Doyle Brunson's exit pot in HORSE

[LarsVegas]

Doyle Brunson's exit hand in the HORSE tournament seems bizarre. Can anyone give me a detailed report from the hand or guide me onto a link to it.

lars

[DXX]

he's old. give him a break

[Kevmath]

The hand that crippled him, from CP:
Blinds are 12k/24k/4k
[ QUOTE ]
52. Doyle Brunson raises to $75,000 from early positiona and T.J. Cloutier moves all in from the button and Brunson makes the call. Cloutier turns over 9diamond9spade and Brunson flips over KclubJspade. The board comes 6diamond5spade3club2club8heart and T.J. Cloutier has doubled up.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 hands later:

[ QUOTE ]
54. David Singer raises to $65,000 from the cutoff and Jim Bechtel makes the call from the small blind. Doyle Brunson makes the call from the big blind and is left with $8,000 in chips. The flop comes Qspade8diamond2spade and it is checked to Singer, who bets $150,000. Bechtel raises to $500,000 and Brunson calls all in. Singer folds and Bechtel turns over AclubQdiamond. Brunson turns Jheart6club and will need to improve. The turn is the 7heart and the river is the 8heart. Doyle Brunson has been eliminated from the tournament in 8th place.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MeanGreenTT]

[ QUOTE ]
he's old. give him a break

[/ QUOTE ]

goot monkey

[Russ M.]

http://www.astro.washington.edu/reed/info/donkey.jpg

[Yuv]

What's crazy? He had an ante left. He was all in anyhow, I guess he wanted to be heads-up instead of pushing preflop, having both call and check it down.

[Lawman007]

Geez, guys, cut the fella some slack. He could never play another hand of poker and still be the greatest poker player who ever lived. Show some respect.

You can criticize how he played those hands, but the donkey BS is out of line. How many bracelets do you have?

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
Geez, guys, cut the fella some slack. He could never play another hand of poker and still be the greatest poker player who ever lived. Show some respect.

You can criticize how he played those hands, but the donkey BS is out of line. How many bracelets do you have?

[/ QUOTE ]
Your sarcasm meter is broken.
Also, does this mean Johnny Chan and Phil Hellmuth are the second and third best poker players of all time? And Bill Baxter is fourth?

[Yuv]

And you are fifth (how's your sarcasm meter going now?).

[betgo]

He is an OK HORSE player, but he doesn't know how to play NLHE. The change in games really hurt him.

[NLfool]

these are poker live reports so accuracy isn't their strong point. And as far as I know Brunson hasn't gone senile. I say no way he CALLS allin with J high no pair no draw (unless he had like ~1-2BB left)

[Rianna]

For those that seem to enjoy berating one of the finest All around poker players that you have had the pleaseure to watch, the KJ play given the chips, isn't out of line IMHO.

It's a matter of chip position. duh.

Doyle IMHO is one of the top 'all game' players of all time. Yes, he's over 70 but doesn't need an excuse. He wouldn't IMO want any.

Doyle finishes in EIGHTH, out of 143 of the finest players on the planet and from some that most likely play micro online, gets slammed. Amazing.

Forgive my anger, I not only feel Doyle is a fine man, a fine embassador for poker but one of the greatest ALL AROUND players of all time. How about some respect.

[Leonardo]

What the hell are you talking about? There is ~230 thousand in the pot and he has to call 8 thousand? What hand would you fold, ever?

[Michael Davis]

How is criticizing someone's play disrespecting him?

-Michael

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell are you talking about? There is ~230 thousand in the pot and he has to call 8 thousand? What hand would you fold, ever?

[/ QUOTE ]


So he's getting 28.75 to 1 to call in order to hit backdoor two pair/trips/straight. And he saw a bet and a raise in front of him. He's got to be up against at least top pair if not a set or maybe A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif in which case he's only a 7.76 to 1 dog, or maybe J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif (16.37 to 1.) T /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif is the best case scenario at (1.64 to 1.) He is 60.88 to 1 against a set.

Against the actual hand of AQ Brunson is 30.94 to 1 in order to win and he called only getting 28.75 to 1.

Clearly this proves that Doyle Brunson is a friggin donkey.

HEE HAW!

