Easy 10/20 hand?

[MichaelOar]

Comments?

7 Card Stud High ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter (http://j.1asphost.com/greenage))

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___folds
Seat 3: xx xx A/images/graemlins/club.gif___folds
Seat 4: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/club.gif___completes___calls
Hero: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif___raises
Seat 7: xx xx Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (7.00 SB)

Seat 4: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif___checks___calls
Hero: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif___bets

5th Street - (5.00 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif___calls
Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif___bets___calls
Hero: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif___raises

6th Street - (11.00 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 5: xx xx J/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif
Hero: K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif

[frappeboy]

I like the way you played the whole hand. You've just gotta re-raise 3rd. The raise on 5th is a standard play, as long as you were planning to check 6th street unimproved.

6th street really sucks, Seat 4 called 2 bets cold and now he caught a disaster card. As long as hes a reasonable player, I think you need to check/fold 6th street. I really really really REALLY hate folding 6th street with so much money in the pot, but I think this is one of those situations where you gotta do it if he bets, unless hes a very loose player.

If you hadn't raised 5th I would be more inclined to call that bet since you didn't make him define his hand as much. When he calls 2 bets cold it tells me he has 1 of 2 things here, a 4 flush, or a pair of aces. Given the action, the 4 flush is much more likely. If he has aces here, you'll be making a mistake by folding 6th street, but I don't think most reasonable players bet 6th street with just aces since seat 5 has a pair on board. So my suggestion is check/folding 6th. If seat 5 leads out you really should fold since you're probably gonna get raised behind you.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the way you played the whole hand. You've just gotta re-raise 3rd. The raise on 5th is a standard play, as long as you were planning to check 6th street unimproved.

6th street really sucks, Seat 4 called 2 bets cold and now he caught a disaster card. As long as hes a reasonable player, I think you need to check/fold 6th street. I really really really REALLY hate folding 6th street with so much money in the pot, but I think this is one of those situations where you gotta do it if he bets, unless hes a very loose player.

If you hadn't raised 5th I would be more inclined to call that bet since you didn't make him define his hand as much. When he calls 2 bets cold it tells me he has 1 of 2 things here, a 4 flush, or a pair of aces. Given the action, the 4 flush is much more likely. If he has aces here, you'll be making a mistake by folding 6th street, but I don't think most reasonable players bet 6th street with just aces since seat 5 has a pair on board. So my suggestion is check/folding 6th. If seat 5 leads out you really should fold since you're probably gonna get raised behind you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That about sums it up. Excellent analysis.

[Andy B]

I'm not crazy about the raise on fifth street. I think that the A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif guy's most likely hand is a flush draw, and he's not folding that. It's uncomfortable, but I think your best play is to call and hope. Sixth looks like a fold.

[MRBAA]

IMHO, this is really bad advice. You are head up. You probably don't have the best hand, and if you do it's not by much. Call on fifth, call on sixth and, against a known timid player fold to a bet on river unimproved. Raising fifth with one overpair, then folding when opponent catches a flush card is ridiculous, tricky poker. Play solid, think about a range of holdings for the player and try to get your money in when there's a reasonable chance you have the best hand or you have some folding equity.

[frappeboy]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, this is really bad advice. You are head up. You probably don't have the best hand, and if you do it's not by much. Call on fifth, call on sixth and, against a known timid player fold to a bet on river unimproved. Raising fifth with one overpair, then folding when opponent catches a flush card is ridiculous, tricky poker. Play solid, think about a range of holdings for the player and try to get your money in when there's a reasonable chance you have the best hand or you have some folding equity.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great Analysis, that about sums it up.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, this is really bad advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can an opinion like this be humble?

In my opinion, MRBAA, your opinion will be more valued when you post some of your own 10/20 or 20/40 hands.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
How can an opinion like this be humble?

In my opinion, MRBAA, your opinion will be more valued when you post some of your own 10/20 or 20/40 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This response is aka "The limits define your skill and Mike Emery thinks I play good so I'm complete."

I disagree with MRBAA also and think frappe was spot on in his analysis. But this "Shut up unless you post $20-40 handsetc" is BS. Anyone who's played $10-20 stud & higher, and I have, knows there's just as many fools at those limits as there is at $1-2. They just have more disposable income than the others. Lighten up on the limit BS. The difference between $5-10 live and $20-40 is not that big.

[benwood]

Quote:"The difference between $5-10 live and 20-40 live is not that big.

" Amen,brother.I have been playing 20/40 most days for quite a while(hi/lo),& although I beat the game a little,it's only because the game is loaded with bad players.There's plenty of posters here who play 1/2,3/6,&5/10 who play way better than me,& I know it.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can an opinion like this be humble?

In my opinion, MRBAA, your opinion will be more valued when you post some of your own 10/20 or 20/40 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This response is aka "The limits define your skill and Mike Emery thinks I play good so I'm complete."

I disagree with MRBAA also and think frappe was spot on in his analysis. But this "Shut up unless you post $20-40 handsetc" is BS. Anyone who's played $10-20 stud & higher, and I have, knows there's just as many fools at those limits as there is at $1-2. They just have more disposable income than the others. Lighten up on the limit BS. The difference between $5-10 live and $20-40 is not that big.

[/ QUOTE ]

Coupla things... Frappeboy's an excellent player and poster, and we're lucky to get his advice. I've played a lot with him, and know how well he plays. He's one of the top stud players on party. Period.

I don't appreciate someone who occasionally plays online, never posts an online hand, and rarely plays higher than 3/6 online saying Frappe's advice is terrible. Quite frankly, it [censored] pisses me off.

