$10/20 Stud 8/b - Three-bet fifth street?

[ColdCaller]

7 Card Stud High-Low ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter (http://www.geocities.com/greenage22/7StudConverter.htm))

3rd Street - (0.80 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif___completes
Seat 4: xx xx 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif___folds
Seat 6: xx xx T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 6/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds

4th Street - (3.80 SB)

Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets
Seat 3: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___calls

5th Street - (3.40 BB)

Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets___raises
Seat 3: xx xx A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif___raises___calls

6th Street - (9.40 BB)

Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls

River - (11.40 BB)

Hero: 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif xx___calls

Total pot: (13.40 BB)

Results:
Main Pot: $265 | Rake: $3

Hero: [ 4d Ah 2s 5s 2d 6d 3s ] [ LO: 5,4,3,2,A | HI: a straight, two to six -- 6d,5s,4d,3s,2s ]

Seat 7: [ 6s 7c 8d 2c 6h Kd 3c ] [ LO: 8,7,6,3,2 | HI: a pair of sixes -- Kd,8d,7c,6s,6h ]

My opponent is one of the biggest losers in the $10/20 game based on PT Stud data and previous experiences over the past six months have led me to believe that the data is indeed conclusive.

When he raises on fifth, is he really doing it with a terribly scary eight-low? Three-betting here to maintain control in the hand seems correct, inflating the pot to tie him to a hand and ensure I'll get a call down from worse lows and mediocre high hands (I just didn't know how mediocre it actually was this time around!).

So, three-bet on fifth, everyone?

[mscags]

I three bet this with out a second thought.

[ColdCaller]

[ QUOTE ]
I three bet this with out a second thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured as much. I paused for a second, but in my mind I knew it was an auto three-bet. Not sure what pausing was going to make the opponent think, but I figured why not do something different.

Oh, and I just got buried with wired kings. I hate you.

[bigredlemon]

If you think he's made a low then I see no reason to 3bet 5th. You he has tons of cards to beat your high with and you still have to hit you low. There's no chance for you buy a free card since you must act first. You'll only get to check behind if he hits an open overpair, which is very bad news for you anyway.


I just ran some numbers and came up with this. Basically, he's probably ahead or tied, and needs a very bad hand to be behind. Unless he's a complete donk you gain nothing by raising.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1475928
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 4d ah 2s 5s 2d - 8d 2c 6h 4c 5c / as 9d jh 9h 3h td
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 4d 2d Ah 109634 206089 293206 705 239698 51211 8038 0.450
5c 4c 2c 8d 6h 159814 293206 206089 705 252264 239698 8038 0.550

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1475930
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 4d ah 2s 5s 2d - 8d 2c 6h 4c 6c / as 9d jh 9h 3h td
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 4d 2d Ah 142239 198346 301611 43 271069 9128 484 0.503
6c 4c 2c 8d 6h 138790 301611 198346 43 134959 146344 484 0.497

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1475933
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 4d ah 2s 5s 2d - 8d 2c 6h 4c 3c / as 9d jh 9h 3h td
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 4d 2d Ah 122986 276732 222590 678 219836 59715 553 0.497
4c 3c 2c 8d 6h 125839 222590 276732 678 279611 219836 553 0.503

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1475935
pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 4d ah 2s 5s 2d - 8d 2c 6h 4c 7c / as 9d jh 9h 3h td
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
5s 2s 4d 2d Ah 138341 273788 226195 17 252522 27555 771 0.527
7c 4c 2c 8d 6h 111260 226195 273788 17 246707 252522 771 0.473

[ColdCaller]

This three-bet is not wholly about EV, it is about maintaining the betting lead, knowing that he will pay off if I catch good, and adding a ton of deception to my hand. If I check on sixth and he catches high, it's entirely possible that he'll give me a free card (he's not a very bright player).

[mscags]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and I just got buried with wired kings. I hate you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome lol.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I three bet this with out a second thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

I figured as much. I paused for a second, but in my mind I knew it was an auto three-bet. Not sure what pausing was going to make the opponent think, but I figured why not do something different.

Oh, and I just got buried with wired kings. I hate you.

[/ QUOTE ]

3 bet, certainly.

Tell me, though. Do you guys do well playing big pairs online? I don't play online and don't care for big pairs when I play S/8. I'm just wondering if they do better for you than they've done for me live.

Tx.

[mscags]

Big pairs blow

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
This three-bet is not wholly about EV, it is about maintaining the betting lead, knowing that he will pay off if I catch good, and adding a ton of deception to my hand. If I check on sixth and he catches high, it's entirely possible that he'll give me a free card (he's not a very bright player).

[/ QUOTE ]If you brick 6th, then he would have a board lock for low. If he's not smart enough to realize this, I don't think he's smart enough to think about checking at all. Their thinking process is probably something along the lines of: Can find bet button? --> will use it. If you didn't pair your door card then I see a lot of value in 3 betting. If seat 3 going high hasn't yet folded then I can see a lot of value in raising. Here, you're basically betting hoping that he hasn't made a low to raise you with and that either he'll fold his better pair or you out draw him.

[Alchemist]

[ QUOTE ]
Big pairs blow

[/ QUOTE ]

[Songwind]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me, though. Do you guys do well playing big pairs online? I don't play online and don't care for big pairs when I play S/8. I'm just wondering if they do better for you than they've done for me live.

Tx.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an almost complete Stud/8 noob. However, I haven't had bad luck with big pairs. I do throw them away unless there are no lows out, only one low out, or maybe 2 but none lower than 7 showing. Kings, Aces and queens seem to improve often enough to win the high frequently, and it really only takes a bad catch or two for a 7-low to turn into a steaming pile.

[ColdCaller]

[ QUOTE ]
Tell me, though. Do you guys do well playing big pairs online? I don't play online and don't care for big pairs when I play S/8. I'm just wondering if they do better for you than they've done for me live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, they are better when they are wired and not split. For example, if you have (KK)4 and hit another K or perhaps two pair (or catch running low cards), you're going to get called down frequently by busted three-low draws that hit a pair that don't realize which direction you are going.

But in general your instincts are correct - big pairs suck. Unless you are mscags.