[JJNJustin]

I, too, wondered about this when I read it on cardplayer. My only guess is that once his stack was crippled he figured he had no chance of beating Chip Reese and gave up. Apparently he was playing for the bracelet and not for the difference in prize money, which makes sense at his age.

-J

[sobefuddled]

FRom his SS #1 book..."When you're in a tournament, and it becomes obvious to you that you are probably going to lose, I think it's best to go out with a bang, rather than a whimper. Go out playing with courage rather than tightly and meekly."
I would say if this thread's response to Brunson's decision is any indicator Texas Dolly took his own advice and went out with a bang! LOL The man has so much class. If it weren't for him there is no way the WSOP would have become the popular event it has become.

[betgo]

In any tournament I have played in standard short stack play near the bubble or in the money is to fold until you are blinded out, moving up in places. Brunson must be getting senile that he forgot to play that way.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, does this mean Johnny Chan and Phil Hellmuth are the second and third best poker players of all time? And Bill Baxter is fourth?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not. Phil Hellmuth isn't qualified to carry Doyle's crutch.

The fact that Doyle has ten bracelets is just part of the evidence of his greatness, in addition to the fact that he has been playing poker successfully at the highest levels for decades and is still winnning and final tabling big field tournaments when he is over 70 years old.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
How is criticizing someone's play disrespecting him?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't. You need to reread what I wrote. It's fine to criticize his play of these hands, but calling him a donkey is out of line.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
In any tournament I have played in standard short stack play near the bubble or in the money is to fold until you are blinded out, moving up in places. Brunson must be getting senile that he forgot to play that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL Yeah, that's the way to play if you're a fish.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
he doesn't know how to play NLHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

As evidenced by the fact that he is still winning NLHE tournaments at his age, huh?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he doesn't know how to play NLHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

As evidenced by the fact that he is still winning NLHE tournaments at his age, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone can get lucky.

[kylewa10]

[ QUOTE ]
He is an OK HORSE player, but he doesn't know how to play NLHE. The change in games really hurt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what does that make the rest of us?

[Five-Star]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he doesn't know how to play NLHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

As evidenced by the fact that he is still winning NLHE tournaments at his age, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone can get lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

How bad did the doctor say the brain damage was?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is an OK HORSE player, but he doesn't know how to play NLHE. The change in games really hurt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what does that make the rest of us?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, I know he wrote some book on NLHE. His advice seems real reckless. Doesn't work in the live 1/2 game I play in. Better to wait for big hands.

[BigPoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
He is an OK HORSE player, but he doesn't know how to play NLHE. The change in games really hurt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just reading this makes my eyes hurt.

[BigPoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
In any tournament I have played in standard short stack play near the bubble or in the money is to fold until you are blinded out, moving up in places. Brunson must be getting senile that he forgot to play that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I finally figured out that you're joking.


Oh, please let him be joking.

[TruePoker CEO]

Thanks for the advice, I'll go with you instead of Doyle when it comes to NLHE ...

I'll be at the Rio later this week, any chance you can school me in a game ?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the advice, I'll go with you instead of Doyle when it comes to NLHE ...

I'll be at the Rio later this week, any chance you can school me in a game ?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have time for private lessons, but I have written the definitive guide to NLHE tournament play (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3332524&an=&page=&vc=1)

[Sadat X]

Doyle is one of the all-time greatest poker players, maybe the best ever in terms of what he did for the game. He made the top 5% of arguably the strongest field of all-time, and petty much no one was surprised.

That being said, his play in the last hand was bizzare, not that he left 8K behind after the flop, moreso that he chose to play J6 after a raise and a call. I'd probably be content to fold and try to pick up something decent the next orbit and make a stand.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Doyle is one of the all-time greatest poker players, maybe the best ever in terms of what he did for the game. He made the top 5% of arguably the strongest field of all-time, and petty much no one was surprised.

That being said, his play in the last hand was bizzare, not that he left 8K behind after the flop, moreso that he chose to play J6 after a raise and a call. I'd probably be content to fold and try to pick up something decent the next orbit and make a stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I gather he was in the BB and there was a fairly large ante. He was probably getting significant pot odds.

