I'm furious

[Jussurreal]

This is my first post but I am a long time internet poker player. I hate the people that are trying to take my favorite past-time away from me. I have no idea what I'm going to do if I can't play poker online. It's completely against american principles to ban a person from visiting a site on the internet(unless of course the site poses a risk to national security). I look forward to playing poker online everyday when I get up, and I'm almost literally sick over what is about to happen. If it passes(and there is probably about an 80% chance of that happening from what I've heard), you won't even be able to visit the gambling sites or connect to their servers. Making it impossible to play. Furious is not the word.

Like someone else said, some people have problems with shopping. Is the government going to shut down the malls and clothes stores? POKER IS A SKILL GAME. Horse betting is not, and they are going to make an exception for that......I am a very caring, understanding person, but I HATE the people who want to take this away from us.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
It's completely against american principles to ban a person from visiting a site on the internet(unless of course the site poses a risk to national security).

[/ QUOTE ]

Gambling websites do pose a risk to national security. They enable money laundering. They also pose a risk to civil order by creating a generation of addictive gamblers. Surely, you can see how the favorite pastime of a small minority is a small and reasonable sacrifice, necessary to maintain the security of our great country and our continued prosperity.

[tsrcess]

i was a little interested in your comment that horse racing is not a skill game. certainly, there is a lot of skill present in horse racing, both from the horse point of view, the trainer point of view, and the jockey point of view. additionally, the bettor of horse races has to use skill in selecting which horses to bet on. it's not a lot different from poker, i don't believe. if online poker is illegal, then, it should not be allowed the same as anything else that is illegal. i think the solution is to legalize it and regulate it.

[ZPinhead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's completely against american principles to ban a person from visiting a site on the internet(unless of course the site poses a risk to national security).

[/ QUOTE ]

Gambling websites do pose a risk to national security. They enable money laundering. They also pose a risk to civil order by creating a generation of addictive gamblers. Surely, you can see how the favorite pastime of a small minority is a small and reasonable sacrifice, necessary to maintain the security of our great country and our continued prosperity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly hope that post is sarcasm and my detector is just on the fritz...

"...and we gotta stop this kinda thing immediatly! Don't you know that these internet gambling parlors are funding Al Qaeda." (but then again so is using illegal drugs, driving a low gas mileage vehicle or illegally downloading music)

"If your Mommy is a commie, you gotta turn her in!"

[Jussurreal]

Yeah, if somebody has a gambling problem that is made worse by the internet, then surely they will use the horse racing clause in the bill to transfer their addiction from poker to horse racing. Way to get rid of the problem congress.

And tsrcess, surely you know that i was referring to the act of GAMBLING on horse racing and not on horse racing itself. Hence the words I used....."Horse betting". Yes there are people out there who are good at betting horses, but compared to poker it's common sense that poker has much more of a skill and strategy factor to it than horse racing.

Bettors of horse racing cannot do anything to control the outcome of the horse race. Whereas bettors of poker games(you bet on yourself), directly influence the outcome of whether they win or lose.

[IronDragon1]

[ QUOTE ]
This is my first post but I am a long time internet poker player. I hate the people that are trying to take my favorite past-time away from me. I have no idea what I'm going to do if I can't play poker online. It's completely against american principles to ban a person from visiting a site on the internet(unless of course the site poses a risk to national security). I look forward to playing poker online everyday when I get up, and I'm almost literally sick over what is about to happen. If it passes(and there is probably about an 80% chance of that happening from what I've heard), you won't even be able to visit the gambling sites or connect to their servers. Making it impossible to play. Furious is not the word.

Like someone else said, some people have problems with shopping. Is the government going to shut down the malls and clothes stores? POKER IS A SKILL GAME. Horse betting is not, and they are going to make an exception for that......I am a very caring, understanding person, but I HATE the people who want to take this away from us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your enthusiam but you are woefully misinformed.

[Jimmy The Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
Hence the words I used....."Horse betting". Yes there are people out there who are good at betting horses, but compared to poker it's common sense that poker has much more of a skill and strategy factor to it than horse racing.

