By the book or by feel?

[CallYNotRaise06]

I read 2 articles today in old cardplayer magazines. One was about Layne flack, the other Tuan Lee, they were great reads... The one thing that stood out between the two articles was the fact that they both said theyve read maby 1 poker book in their entire life.

in Flacks article he says,"I dont read books. I dont want to change my style, I dont want to be influenced by what other do or say. I dont discuss hands with other people. I do things others wont do. Not everything can be taught or written down. Thats how i feel about my no-limit game. It cant be taught or written down."

My question is, whats your approach to poker. Are you a straight up, by the book player? Or do you just come into a game and just start playing by feel? Or do you consider yourself in a different catagory?

[lehighguy]

Below 200NL or 3/6 limit I think you could play exact written strategies and be profitable. Above that you gotta play poker at stuff.

[Phanekim]

for most part this is correct. you can make money playing poker by the book. Although, times are changing.

[8502]

Could you please give me the links to those articels? I cant find Tuan Lee on that site.

[Dan BRIGHT]

book + reads + tells

[Reef]

if this is a gut feeling vs. brain.. I'd go with the gut

[Dan BRIGHT]

if gut > brain , then poker might not be your game

[PokerAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Tuan Lee ... said theyve read maby 1 poker book in their entire life.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you have expert sucking out skills, you don't need to know how to play. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[winky51]

Amen!!!

Books are the base for your play and determining other player's play. Then the rest is added in. But then again I love live play. NL live tournaments I feel I have psychic powers.

But all my decisions are based 1st on pot odds and their position.

[solucky]

If i have in my first 100 hands 11 times 2-4 outers on river that beat me, i know that they want the $$$ back. Play alot if they have u on win, and less if they have you on loose thats all.

[Xhad]

While there is the occasional prodigy who can "play by feel", I find it hard to believe that this approach is profitable for the majority of people. OK, so you're looking at Layne Flack talking about this stuff, but what about my fish friend who calls down two-outers because "I felt it coming"?

I think you only hurt your game thinking about this stuff. You are not Doyle Brunson.*


*Probably.

[CallYNotRaise06]

im just curious, i dont play by feel. i have to play by the book at the limits i play. To many donks to make sophisticated plays

[CallYNotRaise06]

lol thats true

[CallYNotRaise06]

my gut always ends up costing me the pot /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[cnfuzzd]

im torn between the fourth option, hate-fuelled tilt, and option five, drunken-oblivion mouse-clicking.

both seem to work well.

peace

john nickle

[winky51]

Hmm my gut is always right.

[Autocratic]

My gut is usually right, but it's just an extension of my common sense. When someone who calls all the time with flush draws check/calls on a draw-heavy board and a flush card hits and they bet huge, my "gut" is telling me to fold because it's obvious that I'm beat.

[esad]

I think you're misunderstanding what Flack is saying. He isn't saying that he "plays by feel." He's saying that he doesn't want to play by the rules of a book someone else wrote. He wants to come up with his own method of play. This is much different then playing by feel or using your gut. And I'd agree with him. It would be better if you changed the poll to "Play by the book" or "Play by your own methods"

Besides, anyone who plays by what they feel, is bound to loose money in the long term. That's gambling, and I don't gamble.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're misunderstanding what Flack is saying. He isn't saying that he "plays by feel." He's saying that he doesn't want to play by the rules of a book someone else wrote. He wants to come up with his own method of play. This is much different then playing by feel or using your gut. And I'd agree with him. It would be better if you changed the poll to "Play by the book" or "Play by your own methods"

Besides, anyone who plays by what they feel, is bound to loose money in the long term. That's gambling, and I don't gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

saying you dont gamble displays your serious misundertstanding of the game you play.

peace

john nickle

[TheGame1020]

Both.

[esad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're misunderstanding what Flack is saying. He isn't saying that he "plays by feel." He's saying that he doesn't want to play by the rules of a book someone else wrote. He wants to come up with his own method of play. This is much different then playing by feel or using your gut. And I'd agree with him. It would be better if you changed the poll to "Play by the book" or "Play by your own methods"

Besides, anyone who plays by what they feel, is bound to loose money in the long term. That's gambling, and I don't gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

saying you dont gamble displays your serious misundertstanding of the game you play.

peace

john nickle

[/ QUOTE ]

Gamble:

1. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
2. To play a game of chance for stakes.
3. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior

I don't do any of these things. If you take poker as gambling (like craps or roulette) then that shows that you have a serious problem understanding and managing risk.

[UncleSalty]

[ QUOTE ]

Gamble:

1. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
2. To play a game of chance for stakes.
3. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior

I don't do any of these things. If you take poker as gambling (like craps or roulette) then that shows that you have a serious problem understanding and managing risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sir, are an idiot.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're misunderstanding what Flack is saying. He isn't saying that he "plays by feel." He's saying that he doesn't want to play by the rules of a book someone else wrote. He wants to come up with his own method of play. This is much different then playing by feel or using your gut. And I'd agree with him. It would be better if you changed the poll to "Play by the book" or "Play by your own methods"

Besides, anyone who plays by what they feel, is bound to loose money in the long term. That's gambling, and I don't gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

saying you dont gamble displays your serious misundertstanding of the game you play.

peace

john nickle

[/ QUOTE ]

Gamble:

1. To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.
2. To play a game of chance for stakes.
3. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior

I don't do any of these things. If you take poker as gambling (like craps or roulette) then that shows that you have a serious problem understanding and managing risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

you really have no clue at all what you are talking about. Given the extreme degree of stupidity that you have displayed here, i would say that you gamble just by walking out the door.

peace

john nickle

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
2. To play a game of chance for stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are saying you dont do this??