"Those oft are strategems which errors seem, nor is it Homer nods, but we who dream." -- Alexander Pope, Essay on Criticism


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1835666
pokenum -h js 6d - ah ks - tc td
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 6d 258086 18.83 1109715 80.96 2953 0.22 0.189
Ks Ah 539253 39.34 828548 60.44 2953 0.22 0.394
Tc Td 570462 41.62 797339 58.17 2953 0.22 0.417

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably be content to fold and try to pick up something decent the next orbit and make a stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but you are not the same level of player as Doyle Brunson. When you have 4xBB, the priority is not waiting for a decent hand.

[sobefuddled]

OMG I just read this. It's hysterical! Thank you. I needed that laugh.

[prohornblower]

Who is Doyle Brunson and why is there a thread on him?

Is he some up-and-coming internet punk? A charter member of the Crew? I'm lost. Is he related to Todd Brunson? Is Todd his dad or something?

[Maple Leafs]

[ QUOTE ]
Is he some up-and-coming internet punk? A charter member of the Crew? I'm lost. Is he related to Todd Brunson? Is Todd his dad or something?

[/ QUOTE ]
No relation. He's just paying tribute to Todd by using his name. Sort of like the Von Erichs. It's a Texas thing.

[BigSoonerFan]

[ QUOTE ]
these are poker live reports so accuracy isn't their strong point. And as far as I know Brunson hasn't gone senile. I say no way he CALLS allin with J high no pair no draw (unless he had like ~1-2BB left)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what he had and was getting 26-1 pot odds.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In any tournament I have played in standard short stack play near the bubble or in the money is to fold until you are blinded out, moving up in places. Brunson must be getting senile that he forgot to play that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I finally figured out that you're joking.


Oh, please let him be joking.

[/ QUOTE ]

People see a play by Doyle Brunson that they don't understand. Rather than trying to learn why he made the play, they say Doyle Brunson made a donk play. That's confidence. It probably is also one of the things that makes poker profitable.

[mattmcegg]

[ QUOTE ]
In any tournament I have played in standard short stack play near the bubble or in the money is to fold until you are blinded out, moving up in places. Brunson must be getting senile that he forgot to play that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

sacrasm meter.... going awry .. cant ... decided ....whats real and whats a joke

[Lawman007]

As Nath pointed out, my sarcasm meter is all shot to hell. Does anyone know where I can pick up a new one cheap?

[JohnnyFX]

At this point they really need to build one into the site. If they don't have the technology/programming skills necessary (maybe call Paul Phillips?), they need to have the mods do it manually. A little graphic above each post (10 stars perhaps?) would work nicely.

(Edited for spelling)

[Russ M.]

This entire thread is a litmus test to weed out the people who aren't too gud at the internets. Congrats to lawman007 for finally getting it! TUBES! JUST A SERIES OF TUBES!

[Howard Treesong]

I'll give you a hint: he had nine tackles for losses in 1995.

[Rianna]

Disrespecting Doyle by calling him, referring to him as Donkey, you can start there.

[betgo]

I ran J6o on PokerStove versus typical ranges for a limping hand and a raising hand. I get about 18%. There was some chance the limping would fold to the raise or one player would bet out the other after the flop. The raiser's range may e weaker than this.

Presumably Brunson had just over 4xBB before posting. So he was putting in 3 BB and the total pot was 14 BB. So he was putting in 21% of the money.

It seems like a pretty close gamble in terms of cEV. It is 4-1 he is out of the tournament if he loses, but he has chances to win the whole thing if he wins the hand.

If he folds, he has 3xBB in SB and is likely going to be in a similar situation. If he folds there he has about 2.4 x BB on the button, 2.2 x BB in CO, and so on as he gets anted down.

I would probably have folded here, but it is close. At this stage, you are looking for a situation as much as a hand and you have to go allin sometime real soon.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

11,482,470 games 29.922 secs 383,746 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 17.8577 % 17.54% 00.32% { J6o }
Hand 2: 51.5832 % 50.47% 01.12% { 99+, AJs+, AQo+ }
Hand 3: 30.5591 % 29.37% 01.19% { KK+, TT-22, AQs-A9s, QTs+, AQo-ATo, KJo+ }

[Snoh84]

I was at the final table for Doyle's last hand, and I'll tell you what I saw from my perspective.

As is often the case, the last hand is not what you should be focusing on, but rather the big hands that led up to that hand.