Bettors of horse racing cannot do anything to control the outcome of the horse race. Whereas bettors of poker games(you bet on yourself), directly influence the outcome of whether they win or lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's at least as much skill required to be a successful horseplayer as to be a successful poker player. Were it not for the 17% rake on every horse race, I'd probably spend as much time reading the Form as I do reading 2+2.

If you like to pick horses at random (or by the color of their coat, or their starting position, or by their name), then yes, it's a complete gamble. But if you can decipher the past performances, note the caliber of the competition, adjust for track/weather conditions, and so on -- you can find a +EV betting opportunity in almost every race.

Bettors can't control the outcome of a horse race; but poker players can't control the river card, either. It's all gambling, and those of us who do well at it do so because we learn to recognize favorable situations.

[Jussurreal]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hence the words I used....."Horse betting". Yes there are people out there who are good at betting horses, but compared to poker it's common sense that poker has much more of a skill and strategy factor to it than horse racing.

Bettors of horse racing cannot do anything to control the outcome of the horse race. Whereas bettors of poker games(you bet on yourself), directly influence the outcome of whether they win or lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's at least as much skill required to be a successful horseplayer as to be a successful poker player. Were it not for the 17% rake on every horse race, I'd probably spend as much time reading the Form as I do reading 2+2.

If you like to pick horses at random (or by the color of their coat, or their starting position, or by their name), then yes, it's a complete gamble. But if you can decipher the past performances, note the caliber of the competition, adjust for track/weather conditions, and so on -- you can find a +EV betting opportunity in almost every race.

Bettors can't control the outcome of a horse race; but poker players can't control the river card, either. It's all gambling, and those of us who do well at it do so because we learn to recognize favorable situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

(In this I'm talking about a sit and go tournament where you pay a buy-in and fee). Players can't control the river card, but they can control whether they bet on it or not. Therefore the outcome of the hand is at least partly in the control of the bettor. Unlike horse racing which the bettor has 0% control ONCE THE RACE STARTS. In both poker and horse racing, you are in control of 100% of the betting factor PRE-EVENT. So because the poker players are actually partly in control of the outcome of what they bet on, there has to be more skill required to win. That's concrete, and not subjective.

Example....say you do your research on a horse and are pretty confident so you bet. However midway through the race, the horse seems to be off his game. You cant adjust and bet on another horse. However in poker you have AdAs and raise but 4 other people still call. The flop is 3 hearts.....J,T,9. You are last to act. The first person puts in a big bet, the second calls, the third raises, and the the fourth goes all in. At this point you can tell yourself that the situation doesnt look good and fold. You cant fold in the middle of a horse race once you see whats actually happening. Edge to poker.

[ragecg]

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Surely, you can see how the favorite pastime of a small minority is a small and reasonable sacrifice, necessary to maintain the security of our great country and our continued prosperity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not trying to be argumenative, but how is 40 million american poker players a minority? (ESPN)

[Overdrive]

Gambling is an expression of freedom. Barry Greenstein talks about this a little bit in his book, and how different situations involving gaming have occured in different countries in different circumstances.

I'm a little more hopeful now than I was a few months ago, since some of the big US gaming companies have now come out in favor of legalized online gaming. Previously they were stupidly opposed to it in fear it would eat into their B&M business. Also it looks like the crazy Republicans who want to control what adults can do in their free time aren't going to do to well in the upcoming elections. I know the Washington state nonsense was done by democrats, but a few democratic represntatives have come out in favor of freedom, like Frank, and Conner, while I haven't really seen any Republicans come out in favor of online gaming, because they are afraid of losing the loony tune right wing religious nut votes that they depend on.

Jim Cramer also talked about gaming stocks a couple months ago on Mad Money and he said not to worry about the current proposed legislations. He said there was no way possible for them to stop online gaming and he also noted the big US based companys that are going to try and influence congress ($$$) to pass favorable legislation for them. I mean just look at horse racing. If they can get a loophole in this draconian Washington state law, I am pretty confident that Harrah's, MGM, etc., can get an exemption or two of their own in the future, and maybe get it all the way officaly legalized.

