has this been asked before?

[koolsavas]

say you hit to 15 or 16 against a dealer 10. chart says surrender but i have three cards. every other box near it on the chart says hit, but "surrender" is a bit like "give up". better to stand and pray or to hit and likely go over? i consider this to be the only time i get a choice as to what to do, but most times i hit (and most of the time i hit a ten) since it is suggested in the chart by all the hit boxes around it. any thoughts/wisdom?

[MicroBob]

do what the chart says?

You should hit 15 or 16 vs. a 10.

If surrender is an option then you do that instead. Surrender is definitely preferrable if you can do that.

[koolsavas]

i was just saying since the chart says "surrender" that basically means it ain't worth trying, so it might be more likely that the dealer's down card requires her to hit than the card you hit will keep you in the game. i understand on a non-surrender chart it would say to hit, but by the fact that you should surrender if available, that maybe you should still not take a chance by hitting. i mean at least with 16 you might win, but hitting to catch a 5 or lower will put you over more often than not, and if you indeed hit and hit a bust card, then if the dealer had had to hit she might well have busted instead of you. see what i'm saying? i think it is mostly the meaning of the word "surrender" that made me take this line of reasoning. but like i said, whenever i have hit to a 16, hitting again busts me like 95% of the time. that being the case, i feel i should just stand and see what happens. if we start listening to computers now, they'll overrun us in 20 years! say goodbye to humanity!

[Photoc]

I think this is what you are looking for:
http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix3c.html

BJ exceptions for SINGLE DECK
Double deck and shoe can be found on the blackjack pages.

[WLVRYN]

Better to surrender and get half your bet back than to hit and get a card that keeps you in the game only 5 or 6 out of 13 times. Not too many places I know let you surrender after taking a card though (correct me if I'm wrong because I want to be playing there). Also, not surrendering and standing has a worse expected outcome than hitting, so dont do that.

[SlightlyMad]

Look up appendix 5 on Wizard Of Odds under the Blackjack section. The expected return on a hit, using basic strategy for those four squares (15 vs. 10, 16 vs. 9, 10 or Ace) is under -0.50. Surrendering (taking a guaranteed -0.50) is marginally better than hitting; in the long run, you are better off taking the surrender in those situations.

But standing on those 15 and 16s is horrible (see standing on 0-16 vs. 9, 10 and Ace on the first table in Appendix 1). Standing on 16 v 10 doesn't seem like that big a mistake (-6 betting units for every 10000 times it comes up); the expectation of the stand versus the hit is extremely close. But, in the end, you're better off hitting the 16s, especially against the 7,8,9 and Ace. It feels wrong, but it's better in the long run.

12 through 16 will be where you lose most of your money in Blackjack and they're so frequent that you have to play it optimally to keep afloat and ahead of the drains on your deposit bonuses in the long run.

Good luck!

[jds1201]

i think maybe the OP is confused by the term "surrender". Surrender is a separate option from hit/stay that allows you to take back half your bet and give up your hand. it's a good move in cases like this where your expected loss is more than half a bet.

[Halo7]

Since I know he is using the chart from my site (which just has an R in the 16 vs a T box), I know the question he is asking is if he has a 12 with a ten up, then hits and catches a 4, then what does he do (since the chart just says surrender 16 vs a T rather than R/H like some of them do). I may redo my charts to reflect this since the question has come up. When I made them up, I figured it was obvious what to hit, but not everyone has been playing BJ for years I guess hehe. In general though, if you can't surrender because you have more than 2 cards, you hit (exception being the 17 vs A in a game where they hit soft 17).

Halo7

[UATrewqaz]

The chart is based on math and EV per play.

you surrender when the chart says to surrender because in the long run that is what will result in you having the most money.

[ QUOTE ]
but "surrender" is a bit like "give up"

[/ QUOTE ]

that's like saying you should never fold in poker, because it's like giving up....

Don't be emotionally affected by the word "surrender" which has a negative association to most people. Think of it as "escaping" or "salvaging" or whatever.

[koolsavas]

thanks guys. slight i liked your post, and UAT thanks for addressing the vocabulary issue, although in terms of poker it's easy to see when giving up is advantageous, and since surrendering is advantageous in those situations, maybe standing (or in poker checking) would be the way to go if surrendering/folding is not available to you. like when you have T3 against a dealer 7 and you hit it to 15, you treat it like you were dealt a two-card 15, so treating my three card "surrender" hand as if they were two would mean to not even try, so why try with three cards? but i'm not trying to spark a new debate, just trying to hone in on exactly what i meant. halo7, yes i knew it was going to be a hit underneath surrender, but i also figured that especially like 16 against a ten up would be very marginal. i always knew it was hit, but it just felt a bit wrong since i never seem to stay under 21 when i do. thanks for not ripping me apart everyone. i think the bonus forums are nicer than the poker ones. something about proving how smart they are and belittling n00bs/donks i reckon. see ya!

mods you can close this thread if you want

[Halo7]

FWIW, the 16 VS a T is a very very marginal hit. So much so, that if you are counting cards and the count is the least bit positive, you don't hit it any more (assuming you can't surrender of course). What I tell people is if you absolutely HATE busting 16 vs a T, standing on it every time would hardly effect your results. The other example you gave would be a big mistake though (13 vs 7 up). You would want to hit that one every time.

Halo7