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sedg
06-14-2006, 11:23 PM
Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible
by Hugh Ross, Ph.D.
Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!

God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance.

The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.

As economy does not permit an explanation of all the Biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled, what follows in a discussion of a few that exemplify the high degree of specificity, the range of projection, and/or the "supernature" of the predicted events. Readers are encouraged to select others, as well, and to carefully examine their historicity.


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(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)*


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(2) In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)


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(3) In the fifth century B.C. a prophet named Zechariah declared that the Messiah would be betrayed for the price of a slave—thirty pieces of silver, according to Jewish law-and also that this money would be used to buy a burial ground for Jerusalem's poor foreigners (Zechariah 11:12-13). Bible writers and secular historians both record thirty pieces of silver as the sum paid to Judas Iscariot for betraying Jesus, and they indicate that the money went to purchase a "potter's field," used—just as predicted—for the burial of poor aliens (Matthew 27:3-10).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1011.)


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(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1013.)


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(5) The prophet Isaiah foretold that a conqueror named Cyrus would destroy seemingly impregnable Babylon and subdue Egypt along with most of the rest of the known world. This same man, said Isaiah, would decide to let the Jewish exiles in his territory go free without any payment of ransom (Isaiah 44:28; 45:1; and 45:13). Isaiah made this prophecy 150 years before Cyrus was born, 180 years before Cyrus performed any of these feats (and he did, eventually, perform them all), and 80 years before the Jews were taken into exile.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1015.)


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(6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 109.)


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(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1018.)


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(8) The prophet Moses foretold (with some additions by Jeremiah and Jesus) that the ancient Jewish nation would be conquered twice and that the people would be carried off as slaves each time, first by the Babylonians (for a period of 70 years), and then by a fourth world kingdom (which we know as Rome). The second conqueror, Moses said, would take the Jews captive to Egypt in ships, selling them or giving them away as slaves to all parts of the world. Both of these predictions were fulfilled to the letter, the first in 607 B.C. and the second in 70 A.D. God's spokesmen said, further, that the Jews would remain scattered throughout the entire world for many generations, but without becoming assimilated by the peoples or of other nations, and that the Jews would one day return to the land of Palestine to re-establish for a second time their nation (Deuteronomy 29; Isaiah 11:11-13; Jeremiah 25:11; Hosea 3:4-5 and Luke 21:23-24).

This prophetic statement sweeps across 3500 years of history to its complete fulfillment—in our lifetime.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 120.)


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(9) Jeremiah predicted that despite its fertility and despite the accessibility of its water supply, the land of Edom (today a part of Jordan) would become a barren, uninhabited wasteland (Jeremiah 49:15-20; Ezekiel 25:12-14). His description accurately tells the history of that now bleak region.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 105.)


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(10) Joshua prophesied that Jericho would be rebuilt by one man. He also said that the man's eldest son would die when the reconstruction began and that his youngest son would die when the work reached completion (Joshua 6:26). About five centuries later this prophecy found its fulfillment in the life and family of a man named Hiel (I Kings 16:33-34).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 107).


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(11) The day of Elijah's supernatural departure from Earth was predicted unanimously—and accurately, according to the eye-witness account—by a group of fifty prophets (II Kings 2:3-11).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 109).


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(12) Jahaziel prophesied that King Jehoshaphat and a tiny band of men would defeat an enormous, well-equipped, well-trained army without even having to fight. Just as predicted, the King and his troops stood looking on as their foes were supernaturally destroyed to the last man (II Chronicles 20).

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 108).


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(13) One prophet of God (unnamed, but probably Shemiah) said that a future king of Judah, named Josiah, would take the bones of all the occultic priests (priests of the "high places") of Israel's King Jeroboam and burn them on Jeroboam's altar (I Kings 13:2 and II Kings 23:15-18). This event occurred approximately 300 years after it was foretold.

(Probability of chance fulfillment = 1 in 1013).


