with, obviously, but they need to get the action right if they are going to post it. See the Nath sweat thread, CSC's posts about his tournament, or a variety of other posts where they have been way off on the action.

During Nath's final table we were getting up to the minute updates via UCLA's Treo and a couple of people on AIM here, during this time Cardplayer was often 5-10 minutes behind and way off on the action. If they are going to be exclusively reporting from a final table at least get the action right, even if it is 5-10 minutes off.

There's no reason CP can't have someone at the table texting the info to someone at a computer who can easily and quickly update the website.

BarronVangorToth

07-17-2006, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

There's no reason CP can't have someone at the table texting the info to someone at a computer who can easily and quickly update the website.

[/ QUOTE ]

While my experience at high-level events is limited, at the recent Foxwoods WPT event months ago, four or five sites did physically have someone at the table with a notebook jotting down details and then running off to their laptop in the corner. So, while I can see a hand occasionally getting mixed up (a suit here, a "blank" card there), you're right, IF you have a hand breakdown, it should be accurate (or as accurate as can be: i.e. the flop had two clubs and a diamond and the cards were King-Queen-Five, etc. etc.)

BarronVangorToth

07-17-2006, 04:39 PM

Since you mentioned Nath...

Another thing: do you think coverage should go in-depth into people that no one (relatively) knows about? Like with Schneids, for example, he was played up as almost some random kid who borrowed the money off buddies for a spin ... and yet we all know he's a top-level player who's been dominating online games for quite some time and is far from some random-kid-who-took-a-shot. Is that really irksome ... or par for the course?

ohkanada

07-17-2006, 04:43 PM

If you read Jerrod's blog (2nd place going into todays 3k limit final), he jokes that he is the invisible person. I don't believe he has been mentioned at all except for chip positions. Now on the 1st day I understand that, but after he goes into the 2nd day as the chip leader one would think cardplayer could find a place to mention him during day 2.

Ken

Kevmath

07-17-2006, 04:47 PM

In Blair Rodman's recent blog entry, he was bemoaning the fact that Card Player was only giving chip counts of the "usual media darlings", while ignoring the long time pros that Mike Paulle could list like it was nothing.

MicroBob

07-17-2006, 05:01 PM

I think covering such goings-on in such a hectic environment has to be way more difficult than I can even imagine.

All the long-hours of some of those events, etc etc.
How many people does CP have running around trying to pull this off?

I suspect most people who follow it only care about the media-darlings, and maybe a friend or two of theirs who is in it.

I imagine it's very tough to do the work on the non-famous types.
They don't wear name-tags. They get moved from one table to another.
"Johnny Chan goes all-in against some unknown with a big chip-stack in seat 4" has to be what they are seeing a lot of.

Name-tags would probably help in this regard.
I think it's something to consider.

Then they could walk around at the main-event and update the chip-counts from each table of every player.
This would take work of course. But I think a lot of people would appreciate it.

Lots of people ask stuff about how they can get updates on their friend who is playing in the main-event on day 1B.
Ummm, unless he's already famous OR he builds a huge stack there will be zero updates on him. Zero.

I knew this ahead of time and set up somebody with the password for my blog so that I could provide updates for my family and friends every hour or so by stepping away from the table for a quick phone-call.
People who were following me in the main-event really seemed to enjoy it (even though I didn't really do much to be excited about).

I think there will be 8,000 people at the main-event this year. Many of those players will be total unknowns with family and friends who would be extremely interested in following along on the web.

I also envision a live broadcast of this with different reporters on wireless mic's in different areas of the room. They would pass back and forth to each other and give chip-stack updates of the 'media darlings' as well as the total unknowns (if they had name-tags).
Kind of tossing back and forth to each other like they do in a radio broacast of a NASCAR race.

I haven't listened to any of the coverage so far. But I am guessing they haven't done anything that elaborate yet.