Doyle entered the day 2nd in chips and made a huge laydown to Chip Reese where he lost a sizeable amount of his chips. We don't know the cards, but Doyle said he laid down a big hand because he read Chip for strength. Chip later said after he won that he picked up KK against Brunson in that situation. I don't think Chip has any incentive to lie here after the event is over and the hand is going to be shown on TV anyway, so to Doyle, nice read. Here's the hand as reported on CP:

37. Doyle Brunson raises to $70,000 from under the gun. Chip Reese makes the call as does David Singer from the button. The flop comes 7spade3heart2club and Brunson bets $220,000. Reese raises to $440,000 and Singer folds. Brunson thinks for a few moments before folding his hand. Reese rakes the pot.


Throughout the day, this situation repeated itself, with Doyle losing big pots after laying down his hand or losing big coinflips (He lost a huge coinflip all-in to T.J holding KJ against 99).

On the last hand, Doyle was in the BB. There was already 27k in antes + 65k raise from Singer + 65k call from Bechtel + 20k BB = 157k. It cost Doyle 45k to call, giving him about 3.5:1 on his money. If he folds here, he has 80k, or 4 big blinds left.

On the flop, Doyle was facing a bet-raise and action was to him. He knew he was dead, but he had 8k left in a side pot that would have over 300k. Blinds were 10k/20k with a 3k ante. How can he fold here?

Doyle actually took about half a minute to think about his hand, chuckled, and tossed his chips in, knowing he was dead. He had a big smile on his face and was a little sheepish in showing his hand after Singer folded and both players showed. You'll see the hand on TV.

[CaryDarling]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He is an OK HORSE player, but he doesn't know how to play NLHE. The change in games really hurt him.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what does that make the rest of us?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, I know he wrote some book on NLHE. His advice seems real reckless. Doesn't work in the live 1/2 game I play in. Better to wait for big hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL the book wasn't written for 1/2 NL with a capped buy in, it was written for true NL. A game where you can buy in at any amount covering the rest of the table, then pushing them around, putting them to the test at every possible moment.

[CaryDarling]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is he some up-and-coming internet punk? A charter member of the Crew? I'm lost. Is he related to Todd Brunson? Is Todd his dad or something?

[/ QUOTE ]
No relation. He's just paying tribute to Todd by using his name. Sort of like the Von Erichs. It's a Texas thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL @ Von Erichs
<<<Born and raised in Fort Worth
Grew up watching the Von Erichs take on the Freebirds...so sad about them tho'. They are like the Kennedy's of Wrestling. So much success, and so much tragedy...LOL...thanks for bringing up some great memories.

[55Darryl]

[ QUOTE ]
I was at the final table for Doyle's last hand, and I'll tell you what I saw from my perspective.

As is often the case, the last hand is not what you should be focusing on, but rather the big hands that led up to that hand.

Doyle entered the day 2nd in chips and made a huge laydown to Chip Reese where he lost a sizeable amount of his chips. We don't know the cards, but Doyle said he laid down a big hand because he read Chip for strength. Chip later said after he won that he picked up KK against Brunson in that situation. I don't think Chip has any incentive to lie here after the event is over and the hand is going to be shown on TV anyway, so to Doyle, nice read. Here's the hand as reported on CP:

37. Doyle Brunson raises to $70,000 from under the gun. Chip Reese makes the call as does David Singer from the button. The flop comes 7spade3heart2club and Brunson bets $220,000. Reese raises to $440,000 and Singer folds. Brunson thinks for a few moments before folding his hand. Reese rakes the pot.


Throughout the day, this situation repeated itself, with Doyle losing big pots after laying down his hand or losing big coinflips (He lost a huge coinflip all-in to T.J holding KJ against 99).

On the last hand, Doyle was in the BB. There was already 27k in antes + 65k raise from Singer + 65k call from Bechtel + 20k BB = 157k. It cost Doyle 45k to call, giving him about 3.5:1 on his money. If he folds here, he has 80k, or 4 big blinds left.

On the flop, Doyle was facing a bet-raise and action was to him. He knew he was dead, but he had 8k left in a side pot that would have over 300k. Blinds were 10k/20k with a 3k ante. How can he fold here?

