why is heaven a comforting idea?

[spaceman Bryce]

The actual title of this thread is " does anyone else find complete emptyness/non- existence more comforting than the idea of a heaven?", but it doesnt fit up top. I bring this up because I always have. When i die I want to completely vanish from existence forever. And I always have. But i am aware that most people would rather live for ever in a super heaven than dissapear. to me it looks like this

Heaven:
A friendly accountant with a white robe smiles and says "welcome to heaven!please have a seat while god faxes his response regarding your resume."
If your a good person- which i dont think i would get in anyway- congrats! you are pre-approved! heres is your wings and heaven manuel, please enjoy the golden/chocolate slide with all the hot angels at the bottom."

Athiest style death:
you are nothing.you are no longer judged or beaten or hungry because you do not exist.You will rest eternally.

When i bring this up with good christians many say something to the effect of :
"heaven is not about gold roads and hot babes, its an emotion, a feeling so perfect that it is beyond love and it cannot be described."
This arguement carries some weight with me- it makes the idea of enjoying eternal life possible to me, but
1. The bible describes it as some super kingdom repeatedly, not as a meditative state
2. I just dont buy the idea that positive emotions can come from something that doesnt produce pain- most love is painful.

So why do you find heaven a comforting idea, and does anyone agree with me that they not only dont believe in heaven but they are HOPING there is no such thing?

[madnak]

It depends on your definition of heaven. Under the definition of heaven used most commonly today in the general sense, heaven is "good" by definition. Toward the Christian heaven in particular, who knows? And if heaven is defined as merely the dwelling-place of divine beings, again, who knows? I can see no reason for believing in a heaven like the one you described; that seems highly unlikely to me.

So in general, yes I'd say heaven is desirable. For one thing, the idea of ceasing to exist scares me. If you're not afraid of it, that's great for you. But I am. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing - it's not a negative state, it's a null state. But I'm scared of it, so the idea of avoiding it is comforting. Also, since I'd say death by definition has a neutral value, and heaven has either a neutral (in the "who knows?" cases, which I think we can consider totally random) or a positive (in the "good by definition" case) value, that heaven is better.

[Peter666]

It sounds like not wanting Heaven in this case is more a fear of judgement.

Anyone in their right mind would prefer a place of perfect happiness to life on Earth or ceasing to exist. Although if there is a place of eternal pain, I would much rather cease to exist than go there! But as we cannot cease to exist no matter how hard we try, it looks like our choice is extremely limited.

[luckyme]

It's only comforting to some because they've been conditioned to think of it as comforting. Many cultures past and present do not rely on such a tale. To those people it's no more comforting than the one about the big bad wolf.
[ QUOTE ]
does anyone agree with me that they not only dont believe in heaven but they are HOPING there is no such thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

"no such thing" is too vague for me, but certainly no version of it that I've heard of sounds appealling and most are disgusting.

[revots33]

I went to my grandmother's funeral recently. The priest talked about heaven. He said he likes to think of it as driving up to a big old house, after a long time away. All your family and friends and loved ones are there on the porch, waiting for you. Your heart is filled with love and joy as you see these people you've missed for so long. And you get to be with them in perfect happiness with God, forever. He said it's like the most joyful family reunion you could ever imagine, and the joy is never ending.

Now was he making this up? Well unless he's died and come back to life he certainly was speculating at the least. But, if it were true... who WOULDN'T find that idea comforting?
Why would you willingly choose nothingness over that?

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you willingly choose nothingness over that?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because I would not want to spend eternity on the side of a tyrant, never mind how luxurious his palace. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Now was he making this up?

[/ QUOTE ]
hahahahahahaha.
One of the weaknesses in his sales pitch is that I don't want to spend all my time with my family friends and loved ones now. An eternity with them on a orgasmic cocaine high, but I don't get to say "oh, that's great that herbert graduated." or "nice to see the stitches are healing, hortense." We float around smiling and saying "ooooooohhhhhmmmmm". bleah.

The closest analogy I can think of from the descriptions claimed for it is like a eternal sensory deprivation tank on meth.

[ QUOTE ]
who WOULDN'T find that idea comforting?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a state we don't try to acheive now, for obvious reasons. We try and save people who attempt a constant state of bliss and may throw in a "get a life" or "experience something".

[singasong]

The world we are living in is a heaven for some, while it is hell for the others.

There is no heaven on some higher level,I think. We are here,where we are. Heaven is human being's imagination.

There is no past, no future. Time does not exist. Time is human being's imagination.

We believe in God when we belive in ourselves.

[doucy]

One thing I like to associate with Heaven is the satisfaction of one's curiosity. What's the whole story behind the Kennedy assassination? Did that girl in econ really want to bang you or was she just being friendly? Did you make the correct fold in that big hand last night? These are all questions to which you will never know the answers... unless you have access to an all-knowing God.