BarronVangorToth

07-17-2006, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you read Jerrod's blog (2nd place going into todays 3k limit final), he jokes that he is the invisible person.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is entirely possible -- as MicroBob writes above, players aren't wearing nametags (it is a great idea IF everyone would agree to it) and with players moving around, even if you have down that "John Smith" is table 45 seat 6, by the time you get back to that table, it's a girl sitting in that seat -- and clearly not John Smith.

That's sadly why someone mostly gets known at these events by doing something silly. You can be sure if you jumped on your chair and did the cabbage patch for a minute after winning a hand, someone would ask you your name ... but, then again, you get moved and no one remembers you as the cabbage patch guy.

BarronVangorToth

07-17-2006, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Lots of people ask stuff about how they can get updates on their friend who is playing in the main-event on day 1B.
Ummm, unless he's already famous OR he builds a huge stack there will be zero updates on him. Zero.

[/ QUOTE ]

I went into WPT Foxwoods hoping to rectify the Schneids situation by specifically covering some 2+2 guys playing in the event. I ran into this same problem from Barry as he came in and asked me how X, Y, and Z were doing -- and I couldn't pick them out of the crowd. I knew Joe Tall.

[ QUOTE ]

I knew this ahead of time and set up somebody with the password for my blog so that I could provide updates for my family and friends every hour or so by stepping away from the table for a quick phone-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good idea.

[ QUOTE ]

I think there will be 8,000 people at the main-event this year. Many of those players will be total unknowns with family and friends who would be extremely interested in following along on the web.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. And part of the problem is the number of people able to do the reporting. Sites (although I imagine not CardPlayer or PokerWire) have limited badges which they're allowed to have. So expecting even 20 guys running around from a number of different sites to catch every big hand, then know the names, then relay the information -- all while missing all other action -- is problematic, especially in the early stages. It's especially troubling asking for the loser of a big hand's name. Guy X wins a massive pot -- he's all too happy to say he's Bill Johnson from Chicago. But asking the guy who just got one-outed to state his name and place of origin isn't the best way to make friends.

[ QUOTE ]

I haven't listened to any of the coverage so far. But I am guessing they haven't done anything that elaborate yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, they haven't, but it's another great idea if it's able to be implemented.

WoolyHat

07-17-2006, 05:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Of course all that may be that I just can't find their crap in the improved web design

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I think this is huge. I could really go to town here, but in a nut shell, I just think they should fire their web designer, it's awful. Whatever the content of the coverage the presentation needs a huge overhaul. Get a usability specialist involved or, at the very least, a competent web designer.

Also, I live in Europe so most the events happen over night here. It might sound quite sad, but I actually quite like reviewing the events as they unfolded when I get up in the morning. This is close to impossible on CardPlayer's site, since all the most recent news (i.e. the results) is right at the start / top. Without some clever obscuring of the screen every time I click a link, I have no hope.. So, having two formats to the updates would be great:

- One like it is now, with the most up-to-date news right at the top for following the event as it happens.

- A second "review mode," where I can follow the event from the start and not have to worry about scrolling to the bottom of the page without catch a glimpse of the spoilers at the top.

I know this isn't quite what you are asking, but I think it's important... it's something that could be fixed about the coverage very easily, without having to worry about the politics imposed by Harrah's.

benza13

07-17-2006, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Since you mentioned Nath...

Another thing: do you think coverage should go in-depth into people that no one (relatively) knows about? Like with Schneids, for example, he was played up as almost some random kid who borrowed the money off buddies for a spin ... and yet we all know he's a top-level player who's been dominating online games for quite some time and is far from some random-kid-who-took-a-shot. Is that really irksome ... or par for the course?

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone is an "unknown" to CardPlayer, I would like to see them get his/her name before making updates, I understand this could be difficult every time, but it would be really nice. As far as in-depth coverage, I am guessing this is more related to TV and Radio where they are going to do something to make these unknowns more interesting. I wouldn't want them to lie, and the situation with Schneids you described doesn't sound too good. You would think that if they are going to cover someone a little more in depth that they would do some research on them and say that they are a successful internet player, or whatever.