[Jussurreal]

I hope you're right overdrive. Now that I have read even more articles, I believe that the 80% I originally posted was high. So you were right IronDragon. I am now more confident than I was yesterday.....I've read a lot more about whats going on and it doesn't seem as threatening as I originally thought. Still, it's a hypocritical piece of [censored].....i mean legislation.

[LinusKS]

[ QUOTE ]


I'm a little more hopeful now than I was a few months ago, since some of the big US gaming companies have now come out in favor of legalized online gaming. Previously they were stupidly opposed to it in fear it would eat into their B&M business. Also it looks like the crazy Republicans who want to control what adults can do in their free time aren't going to do to well in the upcoming elections. I know the Washington state nonsense was done by democrats, but a few democratic represntatives have come out in favor of freedom, like Frank, and Conner, while I haven't really seen any Republicans come out in favor of online gaming, because they are afraid of losing the loony tune right wing religious nut votes that they depend on.

Jim Cramer also talked about gaming stocks a couple months ago on Mad Money and he said not to worry about the current proposed legislations. He said there was no way possible for them to stop online gaming and he also noted the big US based companys that are going to try and influence congress ($$$) to pass favorable legislation for them. I mean just look at horse racing. If they can get a loophole in this draconian Washington state law, I am pretty confident that Harrah's, MGM, etc., can get an exemption or two of their own in the future, and maybe get it all the way officaly legalized.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how the US can stop internet gambling.

It's already illegal, which hasn't stopped it.

The operators are mostly located in places like Gibraltar and Costa Rica - beyond the reach of American authorities.

Arresting players would mean arresting Americans, who're doing something in the privacy of their own homes, which would be perfectly legal, if they were doing it at the MGM Grand, or the Bellagio. Besides being unpopular, such prosecutions would be difficult, since some jurors would be sure to balk at them.

Attacking it on the funding level is another option. But they've already stopped Americans from using credit cards, and the gambling industry hardly skipped a beat. We all just switched to Neteller. Perhaps the Goodlatte bill will be more successful, but I don't know of any reason to think so. If they kill Neteller, something else will just pop up in its place.

I suppose they could try to block gambling sites, the way China blocks parts of the internet. But I doubt Americans would stand for it. Anyway, no one's even suggested it, yet.

So yeah- I agree with Cramer. I don't see how they can stop it. Perhaps the LV properties have realized that, and that's why they've switched their position -- if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

But I don't see how that can happen, either.

Suppose MGM Grand gets a license to offer internet games to Nevadans. How do they make sure none of their players are from CA, or Maine?

And if MGM does get a license from Nevada, doesn't it have a right to demand the state keep unlicensed casinos from competing with them? How can Nevada justify requiring MGM to get a license, while simultaneously allowing Party and 888 to offer the same games, without one?

Perhaps some of you will argue the states should just get out of the licensing & regulating business altogether. I don't agree with you, but even if I did, I can tell you it's not going to happen, either.

We're pretty much stuck with the situation, as is.

Which, given the alternatives, is not a bad thing, IMO.

[IronDragon1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I'm a little more hopeful now than I was a few months ago, since some of the big US gaming companies have now come out in favor of legalized online gaming. Previously they were stupidly opposed to it in fear it would eat into their B&M business. Also it looks like the crazy Republicans who want to control what adults can do in their free time aren't going to do to well in the upcoming elections. I know the Washington state nonsense was done by democrats, but a few democratic represntatives have come out in favor of freedom, like Frank, and Conner, while I haven't really seen any Republicans come out in favor of online gaming, because they are afraid of losing the loony tune right wing religious nut votes that they depend on.

Jim Cramer also talked about gaming stocks a couple months ago on Mad Money and he said not to worry about the current proposed legislations. He said there was no way possible for them to stop online gaming and he also noted the big US based companys that are going to try and influence congress ($$$) to pass favorable legislation for them. I mean just look at horse racing. If they can get a loophole in this draconian Washington state law, I am pretty confident that Harrah's, MGM, etc., can get an exemption or two of their own in the future, and maybe get it all the way officaly legalized.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how the US can stop internet gambling.