Doyle actually took about half a minute to think about his hand, chuckled, and tossed his chips in, knowing he was dead. He had a big smile on his face and was a little sheepish in showing his hand after Singer folded and both players showed. You'll see the hand on TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there are no implications here that Doyle dumped. But keep this in mind. Doyle knows he has one maybe two WSOP's left. He went all that a way. A grueling 3 days. He isn't about to get that close to his record 11th WSOP bracelet especially in a historic tournament of that magnitude and not be trying his hardest to win it.

As you said... we'll see in on TV.


RazzO

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was at the final table for Doyle's last hand, and I'll tell you what I saw from my perspective.

As is often the case, the last hand is not what you should be focusing on, but rather the big hands that led up to that hand.

Doyle entered the day 2nd in chips and made a huge laydown to Chip Reese where he lost a sizeable amount of his chips. We don't know the cards, but Doyle said he laid down a big hand because he read Chip for strength. Chip later said after he won that he picked up KK against Brunson in that situation. I don't think Chip has any incentive to lie here after the event is over and the hand is going to be shown on TV anyway, so to Doyle, nice read. Here's the hand as reported on CP:

37. Doyle Brunson raises to $70,000 from under the gun. Chip Reese makes the call as does David Singer from the button. The flop comes 7spade3heart2club and Brunson bets $220,000. Reese raises to $440,000 and Singer folds. Brunson thinks for a few moments before folding his hand. Reese rakes the pot.


Throughout the day, this situation repeated itself, with Doyle losing big pots after laying down his hand or losing big coinflips (He lost a huge coinflip all-in to T.J holding KJ against 99).

On the last hand, Doyle was in the BB. There was already 27k in antes + 65k raise from Singer + 65k call from Bechtel + 20k BB = 157k. It cost Doyle 45k to call, giving him about 3.5:1 on his money. If he folds here, he has 80k, or 4 big blinds left.

On the flop, Doyle was facing a bet-raise and action was to him. He knew he was dead, but he had 8k left in a side pot that would have over 300k. Blinds were 10k/20k with a 3k ante. How can he fold here?

Doyle actually took about half a minute to think about his hand, chuckled, and tossed his chips in, knowing he was dead. He had a big smile on his face and was a little sheepish in showing his hand after Singer folded and both players showed. You'll see the hand on TV.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure there are no implications here that Doyle dumped. But keep this in mind. Doyle knows he has one maybe two WSOP's left. He went all that a way. A grueling 3 days. He isn't about to get that close to his record 11th WSOP bracelet especially in a historic tournament of that magnitude and not be trying his hardest to win it.

As you said... we'll see in on TV.


RazzO

[/ QUOTE ]

He was getting 3.5-1 3-way with J6o. He probably thought there was some chance that the limper would fold to the raise, in which case he gets 2.5-1 HU. If the limper reraises and the raiser folds, Brunson gets 3.5-1 HU. At this level, there is an excellent chance the limper will reraise or fold, rather than limp/call.

If Brunson folds, he may have to make a similar play with 4xBB in the SB. He could fold there and look to play a hand in late position with 3-3.5xBB. However, he would not have enough chips to steal the blinds.

I probably would fold here, but it is very close.

I am amazed at the know it all attitude of people who think Brunson made a fish play. Some donks don't understand odds and will criticize any play made with marginal cards late in a tournament.

They used to allow observer chat late in Party's big $200+ buyin tournaments and there were all these fish criticizing every standard play someone made. Like stealing and restealling with marginal hands, isolation plays, squeeze plays, and stone bluffs and semibluffs after the flop.

A good player doesn't just say I have J6o late the tournament so I fold. You have to play the situation.

You guys really think Brunson made an incredibly bad play because he called allin with marginal cards and you know better?

[testaaja]

[ QUOTE ]
these are poker live reports so accuracy isn't their strong point. And as far as I know Brunson hasn't gone senile. I say no way he CALLS allin with J high no pair no draw (unless he had like ~1-2BB left)

[/ QUOTE ]
You obviously haven't seen high stakes poker, have you?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
these are poker live reports so accuracy isn't their strong point. And as far as I know Brunson hasn't gone senile. I say no way he CALLS allin with J high no pair no draw (unless he had like ~1-2BB left)

[/ QUOTE ]
You obviously haven't seen high stakes poker, have you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Brunson had less than 1/2xBB left on the flop. He presumably didn't go allin preflop because doing so would have increased the chance that the players would check it down.

[amulet]

i was there he was short stacked and getting a great price