BarronVangorToth

07-17-2006, 05:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I know this isn't quite what you are asking, but I think it's important... it's something that could be fixed about the coverage very easily, without having to worry about the politics imposed by Harrah's.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a big point, though, and certainly falls into the realm of things you'd like to see improved with the coverage. Again, whether feasible or not is another story. When you consider how much of the audience isn't watching in "real time" (even if someone is in the same time zone doesn't mean they are sitting at their computer hitting 'refresh' every five seconds) I can see that as a huge annoyance having all information start with the newest on top, as you'll see, I don't know, "Josh Arieh busted out!" when the last thing you read the night before was how he was the chip-leader. Kind of a letdown...

sirtimo

07-17-2006, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IName-tags would probably help in this regard.
I think it's something to consider.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be very easy and relatively cheap to implement. When you register for an event they could take your photo and print it on a ID badge with a bar code of your info almost instantly. Like a school or work ID. You could use it for all of the events you enter just by swiping it. Might even load it with cash like a debit card for the rebuys.

*TT*

07-17-2006, 06:17 PM

Nobody is discussing cash games, thats some of the most interesting action in the Rio in my humble opinion besides the HORSE 50k buyin. More fortunes have always been made and lost in the cash games than in the tournaments themselves.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

BarronVangorToth

07-17-2006, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is discussing cash games, thats some of the most interesting action in the Rio in my humble opinion besides the HORSE 50k buyin. More fortunes have always been made and lost in the cash games than in the tournaments themselves.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

PHENOMENAL idea.

Would you expect (or hope) this would be live coverage throughout the night OR would you be happy enough seeing anecdotes and hands in report-form in the morning?

*TT*

07-17-2006, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody is discussing cash games, thats some of the most interesting action in the Rio in my humble opinion besides the HORSE 50k buyin. More fortunes have always been made and lost in the cash games than in the tournaments themselves.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

PHENOMENAL idea.

Would you expect (or hope) this would be live coverage throughout the night OR would you be happy enough seeing anecdotes and hands in report-form in the morning?

[/ QUOTE ]

Following day would do, its more about who is in the action, what they are playing, who is winner and who is not winner. Some hands would be interesting as well of course in PLO, NL and oddball games such as Chinese Poker and Badugi. Limit hands wouldn't be as fascinating unfortunately but talk of XYZ player totally dominated the 100/200 tables would be most excellent.

Also if you could lobby to get the 2007 WSOP expanded to start 1 week early with cash games, and also to put the cash games in a separate room that would be a great service to the community. There aren't enough tables, the cash games don't spread until late in the day when there are tons of players chomping at the bit to play much bigger than the Rio can accommodate. Most of the really high limit action went over to the Bellagio because the Rio just didn't have it together.

This is also a great way to introduce lesser known names who are the heavies of the internet games to the general public, it seems we are cleaning up at the cash game tables this year from what I saw.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

bav

07-17-2006, 07:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My only issue now is why not only post a few hands at a time instead of posting 5 or 6 hands. I can't see that being any more difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dunno how they're doing it this year, but last year they basically had guys out at the tables taking notes, and phoning 'em in to another set of guys at the laptops who typed it all in. There's a fair bit of overhead to each of these interactions, so clumping 5 or 7 hands together in each update makes sense. And I don't see the need for instant real-time updates...15-minute delays seem ok for these things to me.

I think CP has improved a lot since the start of the WSOP. The first tourneys were just abysmally reported. I think the reporting is more detailed and more timely now, and the major flaw remains the redesigned web site, which truly, stunningly sucks. HORRIBLE idea to throw it in mid-WSOP. But then, Harrah's did the same thing with the worldseriesofpoker.com site, the redesign of which is awful. Folks forget it's all about the information and how it's presented, not about the pretty graphics.