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Since these thirteen prophecies cover mostly separate and independent events, the probability of chance occurrence for all thirteen is about 1 in 10138 (138 equals the sum of all the exponents of 10 in the probability estimates above). For the sake of putting the figure into perspective, this probability can be compared to the statistical chance that the second law of thermodynamics will be reversed in a given situation (for example, that a gasoline engine will refrigerate itself during its combustion cycle or that heat will flow from a cold body to a hot body)—that chance = 1 in 1080. Stating it simply, based on these thirteen prophecies alone, the Bible record may be said to be vastly more reliable than the second law of thermodynamics. Each reader should feel free to make his own reasonable estimates of probability for the chance fulfillment of the prophecies cited here. In any case, the probabilities deduced still will be absurdly remote.

Given that the Bible proves so reliable a document, there is every reason to expect that the remaining 500 prophecies, those slated for the "time of the end," also will be fulfilled to the last letter. Who can afford to ignore these coming events, much less miss out on the immeasurable blessings offered to anyone and everyone who submits to the control of the Bible's author, Jesus Christ? Would a reasonable person take lightly God's warning of judgment for those who reject what they know to be true about Jesus Christ and the Bible, or who reject Jesus' claim on their lives?

*The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists. As an example of their method of estimation, consider their calculations for this first prophecy cited:

Since the Messiah's ministry could conceivably begin in any one of about 5000 years, there is, then, one chance in about 5000 that his ministry could begin in 26 A.D.
Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10.
Relative to the second destruction of Jerusalem, this execution has roughly an even chance of occurring before or after that event, that is, one chance in 2.
Hence, the probability of chance fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 10 x 2, which is 1 in 100,000, or 1 in 105.

CallMeIshmael
06-14-2006, 11:24 PM
This. Will. Be. Fun.

New001
06-14-2006, 11:26 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This. Will. Be. Fun.

[/ QUOTE ]
Only if "fun" means "absolutely terrible" in Canadian.

evolvedForm
06-14-2006, 11:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce),



[/ QUOTE ]

What if satan was really Paul and all the "Christians" go straight to hell, while only Christ and the apostles get to dwell in everlasting glory?

Interesting thought, huh? And more than plausible considering Paul's history.

ZenMasterFlex
06-14-2006, 11:32 PM
What is the probability, that in the time of the bible "miracles" water to wine, 5 fish feeds 5000, writing on the wall, People being taken up to heaven, The red sea parting, manna from heaven, Lazarus being brought back from death, blind men healed, Sampson and his hair, The great flood, God actually audibly speaking to men, Daniel in the den of lions, The sun standing still for a whole day, burning bushes, etc. etc. etc.

That not ONE miracle ever happens when I'm around? I just don't get it. Please explain?

atrifix
06-14-2006, 11:38 PM
It amazes me what people can get Ph.D.s for these days.

Hopey
06-14-2006, 11:58 PM
Well, you've convinced me. Sign me up. Do I need to get re-circumcised?

ZenMasterFlex
06-15-2006, 12:04 AM
I now understand how people get 10,000 posts.

atrifix
06-15-2006, 12:09 AM
Yep, only 9,698 to go.

KeysrSoze
06-15-2006, 12:16 AM
Using later chapters in a book as proof of the veracity of predictions in earlier chapters in the same book... this is wrong on so many levels, do you see why?

Andrew Karpinski
06-15-2006, 12:35 AM
Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur.

Anyone else stop reading here?

CallMeIshmael
06-15-2006, 01:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur.

Anyone else stop reading here?

[/ QUOTE ]


Nah, some of this was GOLD

bunny
06-15-2006, 01:56 AM
I find it hard to believe this was presented as a genuine defence of the bible. Is this guy known to anyone here?

AceofSpades
06-15-2006, 03:01 AM
So why can't Satan have 100% accuracy on prophecies too?
Because after all, if a prophecy doesn't come true, it's not really from Satan at all right?

New001
06-15-2006, 03:13 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to believe this was presented as a genuine defence of the bible. Is this guy known to anyone here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Wikipedia: Hugh Ross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Ross_%28creationist%29).