[asofel]

esad,

You just did something to yourself. I'll give you a hint: you're not the guy in this picture...click (http://www.offramp.org/~lapis/images/pwned.jpg)

[Namdrahsirhc]

I think a solid foundation in written information or "by the book" play is important, but after that, especially in live play, its all about feel for me. Once i got a stable bankroll for live 1/2NL, I started playing more by feel.

For example,re-raising with nothing when i feel my opponent is weak or incredibly tight. Think about it this way. If you are 90% sure that your opponent has kings and the flop comes with an ace, you can checkraise him with anything.

[runout_mick]

[ QUOTE ]
If i have in my first 100 hands 11 times 2-4 outers on river that beat me, i know that they want the $$$ back. Play alot if they have u on win, and less if they have you on loose thats all.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[diebitter]

I started by doing a shedload of studying - 30+ books in about 3 months + plus thinking long and hard about the examples etc, but also playing loads of limit .50/1, moving to 1/2 and 2/4 as bankroll grew.

Now, 9 months on from starting, I reread occasionally, but it's really ground into me from that first burst of effort, and I don't feel the need to revisit the books much. I read mags, but they typically seem like beginner's advice so nothing educating about them for me.

I've got to a point where I've tried all the variants of holdem (Limit/NL Ring, Limit Tourneys (twice was enough!), and NL SNG's, multitable and large field tourneys) and found out what my own inclinations and personality suits best (NL only, 10-hand SNG's and large field Tourneys) and it's almost always 'feel', but this is still strongly book-based!

I say this, in the sense I really applied myself to Harrington on Holdem vol.1 and inflection points in Vol.2 and got success pretty much continuously from that point, so the principles there are now second nature (combined with just sometimes going for an all in with poor cards when I felt the remaining players weren't calling stations). Been quite successful. So frankly, it's 'feel', but it's 'book-learned' feel!

[whiskeytown]

tried feel - couldn't cut it - went to book -

I think they're probably full of [censored] - Layne's plays are based upon his mental condition which may have more to do with substances in his body then what he actually thinks of a hand....but I heard from a board member he backed off -

Don't know of Tuan really - Never been real impressed by him - though I think a lot of the Vietnamese players mentor each other and I could see how Tuan could get better without reading a book, esp. if it's not his native language, of which I'm not sure..

Is Fossilman less of a pro cause he came here before winning the WSOP and discussed hands? - I think not -

don't lose sleep - the feel comes with the experience, not the books -

RB

[whiskeytown]

that would make a good avatar too - LOL

easd - you ARE gambling - you are gambling on things that ideally will have a positive expectation of winning - but you are gambling - and if you choose to play in such a way that reduces your gamble, you will be playing in ways that are less EV for you...

Ed Miller goes into it real well in SSHE - forget learning by feel - read the book - LOL.

RB

[bennyblanco]

[ QUOTE ]
That's gambling, and I don't gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

"'Poker isn't gambling.' You have surely heard someone say it. You may have said it yourself. Whoever says it usually really means, 'In the long run, everyone expects to receive the same distribution of good and bad hands. Being lucky does not make you a long-term winner; playing better than your opponents does. Eventually, the bad players will lose and the good players will all win.' That is a bit long-winded, though, so most people tend to stick to, 'Poker isn't gambling.' You are better off not abbreviating, though, because the second statement is true, while the first one is not! POKER IS GAMBLING." (SSHE, p. 19)

[twang]

"I play by feel" is just another way to justify [censored] actions at the table, just like "I play to win". 99 times out of 100 it basically means "I'm not aware of the reasons for my own plays and I really like making random gambles."

I think Cardplayer promoting this philosophy is good for poker.

[_TKO_]

NL or limit?

It matters.

[6thsense]

I think it is a mix of book learning and the natural feel you get after playing for a long time. WHen i first started off i read as many books as i could but it didnt seem to help my game..at all. What i learned from the books was all helpful information but alot of the times i would find myself always placing in top 3-5 at local tournies with little chance at actually winning. (small chip stak> Anyway i think everyone should read the books but you have to find a style that fits you. The books tell you what cards to play etc. But, now rr play certain cards against certain players, it all depends on the feel.

[andyexpat]

Books are great for learning the mechanics of the game, which all players should know and use.
Winning play comes from the psychological aspect of poker; reading players like a book (excuse the pun), and playing them as opposed to the cards that you have been dealt.
Good card combinations virtually play themselves. It's the "small ball" tactics that bring home the money.
Cheers /images/graemlins/cool.gif