SumZero

07-17-2006, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We all know the sites that have coverage, big and small.

What information aren't you getting enough?

What information do you not care about?

In short: if you had your way when you clicked on Site X, what would you see?

(Note to mods: I wasn't sure if this was WSOP-related or more suited for News, Views, and Gossip; move it there with my apologies if that's where this belongs.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are talking about ideal I'd love to be able to drill down and get full hand information and full chip stack info for any table on any tournament.

Sort of like a gamecast for tournament poker. That way if I wanted to sweat someone I could.

I realize that CP doesn't have that info right now. It would be difficult to do, but with some combination of RFID chips, players registering with names and photos at startup time, simple webcam covering the tables with cheap transcription, it is at least technologically possible to have coverage about as good as the final table currently is for the earlier tables.

MicroBob

07-18-2006, 03:41 AM

You couldn't have updates on each hand on each table.

but I don't think it would be that impossible to have a list of all 2k players on day 1a and have semi-frequent updates on their chip-stack size.

I think it could be done semi-decently with 10 people.
You would have 4 people roaming around. Each would cover 1/4 of the tables. So they only have 50 tables to update.

You have 4 people on head-sets and computers to copy-in all the info that is being relayed to them audibly.

You hsve 2 people on stand-by to rotate in and give breaks.

Reporter A is covering tables 1-50 and is on a head-set just saying out-loud the chip-stack sizes of each player at each table.
He is speaking directly to blogger-A who is updating the first 500 names on the list.

he starts at table 1 and just says:
1-1 (no need to say Table 1, Seat 1) - John smith, 10-thousand
1-2 - Matt Akawnadoodle-doo, 9-thousand, 8-hundred

etc etc

The blogger who is listening to all this has a list of all the names in the correct table-order and is also able to easily find them via alphabetical or anything else. Just use a decent program that allows you to toggle back and forth between lists for when players get moved to different tables.

so that guy mostly just has to find the name (and have a program that makes it easy to do so) and type in the approximated chip-amount.

Now that I think about it, 2 reporters in each quandrant might be a little bit better so that they can kind of keep up with players who have been eliminated who tend to leave as fast as they can a lot of the time.

It would also be helpful if each player were required to give their name after busting-out.

as it is currently, if you aren't in the money you just bust-out and leave the room...without me saying so there is absolutely no record of whether I busted on day 1a at 1:00pm or at 11:00pm.

I'm sure I'm making this a little more complicated than it needs to be.
But the way I envision it, it would definitely be do-able to update the ups and downs of 2,000 players and their chip-stacks if a web-site had the manpower and desire to do this.

I also believe that an audio-webcast could conceiveably be done similarly (again, borrowing from the NASCAR radio structue a bit).
But you would have to have a little more story-line in there of the name players and couldn't just read a list of every single one of the 2,000 names over and over again.

pineapple888

07-18-2006, 03:46 AM

RFID chips could very well be down to 5c each by next year.

Implant them in name tags and the large-denomination chips.

Color up aggressively.

Done.

BarronVangorToth

07-18-2006, 08:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to see them get his/her name before making updates, I understand this could be difficult every time, but it would be really nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed -- and it is relatively easy on those occasions when that "unknown" bests a big name in a huge pot. John Q. Public with visions of millions dancing in his head doesn't mind rattling off his name and serial number then. However ... when they lose that big pot, it's not exactly the time they want to be asked their name, asked to repeat their name, and, oh, yeah, your name is hard to spell, could you spell it while you think about the fact that you're now crippled in chips.

Name tags would rule so much it wouldn't be funny.

BarronVangorToth

07-18-2006, 08:48 AM

Bob --

I agree, with 10 people (maybe a dozen), you could do exactly what you're looking for. Granted: it would be up to CardPlayer and/or PokerWire to make that happen as they're the only sites allowed to have more than just a couple of people.