He looks like a real person, and it's certainly possible he wrote this. Never heard of the guy before this though.

bunny
06-15-2006, 03:25 AM
Thanks - I'm amazed he has got as far as he has in science given the quote from the OP (assuming it is an accurate quote). Given his background in physics and astronomy I would have expected him to have a firm grasp of probability and statistics - I find it hard to believe he can honestly put forward the views attributed to him.

MidGe
06-15-2006, 03:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively)

[/ QUOTE ]

How so, conservatively? LOL

I am not sure about the Ph.D., claimed by the author but I doubt that it is in anything as hard as home economics and that it comes from a recognised institution. Probably a mail order Ph.D.!

godBoy
06-15-2006, 05:01 AM
disregarding all his crap probabilities...

The prophecies in the old testament(Jewish bible) would have nothing to gain from changing the scriptures to fit with the followers of a man they thought was not the messiah.

It's not the same book - seperate (two testaments)..
I'm not defending the OP by any means.

06-15-2006, 08:29 AM
A lot of posters thus far are dismissing this book out of hand (I think it is dubious but dismissing it out of hand is not a rigorous approach).

David Sklansky has, in another thread, stated that psychically foretelling the future could point to the existence of God, whereas mere clairvoyance would not. I think he then asked, "Do you see why?"

Regarding this book by Hugh Long, my biggest questions would revolve around:

1. The degree of accuracy of the interpretations of the biblical prophecies

2. The accuracy of the Bible's collected works (the Bible contains many old religious writings, and perhaps somewhat arbitrarily, does not contain many other related old religious writings which now are known as the Apocrypha).

IF 2000 out of 2500 of the prophecies outlined in the Old Testament have indeed come true (as the author claims), and the other 500 prophecies have not yet come true or have not yet been disproven, then that would be strong evidence for the veracity of the Bible--provided the following:

a) that the writings are genuine

b) that they were not cherry-picked at a later date for prophetic demonstration

c) that the prophecies are being interpreted accurately

d) that the prophecies were not sufficiently vague as to be able to fit a wide variety of scenarios.

The author's specific math is not the point. He doesn't need to closely estimate or calculate probabilities for such events, because if the above provisions are met, and if ~2000/2500 prophecies have come true while the other 500 prohecies have not yet been proven or disproven, the chances of pure luck creating such results would be infinitesimal.

I would hope that the author spends much time in the book addressing matters bearing on the above concerns. I haven't read the book or the review, but my guess is, he doesn't.

One last point. The above does not take into account a possible influencing factor, and that is, possible self-fulfilling bias. For instance, if Jesus believed in the old prophecies, and believed himself to be the Christ, he may have acted in such a manner as to help bring about fulfillment of the prophecy. Regarding wars, etc. also: if certain wars or conquerings had in part a religious basis, the religious writings may in fact have played a part in creating the conditions for fulfillment of the prophecy. So, some prophecies may have helped fulfill themselves, depending on the nature of the prophecies and depending upon what people believed.

Alex-db
06-15-2006, 08:32 AM
So, the writers of the New Testament, Jesus'/the Church's PR guys, choose to pen stories that suggested he met the prophecies neccesary to label him as the Messiah.

If we can confirm a prophecy beforehand and then see it fulfilled that would be interesting. Even one that has already happened, but recently enough to verify the account and prophecy separately.

One problem with prohecies is that given an infinite timescale their likelihood of occuring approches 1, and they nearly never have objective facts.

I got in a long discussion with a Nostodamus fan about his 'prophecies'. Apparantly fans believe that he was so gifted he realised his predicitions could harm society, so he still made them, but he just changed the dates, times, locations, people and events involved in order to obscure their meaning. As long as you accept that then all his prophecies are 100% accurate.

MidGe
06-15-2006, 08:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
One problem with prohecies is that given an infinite timescale their likelihood of occuring approches 1, and they nearly never have objective facts.


[/ QUOTE ]

chrisnice
06-15-2006, 10:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of posters thus far are dismissing this book out of hand (I think it is dubious but dismissing it out of hand is not a rigorous approach).

David Sklansky has, in another thread, stated that psychically foretelling the future could point to the existence of God, whereas mere clairvoyance would not. I think he then asked, "Do you see why?"