[madnak]

[ QUOTE ]
The world we are living in is a heaven for some, while it is hell for the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I suppose we're meant to believe it's "karma" that determines which is which?

[Morrek]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The world we are living in is a heaven for some, while it is hell for the others.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I suppose we're meant to believe it's "karma" that determines which is which?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, just how you choose to experience things. One thing can be hell for one person while the exact same thing can be heaven for another.

[madnak]

So when a small child is burned alive, he can "choose" for that to be heaven?

[Lestat]

As an atheist, I don't believe in heaven, but I would like to live forever. Who wouldn't? Who wants to die and become non-existent? I think you have a weird slant that is in the minority.

[Morrek]

[ QUOTE ]
So when a small child is burned alive, he can "choose" for that to be heaven?

[/ QUOTE ]

He can, yes. He probably won't though, as that is very hard for the mind to understand. But think, from a spiritual level, a soul level, you can never get "hurt" by anything.
Heck, dying could quite possibly be the most wonderful thing to ever happen to the small child. How could we know?

[madnak]

I'll just have to believe based on what I see, that the child isn't having a good time.

[DonkBluffer]

[ QUOTE ]
But think, from a spiritual level, a soul level, you can never get "hurt" by anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Yesterday I had an awful headache. Now it's gone. Now it might as well not have existed at all, because it does not affect me anymore. For something to truly hurt me, wouldn't it have to permanently change me? Because if an experience just comes and goes without changing anything, it doesn't really matter, right?

[spaceman Bryce]

[ QUOTE ]
I went to my grandmother's funeral recently. The priest talked about heaven. He said he likes to think of it as driving up to a big old house, after a long time away. All your family and friends and loved ones are there on the porch, waiting for you. Your heart is filled with love and joy as you see these people you've missed for so long. And you get to be with them in perfect happiness with God, forever. He said it's like the most joyful family reunion you could ever imagine, and the joy is never ending.

Now was he making this up? Well unless he's died and come back to life he certainly was speculating at the least. But, if it were true... who WOULDN'T find that idea comforting?
Why would you willingly choose nothingness over that?

[/ QUOTE ]

hi. After reading the posts, I would agree that im in a wierd minority. there is a fundamental reason why I dont find that idea comforting, but it raises horrible questions for me. the reason is that I naturally hate almost everyone, and I prefer bieng alone. So the part about returning to a long time family just sounds bad to me. Happiness is also a concept which I am less familiar with than most. which raises these questions about me
1.Is my natural desire for isolation and hatred of people some form of evil?
2. If so, why have I always felt this way- why was i made "evil" or perverted?
3. Does my distrusting and paraniod nature mean that my views on all social matters become less valid?

I dont really like to think about this but then there are more questions I can ask out of curiousity...

1. I like to read and enjoy fictional characters that i would hate in real life. Do i like these characters because I have some kind of sick narcissism for my own imagination?
2. Am i still selfish in a negative way since I dwell on these things?
.....................There are more but most revolve around the thought of me bieng evil/perverted/subhuman OR as I like to imagine it, am I some kind of rougue hero in a giant script for a few people who may or may not exist?

I am able to look at this logically and often come to the conclusion that my own thoughts on subjects like these must be invalid since i am obviously introverted and self-centered and somewhat dillusional. Even typing out this long paragraph is just more of my own narcissism/ self-centeredness.
I often wonder if I could become this ideal trancendent person who cares more about the needs of others and use the mental illnesses I have been tested with as an excuse to be self-centered and detached from caring about other human biengs. But i have always been this way so maybe it IS just impossible for me to be a truly kind human bieng. I do lots of favors for people but i always expect something in return in the long run. Sometimes when i have thoughts like this i do a thankless favor for people but it is only to feel good about myself.

Im going to shut up now......sorry.

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
Heaven:
A friendly accountant with a white robe smiles and says "welcome to heaven!please have a seat while god faxes his response regarding your resume."
If your a good person- which i dont think i would get in anyway- congrats! you are pre-approved! heres is your wings and heaven manuel, please enjoy the golden/chocolate slide with all the hot angels at the bottom."


[/ QUOTE ]

Add some beer to the picture, and it sounds g00t to me. (Does God provide microbrews in heaven?) In the Monty Python version of heaven, the hot angels are wearing little topless santa outfits and dancing in a cheesy Vegas-style act.

Alas, since I'm an atheist, according to most versions of Christian (and other) theism, I'm damned to hell regardless of my behavior. That's probably a good thing, since if I actually met this "God," I'd be really pissed off and demand an explanation for his seemingly unethical, arbitrary, and bizarre sense of morality, not to mention his execrable design of the universe and life. I wouldn't want to cause a scene and interrupt the hot dancing angels.

