God's Victim

[Exsubmariner]

You are going to bed and a car comes through your ceiling and lands on you. (http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060617/NEWS01/606170326/1011/NEWS05)

A buddy of mine sent me this.

Apparently, The car jumped a curb at a VERY high rate of speed, flew through the air, bounced off of several trees while spinning like a boomerang, and crashed through the roof in just the right spot to kill this poor kid.

Now, what the hell did this kid do to deserve this? The driver of the car is fine. I think it's kind of like the story of Lot's daughters in the bible. Apparently, God couldn't have taken the trouble to put the car just a few more feet over to miss the kid.

I want to hear the rationalizations from the true believers. Begin.

[Andrew Karpinski]

(I am an atheist).

God does not interfere with the day to day happenings on earth.

[Peter666]

I am a theist and God created and sustains natural laws which he rarely interferes with during the day to day happenings on earth.

The original question assumes that belief in God and belief in perfect justice in this life are one and the same. That is evidently not true.

Although it is possible the kid was masturbating and God punished him for it with a cruel death. We don't know.

[MidGe]

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Although it is possible the kid was masturbating and God punished him for it with a cruel death.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't miss it, can you, Peter? Your faith and your sense of justice is remarkable.

[bunny]

I wont claim to know the answer, but this is how I reconcile events like this with my belief in a loving God:

First, let me say that I dont think the kid did anything to deserve it. I think it is undeniable that people get away with bad things all the time - I cant imagine serial murderers living undetected for years and this guy being punished this way for some moral infraction. I think life is more complicated than: you do bad things -> bad things happen to you, you do good things -> good things happen to you.

The problem of evil seems like the hardest to answer for a theist. I have two answers - one valueless to a non-believer and the other at least understandable to them.

The first is that the "reason" behind such a thing is beyond me - I think of it as a tragedy and wish it hadnt happened. I also believe that God is looking after us in a "Big Picture" sense and trust that the world, albeit replete with such terrible events, is going to work out best in the long run. I can give some mild justifications for this (or rationalisations if you like) but to do so seems to imply that I know why it happened and the fact is I really dont. This answer cant be satisfying to a non-believer but is nonetheless part of my thinking when I consider these questions.

The second answer I have to the problem of evil is the existence of secondary goods. If we lived in an idyllic utopia with no suffering and where nobody went without then we would be unable to express a number of higher goods (higher in my opinion anyway). We couldnt feel compassion and sympathy if nobody suffered. We couldnt feel remorse and make reparations if we never did anything wrong. If this is correct, then the world with evil also has more good in it - I would also say there is a higher moral value on these secondary goods than on ones where no suffering is required (eg I think feeling sorry for someone who has suffered a tragedy is inherently "gooder" than being honest).

This argument is not immune from criticism, of course, but it's my best answer to the question "Why does stuff like this happen?"

[hmkpoker]

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Although it is possible the kid was masturbating and God punished him for it with a cruel death. We don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, really?

How am I still alive?

[Exsubmariner]

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The second answer I have to the problem of evil is the existence of secondary goods. If we lived in an idyllic utopia with no suffering and where nobody went without then we would be unable to express a number of higher goods (higher in my opinion anyway). We couldnt feel compassion and sympathy if nobody suffered. We couldnt feel remorse and make reparations if we never did anything wrong. If this is correct, then the world with evil also has more good in it - I would also say there is a higher moral value on these secondary goods than on ones where no suffering is required (eg I think feeling sorry for someone who has suffered a tragedy is inherently "gooder" than being honest).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have actually heard this argument before. I heard it from a Buddhist. Basically, there is no charity without suffering. It proceded the assertion that people should work to make the world better here and now rather than waiting for a more idillic afterlife.

[MidGe]

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... I heard it from a Buddhist. ...

[/ QUOTE ]

AFAIK, this is not in accord with basic buddhist philosophy! Buddhism primary aim is the elimination of suffering, not the opportunity to do so, nor the promise of a non suffering existence.

[Exsubmariner]

OK. The guy was a Christian who converted.

[PLOlover]

I'm pretty sure it's explicit in the bible that children can be punished for their parents crimes(sins).

It's pretty rough if you actually read the bible.

[madnak]

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It's pretty rough if you actually read the bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. Anyone who's actually read the Bible knows that God is perfectly merciful and compassionate.

[Beantown]

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Although it is possible the kid was masturbating and God punished him for it with a cruel death. We don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, really?