Regarding this book by Hugh Long, my biggest questions would revolve around:

1. The degree of accuracy of the interpretations of the biblical prophecies

2. The accuracy of the Bible's collected works (the Bible contains many old religious writings, and perhaps somewhat arbitrarily, does not contain many other related old religious writings which now are known as the Apocrypha).

IF 2000 out of 2500 of the prophecies outlined in the Old Testament have indeed come true (as the author claims), and the other 500 prophecies have not yet come true or have not yet been disproven, then that would be strong evidence for the veracity of the Bible--provided the following:

a) that the writings are genuine

b) that they were not cherry-picked at a later date for prophetic demonstration

c) that the prophecies are being interpreted accurately

d) that the prophecies were not sufficiently vague as to be able to fit a wide variety of scenarios.

The author's specific math is not the point. He doesn't need to closely estimate or calculate probabilities for such events, because if the above provisions are met, and if ~2000/2500 prophecies have come true while the other 500 prohecies have not yet been proven or disproven, the chances of pure luck creating such results would be infinitesimal.

I would hope that the author spends much time in the book addressing matters bearing on the above concerns. I haven't read the book or the review, but my guess is, he doesn't.

One last point. The above does not take into account a possible influencing factor, and that is, possible self-fulfilling bias. For instance, if Jesus believed in the old prophecies, and believed himself to be the Christ, he may have acted in such a manner as to help bring about fulfillment of the prophecy. Regarding wars, etc. also: if certain wars or conquerings had in part a religious basis, the religious writings may in fact have played a part in creating the conditions for fulfillment of the prophecy. So, some prophecies may have helped fulfill themselves, depending on the nature of the prophecies and depending upon what people believed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heres the thing, you can dismiss his claims out of hand. If the bible is 100% true, as the article states, then you need faith. God has said that he will not prove to anyone with scientific rigor that he exists.

You cant claim that a book which says Gods existence will never be proved by wordly means, proves Gods existence by worldly means.

AceofSpades
06-15-2006, 11:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Heres the thing, you can dismiss his claims out of hand. If the bible is 100% true, as the article states, then you need faith. God has said that he will not prove to anyone with scientific rigor that he exists.

You cant claim that a book which says Gods existence will never be proved by wordly means, proves Gods existence by worldly means.

[/ QUOTE ]

???. Assuming the bible to be true, Thomas got a pretty scientific proof....

LadyWrestler
06-15-2006, 11:34 PM
"God has said that he will not prove to anyone with scientific rigor that he exists."

LOL. Where in the Bible did God say that?

bigpooch
06-15-2006, 11:50 PM
Well, technically speaking, Thomas (called Didymus and
whence the term "doubting Thomas" originated) did not
believe that Yeshua ("Jesus", although I think that is an
inappropriate rendition of his name) was seen by the other
disciples. The appropriate text to read (in proper context)
is from Chapter 20 of John, verses 19 to 31 (the end of the
chapter); actually, it's best to read all of Chapter 20 to
see everything in its proper light.

But bear in mind that the Johannine gospel was written
later than the synoptic gospels and there is clear evidence
of editing.

06-16-2006, 12:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of posters thus far are dismissing this book out of hand (I think it is dubious but dismissing it out of hand is not a rigorous approach).

David Sklansky has, in another thread, stated that psychically foretelling the future could point to the existence of God, whereas mere clairvoyance would not. I think he then asked, "Do you see why?"

Regarding this book by Hugh Long, my biggest questions would revolve around:

1. The degree of accuracy of the interpretations of the biblical prophecies

2. The accuracy of the Bible's collected works (the Bible contains many old religious writings, and perhaps somewhat arbitrarily, does not contain many other related old religious writings which now are known as the Apocrypha).

IF 2000 out of 2500 of the prophecies outlined in the Old Testament have indeed come true (as the author claims), and the other 500 prophecies have not yet come true or have not yet been disproven, then that would be strong evidence for the veracity of the Bible--provided the following:

a) that the writings are genuine

b) that they were not cherry-picked at a later date for prophetic demonstration

c) that the prophecies are being interpreted accurately

d) that the prophecies were not sufficiently vague as to be able to fit a wide variety of scenarios.