[Jeffmet3]

But don't you find a bit, maybe scary is the word, that after you die, you're gone forever? After that, it's over, there's nothing more for you. I realize that is the "practical" thing that will happen, but in terms of faith, it allows you to think (hope) that there's something more, something afterwards which will continue the essense of you.

[DonkBluffer]

[ QUOTE ]
But don't you find a bit, maybe scary is the word, that after you die, you're gone forever? After that, it's over, there's nothing more for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
The one who finds it scary is gone then. There can't be any problems after death, unless there's an afterlife...

[Jeffmet3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But don't you find a bit, maybe scary is the word, that after you die, you're gone forever? After that, it's over, there's nothing more for you.

[/ QUOTE ]
The one who finds it scary is gone then. There can't be any problems after death, unless there's an afterlife...

[/ QUOTE ]

But, I'm not talking about a fear of what will happen after you die, rather a fear of what won't happen.

As people, we put ourselves up on a pedestal, and it's pretty humbling to think that after we die, we just become a lifeless nothing along with the rest of nature.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
...it's pretty humbling to think that after we die, we just become a lifeless nothing along with the rest of nature.

[/ QUOTE ]

we dont even become that, we simply are no more! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ZenMasterFlex]

To an athiest, heaven existing wouldn't be a comforting idea. Any athiest who knows the bible knows what I mean.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
…you are nothing…You will rest eternally.

[/ QUOTE ]

I trust that you realize this makes no sense.

[spaceman Bryce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
…you are nothing…You will rest eternally.

[/ QUOTE ]

I trust that you realize this makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know. I assume what you are saying is that you cannot be resting eternally because you do not exist, therefore it is impossible for you to be in a state of rest.....ok i guess you're right. It totally doesnt makes sense. but if i replaced the word rest with "non-existence" it would make sense and it still would have the same appeal to me- the end of experiencing constant pain emotionally physically and mentally.

[spaceman Bryce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you willingly choose nothingness over that?


[/ QUOTE ]

Because I would not want to spend eternity on the side of a tyrant, never mind how luxurious his palace. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif "I would not want to spend eternity on the side of a tyrant, never mind how luxurious his palace." /images/graemlins/heart.gif- quote of my day.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
To an athiest, heaven existing wouldn't be a comforting idea. Any athiest who knows the bible knows what I mean.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, we're counting on the death bed conversion.

[bluesbassman]

[ QUOTE ]
But don't you find a bit, maybe scary is the word, that after you die, you're gone forever? After that, it's over, there's nothing more for you. I realize that is the "practical" thing that will happen, but in terms of faith, it allows you to think (hope) that there's something more, something afterwards which will continue the essense of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for the rational skeptics among us, I suppose there is always quantum immortality:

Wiki Quantum Immortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality)

[McBusto]

[ QUOTE ]


you do not exist.You will rest eternally.



[/ QUOTE ]

It is hard to rest when you do not exist.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


you do not exist.You will rest eternally.



[/ QUOTE ]

It is hard to rest when you do not exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or is it infinitely easy? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
To an athiest, heaven existing wouldn't be a comforting idea. Any athiest who knows the bible knows what I mean.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why? I'm an atheist and would be delighted if heaven existed.

chez

[jman220]

Personally, I'd rather spend the rest of eternity in Hell than cease to exist. (Obviously Heaven would be the best of the 3 options).

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But don't you find a bit, maybe scary is the word, that after you die, you're gone forever? After that, it's over, there's nothing more for you. I realize that is the "practical" thing that will happen, but in terms of faith, it allows you to think (hope) that there's something more, something afterwards which will continue the essense of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for the rational skeptics among us, I suppose there is always quantum immortality:

Wiki Quantum Immortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality)

[/ QUOTE ]

As I understand it though, that doesn't mean that you will never die, it just means that there will always exist a quantum reality in which you are still alive, so from your point of reference you are immortal, because all they "you's" that have died no longer have a point of reference. So you still have to be the lucky one who just happens to exist in that one in a trillion universe in which you are immortal. Or am I misunderstanding something?

[Wubbie075]

I feel no discomfort at the idea of ceasing to exist... though I certainly would prefer an eternity in heaven...

as an atheist, however, I do find comfort in the knowledge that I can live out my days without the fear and uncertainty of wondering "if" I am going to heaven or hell..

I get to enjoy my time "here"... short as it may be

[JuntMonkey]

[ QUOTE ]
To an athiest, heaven existing wouldn't be a comforting idea. Any athiest who knows the bible knows what I mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does the Bible have to do with heaven?