Requiring people to register when they bust out is huge. When you think about it, during the day, no one really knows who's in the tournament and who is not. The only thing stopping a big name pro from buying someone else's seat is that a number of people saw that pro get busted out at some other table.

Regardless, a big problem for all sites is that even if the floor knows where everyone is to start, they're always in the process of breaking tables as people bust out and those charts aren't kept as up-to-date as one would hope. (Which then goes back to the name tag idea being terrific.)

Jackie Onassis

07-18-2006, 09:42 AM

They could stop mentioning Jennifer Tilly as she is irrelevant. Also, second the side game coverage rec.

BarronVangorToth

07-18-2006, 09:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
They could stop mentioning Jennifer Tilly as she is irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree there is too much time spent covering random people who are only mentioned repeatedly due to being attractive females in an industry with only a few, but you have to admit there is a segment of the internet audience (and I don't think it's a very small percentage) that are very interested in what these women are doing (and wearing).

You cannot please everyone all the time ... but this is one area where I think the supply is justified by the demand.

Jackie Onassis

07-18-2006, 10:35 AM

Oh, btw. They could remove this hideous puppet head from the frontpage. Learn to make an appealing ad, wtf.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/jiminypage/adimage.jpg

TBZ

07-18-2006, 11:13 AM

Is there a place to view all entrants to a completed event and where they placed? Not just the players who cashed. I'd like to see how a couple guys ended up but can't find listings for entire field.

BarronVangorToth

07-18-2006, 11:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a place to view all entrants to a completed event and where they placed? Not just the players who cashed. I'd like to see how a couple guys ended up but can't find listings for entire field.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one really knows this as there aren't careful records early in an event when someone leaves. As I believe MicroBob noted above, much of this comes down to people just saying "busted out quarter-past 1pm" and not the official site listing who got knocked out at 1:14 and who went at 1:16.

Kevmath

07-18-2006, 11:22 AM

The PPT seems to have a format down for people who bust out. They're given a card and directed to the "pink lady", who gets their information and details of their last hand. This would seem to work for your smaller field tournaments (150-200).

BarronVangorToth

07-18-2006, 11:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The PPT seems to have a format down for people who bust out. They're given a card and directed to the "pink lady", who gets their information and details of their last hand. This would seem to work for your smaller field tournaments (150-200).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. It would be nice if WPT would implement that for their events. Theoretically, WSOP could have it for the Main Event as well (maybe not this year, but...)

tpir

07-18-2006, 11:30 AM

Just having the info in an easier-to-browse format would be great. I thought Cardplayer's layout last year was pretty decent... but this year's design is completely abysmal.

BarronVangorToth

07-18-2006, 12:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just having the info in an easier-to-browse format would be great. I thought Cardplayer's layout last year was pretty decent... but this year's design is completely abysmal.

[/ QUOTE ]

While there has been some CardPlayer bashing in this thread, I must say that isn't my intention, which is why I didn't mention them (or any site) specifically.

But, since you don't like their layout: how would information be organized for you if you had your way? (Whether on CardPlayer or any other site.)

rmgustaf

07-18-2006, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If someone is an "unknown" to CardPlayer, I would like to see them get his/her name before making updates, I understand this could be difficult every time, but it would be really nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Asking people names at the table is distracting and annoys people - Johnny Chan called the floor on one CP guy for standing too close during a hand (he was behind the dealer). Unless there's a very good opportunity to get in and ask someone their name, and they have a big enough stack where it looks like they'll be around later on, there's no point in getting the names of people they'll just lose track of and leave in the chip counts for hours.

MyTurn2Raise

07-18-2006, 04:09 PM

need an official 2p2 reporter to keep track of 2p2 posters

you guys pay me alot and I'll run around the Rio next year with updates. 2p2ers find me, and/or text me, I relay the info back. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

52s

07-18-2006, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Following day would do, its more about who is in the action, what they are playing, who is winner and who is not winner. Some hands would be interesting as well of course in PLO, NL and oddball games such as Chinese Poker and Badugi. Limit hands wouldn't be as fascinating unfortunately but talk of XYZ player totally dominated the 100/200 tables would be most excellent.