How is anyone still alive?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Lestat]

It's good to know that you have never had sinful sex in your life or committed any other sin on par with this.

How "holier than thou" does one have to be to think their god lets them off the hook while punishing others for comparable sins?

[Bigdaddydvo]

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Although it is possible the kid was masturbating and God punished him for it with a cruel death.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't miss it, can you, Peter? Your faith and your sense of justice is remarkable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope all of you can lighten up and appreciate Peter's sardonic sense of humor in this remark.

[bunny]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The second answer I have to the problem of evil is the existence of secondary goods. If we lived in an idyllic utopia with no suffering and where nobody went without then we would be unable to express a number of higher goods (higher in my opinion anyway). We couldnt feel compassion and sympathy if nobody suffered. We couldnt feel remorse and make reparations if we never did anything wrong. If this is correct, then the world with evil also has more good in it - I would also say there is a higher moral value on these secondary goods than on ones where no suffering is required (eg I think feeling sorry for someone who has suffered a tragedy is inherently "gooder" than being honest).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have actually heard this argument before. I heard it from a Buddhist. Basically, there is no charity without suffering. It proceded the assertion that people should work to make the world better here and now rather than waiting for a more idillic afterlife.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree with this conclusion also.

[LCposter]

Bunny hinted at this. A simple answer is that even though this fate seemed horrible, God may have been sparing him from a worse fate (say suffering for several years with a very painful and incurable cancer).

Of course, such an answer only raises similar questions such as: Why are some kids fated to get cancer while others are not?

In Christianity, this inequity can be resolved by observing that finite suffering is insignificant compared to eternal bliss.

In Buddhism/Hinduism, this inequity can be further justified as karmic consequences for sins of a previous life.

[madnak]

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In Christianity, this inequity can be resolved by observing that finite suffering is insignificant compared to eternal bliss.

[/ QUOTE ]

But by that reasoning, any finite crime is insignificant compared to eternal suffering.

[LCposter]

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But by that reasoning, any finite crime is insignificant compared to eternal suffering.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is absolutely correct. I cannot reconcile eternal punishment with finite crime. That is why I believe if there isn't reincarnation, that punishment must be finite. I've discussed this concept of a "redemptive purgatory" where the soul remains while cleansed of sin until it becomes ready to enter heaven.

I don't really want to repeat myself - I've laid out the theory a little more in the Heaven/Hell/Afterlife thread. If you want to respond to that theory, feel free to do so in either thread, although it's probably a little more germane in the heaven/hell thread.

[madnak]

I'm criticizing your justification of the Christian beliefs, not yours.

[Peter666]

The assumption being made here is that God dishes out the punishment. It can be equally true that people reject to associate with God in the afterlife and want to separate themselves from Him.

The punishment also may last forever, but it is not infinitely painful.

[madnak]

I think by definition, nobody can prefer to live in eternal suffering over eternal happiness. Now, if hell has eternal suffering but an even greater degree of eternal happiness, that could work. It'd be some bait-and-switch, wouldn't it?

[LCposter]

I think I understand your criticism, madnak, but it presupposes that one believes in both heaven and hell. I know several Christians who believe in heaven, but believe souls that do not enter heaven cease to exist (i.e. have no afterlife). In such a model, there is no eternal suffering for a finite crime, but there is still eternal bliss to negate any finite suffering on earth, no matter how great. That is what I was referring to when I said one could look at heaven as a means to rectify the misfortunes of earth. It doesn't necessitate (imo) a belief in eternal suffering in hell.

Such a model fits a benelovent God more than eternal suffering, but I still have difficulty accepting the fact that God would actively terminate an existence that was capable of salvation. It seems that a benelovent God must have infinite patience and give each soul infinite opportunity at redemption, which is how we arrive at the purgatory and/or reincarnation models.

[Peter666]

[ QUOTE ]
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Although it is possible the kid was masturbating and God punished him for it with a cruel death.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't miss it, can you, Peter? Your faith and your sense of justice is remarkable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope all of you can lighten up and appreciate Peter's sardonic sense of humor in this remark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank-you. Perhaps it is heavy consciences that inhibit the ability to lighten up. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[chezlaw]

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Although it is possible the kid was masturbating and God punished him for it with a cruel death.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't miss it, can you, Peter? Your faith and your sense of justice is remarkable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really hope all of you can lighten up and appreciate Peter's sardonic sense of humor in this remark.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank-you. Perhaps it is heavy consciences that inhibit the ability to lighten up. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
So all those posts where you seem to rejoice in the damnation of others is a humorous device to get the point across, when really you're uncomfortable with the damnation of those who disagree with you.

or is a device to hide your discomfort at the fact that you do rejoice in the damnation of those who disagree with you?

chez

[madnak]

I think he really is the Antichrist, and he's trying to get us all lined up against the Catholic Church.

