OT German Poker Player

[Exar_Kun]

Recently moved to germany and was wondering whether there were any german poker players out there, also does anyone know about the tax laws with regards to professional poker ?

[burgi]

I'm a german poker player, but talk to a tax advisor about the law for professional poker players.
As a recreational poker player, I was told that I do not have to pay taxes on my winnings, but check with a tax advisor!

[HesseJam]

poker is stil in its infancy here in G.

Also, online gambling is against the law and they could book you for up to 6 months. Thankfully, it is not enforced.

Since you are doing something illegal, you don't have to pay taxes.

[Ali]

No taxes on illegal gambling over the internet here. Sit back and relax. Don't forget to enjoy your money as long as it'll last.

[Exar_Kun]

Woho Illegal ?? Is that really true ? I was hoping to eventually become professional poker player over here, and follow in a close friends footsteps.

I mean If it was my sole income how likely is it that Im going to be booked ?

[chokero]

It is illegal in germany, though there's no specific law on online gambling. Anyways, no one was ever booked for playing online poker in germany.

[Exar_Kun]

Is it merely illegal to gamble then (to play poker) ? or specifically online gambling ? I did a little research and it seems that its more illegal for the companies to offer online gambling rather than to play. In other words the online companies dont meet the regulations.

Does anyone know where I could find out more ?

[chokero]

This is what the law says:

Section 284 Unauthorized Organization of a Game of Chance
(1) Whoever, without the permission of a public authority, publicly organizes or runs a game of chance or makes the equipment therefor available, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine.

(2) Games of chance in clubs or private parties in which games of chance are regularly organized shall qualify as publicly organized.

(3) Whoever, in cases under subsection (1), acts:

1. professionally; or

2. as a member of a gang which has combined for the continued commission of such acts,

shall be punished with imprisonment from three months to five years.

(4) Whoever recruits for a public game of chance (subsections (1) and (2)), shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than one year or a fine.

Section 285 Participation in an Unauthorized Game of Chance
Whoever participates in a public game of chance (Section 284) shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than six months or a fine of not more than one hundred eighty daily rates.

As poker is considered a game of chance in germany, it is not allowed to play it outside a casino, though, as I mentioned, playing online is not specifically mentioned. The law is pretty old and has never been enforced against online poker players.

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
Section 285 Participation in an Unauthorized Game of Chance
Whoever participates in a public game of chance (Section 284) shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than six months or a fine of not more than one hundred eighty daily rates.

[/ QUOTE ]

One possible attack on this, dunno if it would stand up, is that when you play online at home, you are playing in private. Depending on how sympathetic a judge was to privacy issues, this might fly? I'm not a lawyer, or even slightly familiar with German law.

B.

[Exar_Kun]

Ok, sounds very bad so far. A few questions:

+ How many German poker players are out there ?
+ Do you play professionally, and with what stakes ?
+ Do you have a german registered address, and bank account ?
+ Has anyone been booked, or know someone who has been booked for such a thing ?

I will be researching a lot more about this topic with hopefully some helpful information coming soon.

One arguement is that poker is not solely a game of chance;
although it contains a large 'luck' element, a professional will claim that he uses skill to win. However I will be finding out more about the legal definition of a game of chance in germany. This topic is also at great debate in england with clubs such as the 'gutshot' club in london.

Another interesting point is the location at which I am playing. The poker servers are located abroad (Gibraltar in my case), not in germany. My opponents are neither in my home, and therefore am I participating in a poker game at my house or on the server? - difficult question

Thirdly, the law is unclear with online gambling, especially poker, this may result in a very leniant sentance.

Fortunately there is absolutely no enforcement, and the ISPs freely allow german players to access the poker websites and servers (unlike in washington).

If a player controlled another computer abroad using a remote desktop type utility, would this change anything ?

Otherwise it looks like a swiss nominal bank account and a part time job to cover expenses. :-)

[cardcore]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, sounds very bad so far. A few questions:

+ How many German poker players are out there ?
+ Do you play professionally, and with what stakes ?
+ Do you have a german registered address, and bank account ?
+ Has anyone been booked, or know someone who has been booked for such a thing ?

I will be researching a lot more about this topic with hopefully some helpful information coming soon.

One arguement is that poker is not solely a game of chance;
although it contains a large 'luck' element, a professional will claim that he uses skill to win. However I will be finding out more about the legal definition of a game of chance in germany. This topic is also at great debate in england with clubs such as the 'gutshot' club in london.

Another interesting point is the location at which I am playing. The poker servers are located abroad (Gibraltar in my case), not in germany. My opponents are neither in my home, and therefore am I participating in a poker game at my house or on the server? - difficult question

Thirdly, the law is unclear with online gambling, especially poker, this may result in a very leniant sentance.

Fortunately there is absolutely no enforcement, and the ISPs freely allow german players to access the poker websites and servers (unlike in washington).

If a player controlled another computer abroad using a remote desktop type utility, would this change anything ?

Otherwise it looks like a swiss nominal bank account and a part time job to cover expenses. :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

there a a lot and the number of players is still increasing because of lots of marketing in TV or in paper.

I would call myself a professional pokerplayer, because I am unemployed and my only income are poker winnings /images/graemlins/wink.gif
Usually I 8-table the $215 - $530 sngs but also try to play nl cashgame or mtts.

I got a registered bank account and cash out about 1-2 times / month and didn't get a problem (yet)
Also I don't know anyone who has been booked for playing poker in germany.

[Ali]

[ QUOTE ]
I got a registered bank account and cash out about 1-2 times / month and didn't get a problem (yet)
Also I don't know anyone who has been booked for playing poker in germany.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll be the 1st and I'll laugh my ass off- as usual about you. But anyway, it'll strike someone sooner or later. Let's not hope we'll happen to be the precedent-setting suckers.

[Exar_Kun]

If they advertise on the tv, and no-one has been booked so far, then it does sound like poker is an tolerated. However this leads to tax questions. Cardcore do you pay tax on your income ?

[cardcore]

[ QUOTE ]
If they advertise on the tv, and no-one has been booked so far, then it does sound like poker is an tolerated. However this leads to tax questions. Cardcore do you pay tax on your income ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a regular income anymore, so I dont pay any taxes

[neverforgetlol]

you pay sales tax and such though.. right?