[/ QUOTE ]

No player in their right mind will want whether they won or lost at the cash games splattered over the 'Net.

C'mon.

I think what should be more realistically expected, and would be more useful, is updates on what games are going on.

It would actually be a pretty nifty service if people could just go onto CP and be able to read "Live action games going on right now include Chinese Poker @ $100/pt, 50/100 NL, 100/200 NL..." and so on as a way to entice the bigger action to go to the Rio, knowing the games are there, going on, *right now*.

ohkanada

07-18-2006, 05:13 PM

2+2 could do a lot of things to help sales during the wsop if they had a booth and some official listing of 2+2 posters who have made the money. Of course tracking the 2+2ers would be required.

Ken

csquard

07-18-2006, 11:22 PM

I covered the first week for PokerWorks, as well as did a good bit of coverage for my blog. Not speaking for PokerWorks but a few observations from the week:
>> At the beginning of coverage, the individuals capturing data in the room were very, very inexperienced, lacking both player and poker knowledge.
>> Media received changing courses in direction regarding what was and wasn't allowed. When the field is cut to 15 tables, only CP folks can be inside the ropes (see diagram of the room at this link http://ccexplore.blogspot.com/2006/07/flurry-of-activity.html).
After being in the main room for Day 1 action, photographing away, I was told that this was not allowed one morning. After raising a slight ruckus and getting some others involved, it became apparent that this was a knee-jerk reaction to pressures rather than a policy change. I was then allowed to photograph as before.
>> There are no formal programs with any players except for ESPN filming of the final table interviews. Otherwise, it is a pure free-for-all. It will be roughly 100 times worse for the Main Event with credentialed folks coming in huge numbers
>> One of the things I did early on in Event #2 was to meet railbirds, photograph folks. I probably emailed a dozen photos of people, figuring they paid $1.5k the least they could get was a photo.
>> Asking for a name and details of an unknown is no big deal, simple to do. I did it on countless occasions.
>> Regarding in play hovering, again I think it goes back to poker experience. Whenever I stumbled upon some big hand with action, I'd walk away and turn away from the action. Having said that, the players need to understand the coverage process of what is and is not allowed at the table. None of that is really defined as it is in other competitions (e.g., shooting pictures during Tiger's tee shot), so everyone is left to their own devices.
>> Many low-tech improvements could be possible. There is no reason every player isn't identified somehow at the table (some sort of signage). I'll leave the ideas to others, but I'm sure Harrah's and WPT are investigating chips with electronic tracking to allow real-time chip counts.

My fundamental issue regarding coverage is that we really don't have media coverage or access, we have purchased rights to data collection and dissemination. My view is that this is an unfortunate yet to be expected transition phase for poker and the WSOP. The systemic issues of operations are another matter for another post. Both have some similar symptoms, however: no process for feedback, inconsistency in communication, poor identification of issues and problem resolution.

I'll be headed back for the duration later this week, so feel free to contact if you'd like anything in particular. Hope some of this is helpful.

nath

07-19-2006, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The Chen/Nath final table did not have hand for hand details for some reason. Maybe cardplayer was still sleeping after the long battle in the HORSE event.

[/ QUOTE ]

This more likely had to do with the fact that heads-up lasted two hands.

It is a little disconcerting that (relative) unknowns aren't covered until they do something big... even those who have been previously successful and/or are professionals, just not as much in the public's eye.

More about me would be nice, obviously, but I think I have to go far again before that happens.

MicroBob

07-19-2006, 12:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is there a place to view all entrants to a completed event and where they placed? Not just the players who cashed. I'd like to see how a couple guys ended up but can't find listings for entire field.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one really knows this as there aren't careful records early in an event when someone leaves. As I believe MicroBob noted above, much of this comes down to people just saying "busted out quarter-past 1pm" and not the official site listing who got knocked out at 1:14 and who went at 1:16.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you aren't famous and don't make it past day 1 then there is absolutely NO ORDER of who busted when.
I think this is something that people don't understand about big tournaments.