It's already illegal, which hasn't stopped it.

The operators are mostly located in places like Gibraltar and Costa Rica - beyond the reach of American authorities.

Arresting players would mean arresting Americans, who're doing something in the privacy of their own homes, which would be perfectly legal, if they were doing it at the MGM Grand, or the Bellagio. Besides being unpopular, such prosecutions would be difficult, since some jurors would be sure to balk at them.

Attacking it on the funding level is another option. But they've already stopped Americans from using credit cards, and the gambling industry hardly skipped a beat. We all just switched to Neteller. Perhaps the Goodlatte bill will be more successful, but I don't know of any reason to think so. If they kill Neteller, something else will just pop up in its place.

I suppose they could try to block gambling sites, the way China blocks parts of the internet. But I doubt Americans would stand for it. Anyway, no one's even suggested it, yet.

So yeah- I agree with Cramer. I don't see how they can stop it. Perhaps the LV properties have realized that, and that's why they've switched their position -- if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

But I don't see how that can happen, either.

Suppose MGM Grand gets a license to offer internet games to Nevadans. How do they make sure none of their players are from CA, or Maine?

And if MGM does get a license from Nevada, doesn't it have a right to demand the state keep unlicensed casinos from competing with them? How can Nevada justify requiring MGM to get a license, while simultaneously allowing Party and 888 to offer the same games, without one?

Perhaps some of you will argue the states should just get out of the licensing & regulating business altogether. I don't agree with you, but even if I did, I can tell you it's not going to happen, either.

We're pretty much stuck with the situation, as is.

Which, given the alternatives, is not a bad thing, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, all this legislation is already behind schedule-it hasn't even reached the house floor yet-and the legislative calendar is abbreviated given this is an election.

[Jimmy The Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
(In this I'm talking about a sit and go tournament where you pay a buy-in and fee).

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm... in a SnG, or in any other tournament structure, all of your real money is put at risk before the first card is dealt. That's even more analagous to a horse race than a ring game. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I agree with the "advantage poker" sentiment; but the chief reasons have to do with (1) availability at all hours and (b) vastly lower rake.

[Jussurreal]

Yes the money is all put in before the game just like a horse race. BUT LIKE I SAID.......the poker bettor can change things during the game whereas once the race starts, the horse bettor has no control over the outcome. That was my whole point. It had nothing to do with when the money was bet, so I could have used tourneys or cash games. I just decided to use tourneys in my example.

Poker requires more skill than horse betting(or any other sports betting) because of the ability to directly control the event you bet on. I don't see how it's even debateable.

[aujoz]

[ QUOTE ]
Not trying to be argumenative, but how is 40 million american poker players a minority? (ESPN)


[/ QUOTE ]

A minority is less than half. There are more than 80 million Americans.

[Bilgefisher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's completely against american principles to ban a person from visiting a site on the internet(unless of course the site poses a risk to national security).

[/ QUOTE ]

Gambling websites do pose a risk to national security. They enable money laundering. They also pose a risk to civil order by creating a generation of addictive gamblers. Surely, you can see how the favorite pastime of a small minority is a small and reasonable sacrifice, necessary to maintain the security of our great country and our continued prosperity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously hope this post was a joke. Heck I'm all for protecting our borders, but not at the expense of my freedom. This just sounds like throwing the baby out with the bath water. While your at it, why don't we allow illegal home searches, stop all trade at the border (cause we know illegal items come in that way), and require all citizens to be barcoded for our safety.

I'm sorry if I sound like a liberal puke, but I wholeheartly disagree with banning all because of a few bad apples.

[HSB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Surely, you can see how the favorite pastime of a small minority is a small and reasonable sacrifice, necessary to maintain the security of our great country and our continued prosperity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not trying to be argumenative, but how is 40 million american poker players a minority? (ESPN)

[/ QUOTE ]

How is it not?

[Gregg777]

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I don't know how the US can stop internet gambling.

It's already illegal, which hasn't stopped it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No it is not, except in the state of Washington.