The author's specific math is not the point. He doesn't need to closely estimate or calculate probabilities for such events, because if the above provisions are met, and if ~2000/2500 prophecies have come true while the other 500 prohecies have not yet been proven or disproven, the chances of pure luck creating such results would be infinitesimal.

I would hope that the author spends much time in the book addressing matters bearing on the above concerns. I haven't read the book or the review, but my guess is, he doesn't.

One last point. The above does not take into account a possible influencing factor, and that is, possible self-fulfilling bias. For instance, if Jesus believed in the old prophecies, and believed himself to be the Christ, he may have acted in such a manner as to help bring about fulfillment of the prophecy. Regarding wars, etc. also: if certain wars or conquerings had in part a religious basis, the religious writings may in fact have played a part in creating the conditions for fulfillment of the prophecy. So, some prophecies may have helped fulfill themselves, depending on the nature of the prophecies and depending upon what people believed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heres the thing, you can dismiss his claims out of hand. If the bible is 100% true, as the article states, then you need faith. God has said that he will not prove to anyone with scientific rigor that he exists.

You cant claim that a book which says Gods existence will never be proved by wordly means, proves Gods existence by worldly means.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's really a different question than what I am discussing.

JohnnyHumongous
06-16-2006, 05:39 AM
I wonder if people realize that Jesus read the scriptures himself as a young boy (he was noted as a gifted student of the scriptures). When he rides an ass into Jerusalem, "fulfilling prophecy", he was fully aware of the fact because he himself was completely versed in the scriptures. Same goes for many other so-called fulfillments of prophecy.

CORed
06-16-2006, 11:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
disregarding all his crap probabilities...

The prophecies in the old testament(Jewish bible) would have nothing to gain from changing the scriptures to fit with the followers of a man they thought was not the messiah.

It's not the same book - seperate (two testaments)..
I'm not defending the OP by any means.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got the sequence backwards. the Gospels were written to fit the Old Testament prophecies.

godBoy
06-17-2006, 09:19 PM
There were things that can't of been fudged.. The lineage of the messiah, the place of birth.. I don't want to see more links to jesusneverexisted.com, the more research is done on it, confirms his existence.

LadyWrestler
06-17-2006, 10:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Well, technically speaking, Thomas (called Didymus and
whence the term "doubting Thomas" originated) did not
believe that Yeshua ("Jesus", although I think that is an
inappropriate rendition of his name) was seen by the other
disciples. The appropriate text to read (in proper context)
is from Chapter 20 of John, verses 19 to 31 (the end of the
chapter); actually, it's best to read all of Chapter 20 to
see everything in its proper light.

But bear in mind that the Johannine gospel was written
later than the synoptic gospels and there is clear evidence
of editing.

[/ QUOTE ]

What clear evidence?

Copernicus
06-18-2006, 12:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
There were things that can't of been fudged.. The lineage of the messiah, the place of birth.. I don't want to see more links to jesusneverexisted.com, the more research is done on it, confirms his existence.

[/ QUOTE ]


to take the easy one, place of birth, you do realize that there is considerable dispute about jesus' actual place of birth, and strong indications that the scene of the nativity was changed to fit the Jewish beliefs of where the messiah would be born? lots of room for fudge in a work of fiction like the bible.

CORed
06-20-2006, 05:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
There were things that can't of been fudged.. The lineage of the messiah, the place of birth.. I don't want to see more links to jesusneverexisted.com, the more research is done on it, confirms his existence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why couldn't these have been fudged? There is pretty much no independant contemporary evidence for anything in the Gospels, not even the crucifixion, fro which there should have been records. The Gospels seem to have been written well after the crucifixion. I think it's a tossup as to whether Jesus was completely mythical or just somebody that wasn't much noticed in his own time. There are also some things in the gospels that almost certainly didn't happen, like the Slaughter of the Innocents, the tax/census or whatever that is supposed to have taken Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem, and the Star of Bethlehem. I think it's very likely that these were fudged to fit Old Testament prophecy. If you have any refutation of this, I'd love to see it.