I busted around 10pm I think on day 1.
I lost my chips, I got up and left.

Not a single person at the table knew my name (I had been at the same table all day).
There was nothing that noted that microbob finished in 4968th place or whatever.

About 10 minutes after I busted out, johnny Chan lost his remaining chips (we were on same table the whole day).
There is nothing that says that Chan finished ahead of me.
He busts out, he gets up and leaves. But obviously when he does that people know who he is. And there is a rough approximation of how many people had busted up to that point.

But there is no registry of who busted when.

You just show up, play, bust-out, leave (unless you last until day 2 and/or cash).

dlk9s

07-19-2006, 01:00 AM

In regards to the CP/Pokerwire live updates, I really wish there could be some exception to the "no communication devices" rule for them.

I have a media credential (as I did last year), but it's only me doing any reporting for my outlet, so I don't attempt live updates. But walking around, of course I observe the CP/PW staffers on their walkie-talkies, giving people at laptops updates.

I think a quicker and more accurate way to get those live updates out would be to let the chip counters and other roamers update the sites via a handheld device, like a Palm Pilot. Now, I don't know how difficult/expensive it would be to program and populate player data, but I am picturing a database or spreadsheet program on each handheld that the staffers update to indicate chip stack changes, table changes, and eliminations. The changes are then fed to CP/PW's website somehow and everything is auto-updated every few minutes. Again, no idea as to the difficulty/expense of this, but it would be nice.

As for completely automated chip counts, I envisioned an RFID solution that I think would be possible at some point. Like above, I have no idea HOW difficult or HOW expensive it might be, but it seems possible.

I am under the assumption that some day, all of the poker chips will have RFID chips in them. The next step would be to have a marked off area at each seat at the table where the players must stack their chips. When the chips are in this area, they can be read and associated with that seat. Obviously, this requires the cooperation of the players and very large stacks could pose problems, but hopefully, you get the idea.

To match them up with the player in that seat, each player, similar to what happens now, is assigned a player ID # when they register, which is printed on their ticket, along with a barcode. Each table has a little bar code scanner (along with number pad in case the code is unreadable). When a player is seated, the dealer scans the ticket, along with entering which seat the player is in. Now there is a name to match the chip stack. When players are eliminated, the dealer scans the ticket again and hits some button to indicate an elimination. When a player is moved, he does the same thing, but hits a "moved" button instead of an "elimination" button. When the player is reseated, the chip counts are either redone when the chips are restacked, or the count was remembered from when the player was moved. This would also help people with their payouts, since elimination information could automatically be fed to the officials who handle payouts.

One more time: I have absolutely no idea how feasible any of this is or will be and have no concept of the cost.

It's just a little poker dream I had.

BarronVangorToth

07-19-2006, 08:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]

More about me would be nice, obviously, but I think I have to go far again before that happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

I imagine it would happen ... especially if your next time is after you're on TV, because then you'll be recognized that much easier.

But, yes, this all does make for a fundamentally flawed system.

Another issue is, no offense, but how many people want to read about people other than the -- pick a number -- top X TV players they know about? I believe even a poll about this on 2+2 wouldn't be accurate as I think the 2+2 audience would be more interested to hear about others than John Q. Sixpack who isn't a 2+2'er.

Regardless of the percentage, I think it's a sizeable one, there are simply some people who only look at coverage to see how Daniel Negreanu, Doyle Brunson, Phil Ivey... etc etc. are doing.

BarronVangorToth

07-19-2006, 08:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]

It's just a little poker dream I had.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also the PokerWire girls' nightmare, I imagine.

tpir

07-19-2006, 09:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just having the info in an easier-to-browse format would be great. I thought Cardplayer's layout last year was pretty decent... but this year's design is completely abysmal.