[madnak]

To me they're barely Christians at all. Personally I think Christianity is too tied up in ugly beliefs and an ugly heritage too be credibly turned into a compassionate religion.

[IronUnkind]

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or is a device to hide your discomfort at the fact that you do rejoice in the damnation of those who disagree with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't obvious to you that he was joking?

[chezlaw]

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or is a device to hide your discomfort at the fact that you do rejoice in the damnation of those who disagree with you?

[/ QUOTE ]

It wasn't obvious to you that he was joking?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it was fairly obvious.

My post questions whether the humour was despite a distaste for the damanation of others or because of a lack of it.

Wasn't that obvious? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

chez

[Schmitty 87]

The problem with the "Big Picture" argument is that the big picture now rests on the death of an innocent child.

Another answer is that this kid will now be in heaven for eternity, which far outweighs the 70 or so earthly years taken from him. I have some questions about this explanation:

1) Doesn't it (a place that trivializes all human suffering) seem like such a human construction?

2) Assuming the kid does go to heaven and that's the proper explanation for his death, then what could this world possibly be for? Was the afterlife created through Jesus because this world (and giving humans free will) was a mistake?

3) Is it then beneficial in the end to be senselessly killed? As a child (innocent) or otherwise (never given an adequate chance to repent)?

[Peter666]

I wouldn't say that I rejoice in the damnation of others, and I wouldn't say I am uncomfortable with the damnation of those who don't agree with me. So I wouldn't say much.

[MidGe]

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I wouldn't say that I rejoice in the damnation of others, and I wouldn't say I am uncomfortable with the damnation of those who don't agree with me. So I wouldn't say much.

[/ QUOTE ]

You wouldn't say much, but you use a lot of words for it! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[godBoy]

All good questions Schmitty,

I agree with you in that taking a perspective of the big picture is hard to reconcile with a personal God that is said to know the number of hairs on our heads.

I get the feeling that we will never have the satisfying answer we would like to these questions..

Isaiah 55:8,9
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This is just one sentence and can't be expected to satisfy us. However it makes a good point - that from the limits that we are constrained to, we shouldn't expect to be able to understand or have all the answers.

[Peter666]

We may not be able to comprehend all of it in its entirety, but we are given some direction in understanding. Namely, all evil in this life is a result of Original Sin, and all people (good and bad) are subject to its consequences unless a miracle takes place. Those who choose to cooperate with God will be rewarded for it in the next life. Nothing in this life is guaranteed or final.

[MidGe]

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This is just one sentence and can't be expected to satisfy us. However it makes a good point - that from the limits that we are constrained to, we shouldn't expect to be able to understand or have all the answers.


[/ QUOTE ]

And therfore could expect to be making a mistake in our beliefs too.

[chezlaw]

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We may not be able to comprehend all of it in its entirety, but we are given some direction in understanding. Namely, all evil in this life is a result of Original Sin, and all people (good and bad) are subject to its consequences unless a miracle takes place. Those who choose to cooperate with God will be rewarded for it in the next life. Nothing in this life is guaranteed or final.

[/ QUOTE ]
No understanding is given. The doctrine of original sin is a stunningly perverted view of morality.

chez

[chezlaw]

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I wouldn't say that I rejoice in the damnation of others, and I wouldn't say I am uncomfortable with the damnation of those who don't agree with me. So I wouldn't say much.

[/ QUOTE ]
Clearly you have in many posts rejoiced in the belief of the damnation of others. You also worship at the foot of a beast who would eternally damn most of humanity.

How much more is there to say?

chez

[Schmitty 87]

[ QUOTE ]
Isaiah 55:8,9
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This is just one sentence and can't be expected to satisfy us. However it makes a good point - that from the limits that we are constrained to, we shouldn't expect to be able to understand or have all the answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if we can't expect to have all the answers, the only tool we have to find God is our God-given earthly reason. IMO, the dangerous part is not trying to find the answers, but to create satisfying ones just to have them. So, I think we must question not only "rational" explanations but also "faith-based" explanations. My personal problem with this, of course, is that I wonder if I can have true faith while always questioning it.