MRBAA's been around this forum for awhile, and is known for trashing other's advice, while having little playing experience at their levels. The stakes, and experience a person plays at are important. It doesn't say everything, but it says something. The hand in question is a 10/20 hand, and mrbaa admittedly currently sits at the 2/4 tables.

If there were as many fools at 10/20 as their are at 1/2, none of us would ever have to work again. There are weak players, and the occasional idiot, but, in general to say that games get tougher as stakes rise is an accurate statement.

In closing, just realize that my comments were initiated by the fact that mrbaa was such a dick in his post. I think that the stakes a person plays matters. (Assuming he's a winner.) When I post a hand, I'd really like for every poster to respond to it. But, I'd also like for posters to be respectful of one another. And I'd be a little upset if a poster who's battling at the .5/1 tables on Stars told Carlos or Jeff, they just gave some terrible advice to that post, in particular if that poster had a reputation of never showing any tact...

Is that more understandable?

[Andy B]

I've been known to go months without posting a hand, and I don't play high-only stud higher than $6/12 very often.

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been known to go months without posting a hand, and I don't play high-only stud higher than $6/12 very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

1.) when you do post hand's, they're awesome.
2.) When you respond to posts, you're always cool.
3.) That's why you're our moderator.
4.) They had 30/60 stud 8 running at foxwoods yesterday!

[Andy B]

It's not heads-up on fifth street. There is a third player. I would like the raise on fifth if he thought that the third player would fold. I just don't think he's going to fold.

[lstream]

I think posters at all stakes have sound advice to offer. I agree with Beer that Frappe is a terrific stud player, and also capable of very succinct hand analyis. I am sure glad when he comments on my hand posts.

Onto my real point:
[ QUOTE ]
If there were as many fools at 10/20 as their are at 1/2, none of us would ever have to work again. There are weak players, and the occasional idiot, but, in general to say that games get tougher as stakes rise is an accurate statement.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have played from 3/6 and up to 10/20 although my 10/20 experience is somewhat limited. I found the transistion from 3/6 to 5/10 to be pretty easy. However, from what I can tell the move from 5/10 to 10/20 is an entirely different story. 10/20 has some poor players, but on average, the quality is way higher than at the other stakes. I think it is a big mistake to pretend this level is as simple to beat as the ones leading up to it.

[frappeboy]

I appreciate the support BeerMoney/lstream/SA125. I usually just shrug of MRBAA's posts with a funny comment or just don't respond altogether, but I am really getting sick of it. I don't claim to be the best player in the world, but I made enough money last year playing 5-10 on partypoker to pay my mortgage and all my bills, so the plays I make can't be that horrible.

It's sad that he criticize my post, and then he can't even read the hand history correctly and thinks the pot is heads up. If you're gonna criticize my play, then please, do your homework and make some sense. If you make a good point about the hand I'll admit it and we'll all benefit from it. Otherwise, please keep it to yourself.

[Andy B]

If I had known that $30/60 stud/8 was a possibility, I would have made more of an effort to get to Foxwoods when I was in Connecticut.

[benwood]

For clarification,let me make sure that I'm understood on 2 points.

(1)It is true that games get tougher as the stakes go up.It is also true that there are many good low level players.This can easily be seen by the posts here.

(2)From what I have seen of Frappe's posts,he is one of our best players & I have learned a lot from his astute hand analyasis.

Quote:"I disagree with MRBAA also and think frappe was spot on in his analysis." Right on!

[MRBAA]

My bad -- I did misread the post. I assume the raise on fifth was a k/o effort against the third player and it's a much better play given that.

I'm sorry that saying something was "bad advice" is taken as such a horrible insult -- note that it was followed by a specific criticism of said advice and alternative strategy. That's what we do here,right?

I don't want to come of as a braggart, but I really do crush the 2-4 games. If you extrapolate my results to playing 30 hours a week, I could earn a living (albeit not a very good one) 3-tabling 2-4. I've played 10-20 live and I think the proportion of good players does go up as you play higher. But I'm pretty confident my skills are as good as just about anyone who posts here, except for Jeff.

I'm really a nice guy, honest. I've written a poker book that has sold 50,000 copies this year, so some one must think my advice has value. (Granted, it's on hold'em).

Based on $$ results at low limits over years of time, I really do play good. 2+2ers who have played stud or he live with me generally think so, too. So you might want to at least give my posts a little more benefit of the doubt.

For example, the post I put up about not folding too often a week or so back is advice I think could be helpful to a lot of low limit players.

Remember also that I don't usually respond just to say "I agree". So if it seems I'm argumentative, it's because I choose to respond to posts only mostly when I think I have something different to add.

Oh and one more thing: relax.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
10/20 has some poor players, but on average, the quality is way higher than at the other stakes. I think it is a big mistake to pretend this level is as simple to beat as the ones leading up to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things. First is I thought Frappe's analysis of the hand was so good it was a thread killer. I was actually going to say it in my response to his post.

Second is the limits. I play 30-60 live and the good players there can be very good. But there are also some awful players. You'll always be suprised at how bad some players are at the next level.

I've learned that people play the limits they have the roll for, both pros and tourists. I played 20-40 live holdem the other day with a guy who didn't know what a chop or time pot was. Happens all the time. Chops you learn at 2-4 and time pots at 10-20. This guy had the roll for 20-40 so that's where he sat.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I bashed MRBAA in a post of his saying it was bad advice. He got reemed here because he doesn't post 10-20 or 20-40 hands and I jumped in. Not my business. Will never happen again. GL. Happy New Year.

[lstream]

SA125 - I should have mentioned that I have no experience at live play at all, other than kitchen games. My comments only apply to on-line play which could be entirely different than live.