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View Full Version : Bad medium stack range in Myth of Suited connectors article


wagon30
07-03-2006, 07:34 AM
Mr. Kagan's results are largely based on the hand ranges he chose. I'm going to focus on the medium range, because it is most pertinent to where the authors of Kill Phil divide pushing with ace rag and pushing with suited connectors. Let's look at two kill phil pushing ranges, I'll call medium and loose. Medium consists of 19.2% of hands including suited connectors and not including off suit ace hands below A7o. Loose consists of 34.5% of hands and includes all ace rag hands.

KQs has 46.645% pot equity against the first range and 52.122% pot equity against the second range. Against both KP ranges ATo, A9s and A9o have more equity that KQs. Against the loose range 55 also has more equity than KQs. If you add these hands, the results versus a medium stack change.

vs. A9+, 66+, KQs
76s equity is 33.761%
A5o equity is 29.875%

76s has 13% more equity with this range, much more that the 7.7% equity that the author estimates.

vs. A9+, KQs, 55+
76s equity is 34.442%
A5o equity is 29.945%

76s has 15% more equity than A5o.

Why is my range better? Because my range performs better against KP strategies than the author's. The only reason the author gets the results he does is that his fictional calling range happens to overvalue KQs and undervalue ATo, A9o and A9s.

The same pattern is true for the tight range. Add the next two hands AQo and AQs and 76s has 31.637% equity vs. A5o's
27.351%. Add 99 and AJ and it breaks down 32.419% vs. 27.837% (AJ is slightly better than 88 against the KP range). Those are 15.6% and 16.5% increases for 76s over A5o. When the author says, "If your opponents are very tight, there is little difference between the four hands evaluated" he is way off base. When you get all in with 76s rather than A5o against these ranges the difference is nearly a tenth of your stack!!!

The point that the author's in KP, so enthusiastically make is that in formulating a push-fold strategy for late in tournaments suited connectors should be added to your range before ace rag hands even though ace rag hands are much better hot and cold against a random hand. This is counter-intuitive to many new players. By the time ace rag should be added to your range, it is usually correct to be pushing suited connectors also.

There are many situations now especially with the rise of sit n gos, where ace rag becomes a power house. Anyone who plays a push fold strategy near the end of sit n go's knows they are elated when they see an ace and meh when they see a suited connector. But in a full table at a multi-table tournament, calling criteria is often constrained by the chance that someone behind the caller will pick up a good hand and reraise. The BB's calling criteria is often constrained by people already in the hand. Also, the authors of KP and many other authors urge their readers not to wait until they have an insignificant stack to push pre-flop. so the calling criteria may be further constrained by pot odds. Someone moving in with a 4000 chip stack from the button with the blinds 100-200 following the KP advice isn't giving someone odds to call with KQs even with their loose 20% range.

tipperdog
07-05-2006, 12:22 PM
Hi. Thanks for reading my piece and posting. I do enjoy reading people's comments, whether positive or negative.

First, let me say that I totally agree that the right play depends on the calling range of your opponent. My estimate of calling ranges is my own, based on what I see primarily at the online tables. I think my ranges were reasonable, although there's plenty of room for alternates. You are also correct that adding or subtracting just a few hands from each range can make a very significant difference in the results.

My biggest problem with Kill Phil's short essay on suited connectors (p. 71-72) is that it assumes calling ranges that I think aren't reasonable (I say assumes because the authors never express an exact calling range, but readers can draw interferences from the text).

Specifically, Nelson and Rodman write that "in the late stages" of a tournament, "some players play most Ax hands." Next, they describe a scenario in which a player is called by "a weak ace," so I infer that when they say some players "play" most Ax hands, they really mean that some players will call all-in with Ax.

The authors are right. There are many such players, to be sure. But, in my experience, if someone is willing to call an all-in bet with A2, they're almost certainly willing to do the same with KQ, KJ and possibly even worse. If you're up against such an opponent, I think you'd much prefer to see A5o than 67s.

Absolution
07-05-2006, 03:23 PM
The difficulty online for me is that you don't often get a good read on an opponents calling standards unless he has happened to take out a few short stacks before you. I try to play the situation more if I don't have any further information. Some examples: a large stack sitting in the blinds is more likely to call me with the loose standards or even looser actually. If you're only 10% of their stack they may take the Harrington motto of calling with any 2. If it's on the bubble for itm, I might expect medium standards from a typical opponent. If it's a FT bubble or a satellite bubble, I'd expect the tight standards. Their calling standards also depend heavily on how short stacked you are. If you are 5xBB they may call with over 50% of their hands, even with a medium sized stack, knowing that they are likely drawing live and are risking little to see all 5 cards. I know I'd call in that situation with any 2.

The hand that made me favor suited connectors over Ax was a satellite bubble where I went out with A6 in the CO against the SBs AJo. In this situation we were about 5 player out of the seats and I was at about 5xBB, but so were about half the remaining players. The SB had about 40BB. I'm not sure if this article helps me here though. I mean, it's a satellite bubble and nobody wants to risk losing here, but he really isn't risking much here. It's hard to determine if he'd call with something like KJ or KT though.

I think the article was an eye opener more for the fact that in most situations it probably doesn't matter what you push with in these situations. Maybe I won't be as results oriented the next time I get called by a dominated hand.

HighStakesPro
07-08-2006, 01:04 AM
I think the main thing to consider here is that the tighter your opponent's calling range, the more you'd rather have suited connectors than Ax. That's why in Kill Phil Basic, suited connectors are in a higher group than the Ax hands, because there are more situations where its okay to move in with then than there are when you have Ax.

Blair Rodman
07-08-2006, 01:20 PM
KP was written almost two years ago, even though it only came to press in October '05. Since then, the game has changed, and continues to do so. When we wrote it, our criterion were based on what we estimated as calling ranges of typical opponents. Based on the calling frequencies of online players, we nearly eliminated suited connectors from the strategy. Also, at that time, my feeling was that players were more likely to call with a weak ace than with KQ, KJ, or QJ, the hands that seem to be pivitol to this discussion. Based on what I've seen since then, especially at this years' WSOP, I think that has changed. I've seen calls with hands that boggle my mind. For some reason, those hands in question have moved way up in value in players' minds as calling standards. The WSOP NL events are starting to resemble online events.

Tipperdog's article has merit, even though it's a relatively minor point. The hands he discusses are very close in value, and thinking players should understand that the hand groupings aren't hard and fast rules, but rather guidelines that can have some overlap, especially in the lower groups. This is yet another reason why we urge players to get past KP Basic as soon as possible and learn to think and react to conditions at the table. I'm sure in the future that chganging tendencies of typical opponents will put some other parts of the other KP Basic strategy in question. Discussions like this will help keep the strategy alive and up to date.