[/ QUOTE ]

While there has been some CardPlayer bashing in this thread, I must say that isn't my intention, which is why I didn't mention them (or any site) specifically.

But, since you don't like their layout: how would information be organized for you if you had your way? (Whether on CardPlayer or any other site.)

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not my intention either... I am just calling it like I see it.

For starters I would clean the front page up quite a bit. The quick links it tries to give you are rarely useful or interesting. I would also reorganize the main WSOP page and clean up the left-side column. It should not take me as many clicks as it does to get info for a final table they are covering live. It's like they are trying to hide it from us.

Yuv

07-19-2006, 09:36 AM

I didn't exactly read what other people have posted, so I might be repeating some stuff.

1) Most importently, GET A GAMECAST. Seriously. Why the [censored] hasn't this done already? All final tables should have a gamecast type update on java, where everyhand is updated live. This is availbale for almost any sport updates out there (and I know since i'm a fantasy sport freak). These updates are straight off 1996. I'm sure the technology for a gamecast updates from hand 1 are possible, but at least get one for FT's.

2) Better writing. There are plenty of great bloggers out there with writing skills who can do these updates. I have no idea where they get their interns, but geez.

3) Profiles. It's hard enough to care about 8 unknowns players and 1 semi-pro when they reach the FT. Some of these unknowns might be known live players who don't post on 2+2 or P5, some might have an interesting live story. Talk to them before the FT starts. Get a profile on with a picture so I'll have some intrest in that. Pokerpages used to do that, but their WSOP coverage is terrible, due to CP buying the updates rights.

4) More non-hand related anacdotes. Especially in middle stages or during the bubble, where few showdowns are seen, get some stories from around the tables. The few that are updated are usually entertaining enough to be re-posted here, so get more of these.

rmgustaf

07-19-2006, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You couldn't have updates on each hand on each table.

but I don't think it would be that impossible to have a list of all 2k players on day 1a and have semi-frequent updates on their chip-stack size.

I think it could be done semi-decently with 10 people.
You would have 4 people roaming around. Each would cover 1/4 of the tables. So they only have 50 tables to update.

You have 4 people on head-sets and computers to copy-in all the info that is being relayed to them audibly.

You hsve 2 people on stand-by to rotate in and give breaks.

Reporter A is covering tables 1-50 and is on a head-set just saying out-loud the chip-stack sizes of each player at each table.
He is speaking directly to blogger-A who is updating the first 500 names on the list.

he starts at table 1 and just says:
1-1 (no need to say Table 1, Seat 1) - John smith, 10-thousand
1-2 - Matt Akawnadoodle-doo, 9-thousand, 8-hundred

etc etc

The blogger who is listening to all this has a list of all the names in the correct table-order and is also able to easily find them via alphabetical or anything else. Just use a decent program that allows you to toggle back and forth between lists for when players get moved to different tables.

so that guy mostly just has to find the name (and have a program that makes it easy to do so) and type in the approximated chip-amount.

Now that I think about it, 2 reporters in each quandrant might be a little bit better so that they can kind of keep up with players who have been eliminated who tend to leave as fast as they can a lot of the time.

It would also be helpful if each player were required to give their name after busting-out.

as it is currently, if you aren't in the money you just bust-out and leave the room...without me saying so there is absolutely no record of whether I busted on day 1a at 1:00pm or at 11:00pm.

I'm sure I'm making this a little more complicated than it needs to be.
But the way I envision it, it would definitely be do-able to update the ups and downs of 2,000 players and their chip-stacks if a web-site had the manpower and desire to do this.

I also believe that an audio-webcast could conceiveably be done similarly (again, borrowing from the NASCAR radio structue a bit).
But you would have to have a little more story-line in there of the name players and couldn't just read a list of every single one of the 2,000 names over and over again.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know what you're talking about. Covering 500 people with one person in a timely fashion is impossible.