2 quickie hands from last night that confused me

[Wizzywig]

#1: Villain is 44/9/1.18

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($107.35)
Button ($41.25)
SB ($29.30)
BB ($88.78)
UTG <font color="red">villain</font> / ($78.65)
MP ($103.70)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($4) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, villain checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, SB calls $3, BB folds, villian calls $3.

Turn: ($13) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">villain bets $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $15</font>, SB folds, villian calls $10.

River: ($43) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">villain bets $15</font>, Hero ???

Can I call 4:1 here?


#2: Villain is 43/15/1.13

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (villain) ($75)
MP ($163.75)
Button ($100.83)
Hero ($91.75)
BB ($98)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. UTG (villain) posts a blind of $1. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG (villain) (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero (poster) raises to $4.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG (villain) calls $4.

Flop: ($11) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">villain raises to $25</font>, Hero ???

I know this is a common situation but I wasn't any less lost. This was his first hand after sitting down and I didn't feel like finding out if he had KQ or a set. Is this generally worth a call?

[thedustbustr]

hand 1: fold or raise preflop, call turn, call small river. as played, easy easy fold.

edit: QJ sucks, either play it as a suited connector for straight/flush value or don't play it at all. If you hit top pair you want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, forget about charging other draws, if they make it just fold. You are either dominated or beat a lot of the time on the turn, and when the flush hits, there is not many hands you beat.

hand 2: I like to bet the pot on drawing boards, it makes it more espensive to raise you. You have to call that raise on the flop but be very careful of a set. I'd bet the turn and fold to raise, and check/fold the river. I don't like to check/call the turn and river because raising is a cheaper way to get to showdown if he does not have a set.

[mikechops]

Hand 1.

Marginal call pre-flop. I'd definitely fold JQo to an UTG limp unless I had a read he was real loose.

Flop fine.

Turn. You had him on a flush draw trying to get a cheapish card? I think I'd just call here none the less. I don't think your hand is so strong it needs protecting.

River. Tempting odds but it's real hard to see what you beat.

Hand 2. Akward spot. Given his Agg I'd probably fold. Could be a set or K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifx /images/graemlins/diamond.gif If he had a higher aggression rating and he'd seen me making a lot of CBs - to the point where he might suspect me of bluffing - I'd call. Also I'd like to raise a little more on the flop. Make it PSB. If the flop hit his Kx, it's pretty hard to let go, but also it discourages him messing around with a flush draw.

[z28dreams]

Hand 1:
Preflop: This is ok I think

Flop: looks fine

Turn: I hate this raise. You're building a pot with top-pair and a Jack kicker. AQ, KQ, and sets are all way ahead of you. On top of that, the small blind still has to act after you raise, and could be setting up for a check-raise. For $5, I just call here.

River: Easy fold

Hand 2:

Without reads, you're as lost as everyone else here. With the Ace of diamonds, I think it's a slightly easier call since you at least have a backdoor flush draw.

[Wizzywig]

dust: why would you advocate raise or fold pre-flop if you only play it as a suited connector? For hand 2, calling the raise and leading the turn wouldn't have struck me for that hand. I'm thinking about working that in for TPTK hands.

mike: yeah, UTG was loose and I had JQs. I was indeed avoiding a cheap turn card for villain.


About that turn raise in hand 1, I tend to look for mega-loose tables and play a LAG style. They play so much junk that TPJK is almost never bad in that situation. Also been inviting more difficult, marginal situations to help myself improve but will avoid that spot next time.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
dust: why would you advocate raise or fold pre-flop if you only play it as a suited connector?

[/ QUOTE ]
I raise all my suited connecturs preflop. If the flop sucks half the time the cbet will take it down; if the flop hits then you already have a pot started and you have a much better ability to get it all in by the river.

[ QUOTE ]
For hand 2, calling the raise and leading the turn wouldn't have struck me for that hand. I'm thinking about working that in for TPTK hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll elaborate a little bit. I don't think you can fold that flop, many aggressive villains will raise with top pair worse kicker when the board is coordinated. I guess a case can be made for droppingit on the flop but at NL100 I don't think I can.

After you call the flop raise the pot is $61. You can bet $35 and fold to any aggression from this point on, losing at most $35 more to a set. You can also check/call $35 on the turn, but if you are calling the turn why would you fold the river? If you're ahead on the turn, you're also ahead on the river, so you have to check/call again. Just be careful not to get yourself pot committed on the turn (hence only 1/2 pot bet).

I think leading the turn is the cheapest way to find out if you are ahead.

[Bigmoney]

Hand 1 raise preflop, raise more on the turn, call the river.

Hand 2 fold to flop raise with no reads.

[Wizzywig]

Thanks for all the input. I've been trying to cut down on my stats (roughly 30/20) but didn't even think of raising QJs with a limper.

dust: you eliminate the field with SC's and play it like TP every time? As opposed to seeing a cheap family flop? Thanks for the advice on your hand 2 line. I hate the lost feeling of calling flop raises and c/c'ing down to avoid getting pot committed.

[thedustbustr]

[ QUOTE ]
dust: you eliminate the field with SC's and play it like TP every time? As opposed to seeing a cheap family flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a common misconception. It doesn't really matter how many people limp, they aren't all going to be coming along for the ride after the flop. The loss from losing a few more limpers and maybe one additional caller on the flop is made up from the ability to more easily get your stack in when you hit. I think this is pretty standard around here. If anyone else has any thoughts, go for it.

Edit: However, if it really is a family pot (as in 3+ limpers and I'm on the button) I'll probably just call. In your example there is only one limper, so raise it up. Hell, 50% of the time you will steal the blinds, and with Q high, that is +EV.

[Wizzywig]

I see your point. With a single limper, I would certainly fold something like 65s and I would guess that that would be the common line here.