What about money laundering??

[NY60]

Although I am strongly opposed to the legislation passed today by our House of Representatives, I have not heard anyone on our side addressing the concerns of the proponents of the bill such as money laundering for terrorists groups...I for one cannot just summarily dismiss these arguments without first eductaing myself on the truth of these allegations. I would hate for all of us to find ourselves in a position to get exactly what we asked for.

Can anyone shed any light on this issue...

[disjunction]

Off of the top of my head:

(1) This is a big-time argument for REGULATION, to keep the online casinos in the U.S.
(2) It's super-inefficient
(3) I'm not sure how you could even do it. Player to player transfer? Don't the sites monitor questionable activity? On the tables? There are about a zillion witnesses on the lookout for shady behavior. In any case, any suspicious activity should be super-apparent to the casinos, which are regulated by other countries. Party poker is a British company, no?
(4) Some financial guy could probably answer the question easier, but I suspect there are just a zillion easier ways to do it.
(5) If bad people are really laundering money this way, it's probably a *good* thing, because it should be easy to monitor them.

[mrhat187]

How can you shed light on the issue when it doesn't exist? Hell I could say Mcdonalds launders money for terrorists in Pakistan you believe me? Or how about Coke actually laundering money for Coke dealers you believe me? I have no proof but neither do they have proof to the contrary, so that makes it believable right?

[bobbyi]

The major sites try to self-police to look for cases of obvious money laundering ("chip dumping") and stop it. However, there are so many small casinos and cardrooms online that I am sure that if someone wanted to do it they could do it. Money laundering through B&M casinos has been always a problem and there are laws now to make it much harder, so it is pretty understandable that Congress does not trust every tiny online casino in the Carribean to be catching everything.

However, there is a big difference between the idea that casinos (online or not) can be used to launder money and the idea that the casinos themselves somehow support terrorism and when Joe American loses some money playing blackjack online he is somehow funding terorrists, which is absurd.

[NY60]

I dont think the issue is player to player transfer so much as it is terrorist sponsorship of the gambling site itself. I guess I am looking for some type of verification of who owns the sites that a person may play on??

[NY60]

Ok ...why is that absurd??

[NY60]

[ QUOTE ]
However, there is a big difference between the idea that casinos (online or not) can be used to launder money and the idea that the casinos themselves somehow support terrorism and when Joe American loses some money playing blackjack online he is somehow funding terorrists, which is absurd.



[/ QUOTE ]

How does one know who owns the site??

[disjunction]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think the issue is player to player transfer so much as it is terrorist sponsorship of the gambling site itself. I guess I am looking for some type of verification of who owns the sites that a person may play on??

[/ QUOTE ]

Sites are pretty large and is a very managable number. You can argue this for any foreign corporation that does business with America.

[tipperdog]

NY60,

Money laundering is a legitimate concern. However, I'd submit that it's a far more serious concern for B&M casinos, for several reasons.

1. Constant "in-and-out" deposit/withdrawals are rare for online pokerrooms. In a B&M casino, some guy can buy $10K chips at the BJ table, play for 10 mins, and then cash out at the cage without attracting much attention. Then, he can walk next door to the next casino and do the same thing. Try that for a few consecutive days online and you'll be flagged. Remember, online casinos pay $$ when you make transactions. If they think you're "using" them as a pass-through, they will stop you.

2. Because of the difficulty in moving $$ around, there's a much larger "paper trail" online. In a B&M casino, you often don't have to show ID to make big transactions. Think of all the accounts you need to pass-through online! Think like a drug dealer for a minute--if you had 100K to launder, wouldn't it be about 1 million times easier to do in Vegas?

So, should we ban internet gambling because of the chance it could be used as a laundering vehicle? Of course not. In fact, isn't that risk an argument for regulation?

[Cair Paravel]

Have any examples of people doing this been cited?

I think the money laundering argument is weak. There are plenty of better, less regulated, and faster ways to hide money than through online poker sites which usually limit the amount of money you can withdraw at a time. If you're dumb enough to rely on an online casino to launder money, you're probably not too much of a danger.

[Sponger.]

http://www.onlinegamblingmythsandfacts.com/money.htm

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Because of the difficulty in moving $$ around, there's a much larger "paper trail" online.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, the paper trail is the whole point. Having records of the money you received coming into your bank account from an online casino is how you make it appear to have been received "legitimately" (as gambling winnings) rather than as payment for dealing drugs or blowing something up. If there was no trail, then how would you be laundering the money? That would be the equivalent of giving someone a briefcase full of cash.

[Sponger.]

I heard Mohamed Atta used to play 10/20 6max on party.

[tipperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because of the difficulty in moving $$ around, there's a much larger "paper trail" online.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, the paper trail is the whole point. Having records of the money you received coming into your bank account from an online casino is how you make it appear to have been received "legitimately" (as gambling winnings) rather than as payment for dealing drugs or blowing something up. If there was no trail, then how would you be laundering the money? That would be the equivalent of giving someone a briefcase full of cash.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I think you miss my point. I gather you've never laundered money before. /images/graemlins/grin.gif In a Vegas-evironment you can launder $$ without ever showing ID on a cash-to-cash basis. Say you have $100K in "dirty" cash, you spend a day in Vegas cashing it in in $9K chunks and then go home. No records; no ID-checks; no nuthin' The same exercise online leaves a highly traceable trail. Not what a typical criminal is looking for.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Say you have $100K in "dirty" cash, you spend a day in Vegas cashing it in in $9K chunks and then go home. No records; no ID-checks; no nuthin' The same exercise online leaves a highly traceable trail. Not what a typical criminal is looking for.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm not following. You started with $100k in cash that you could not legally account for. At the end you still have $100k in cash that you can't legally account for. What have you accomplished? If this is just about the physical bills potentially being sequential/ marked, then that seems separate from the sort of laundering that is a concern with online casinos and isn't even meaningful in the context of depostiting/ withdrawing money online.

[Cair Paravel]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.onlinegamblingmythsandfacts.com/money.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

Great link. Too bad no pertinent person seems to pay attention to those facts.

[Bilgefisher]

This is the type of crap that makes me mad. Money laundering, are you friggin kidding me. This is just a scare tactic to get people to vote for this bill.

I will NOT give up my rights just so we protect a few. The terrorist have won as soon as we do that.

[Bilgefisher]

Good link. And I agree with the other reply, most people won't read into the logic. They just want the tabloid version to get hesterical about. Thank god we don't have a push button democracy.

[TruePoker CEO]

Well, I own one.

A lot of other sites are owned by public corporations.

The moneylaundering "issue" is complete and utter horse [censored]. NO online poker site I know of takes cash. There is a paper trail for evry dollar that is deposited.

B & M casinos operate under Reg6A for cash transactions. That doesn't even arise, where, as in online poker, there is no handling of cash.

No one has come up with any actual laundering activity, only a theoretical argument it could happen .... as if that argument were unique to online gaming, but not applicable to eBay or Paypal .... the ultimate hypocrites in this area.