Men and Women

[evolvedForm]

Or should I say "women and men?"

*Begin Gross Generalizations and Poorly Researched Speculations that are Nonetheless Almost Entirely True.

Is it true that women today view themselves as being so much smarter than men? I find this to be so, and I offer an explanation. The woman’s movement has triumphed so successfully that women are now brainwashed into thinking that they can and should easily trick their husbands and boyfriends into doing all kinds of things for them. That men are just big-headed, sex-crazed apes who can and should be manipulated by the "smart woman" for the good of the relationship.

And on the flip side of this, men have been brainwashed into accepting this nonsense and often happily playing the idiot. Humans are social animals, and we’ll do just about anything to fit in. So if it’s cool for a guy in school to skip class, act up, he’ll do it. If it’s uncool to do homework, take part in extra-curricular activities, he won’t do it.

But girls, they are encouraged to no end in schools these days. All the female teachers I ever had grossly favored girls. (This is no doubt a biased perception, but I saw it enough to be convinced of its truth). What other explanations can there be for the tremendously growing advantage in women attending college and college degrees awarded to women?(stats would be helpful).

It’s not biological. Biologically men are better at contemplating things in depth, while women are better at bridging the gap between several concepts. If one of these is an advantage for education, then it depends on the type of education given. While it may be that our current educational structure favors women, I don’t think that is the key here. However, what does favor women is the lack of physical education classes and recesses in schools these days. Boys are far more active and they need to let off steam. Girls fare better sitting in class all day long.

So if the reasons are not biological, they are probably social. It’s social conditioning that has caused men to view themselves as dumb and women to view themselves as smart. Over time (and in this case it didn’t take long) people change their views on things. Normally we think of this particular change as “liberation.” But what other consequences, besides liberation, have arisen? For one, it has caused women to look contemptuously upon their mates, failing to see the virtue he brings to the table. And many women are shortsighted and quick to indulge in the media’s flattery. Many men are weak and incapable of standing up to their women.

The unhealthy and negative thing here is not the fact that women have gained acceptance – that is a good thing. It is that women lost their respect for men as soon as they got some power. Men no longer know how to be men, and women, well, they aren’t quite worth being men for.

*End Gross Generalizations and Poorly Researched Speculations that are Nonetheless Almost Entirely True.

[MidGe]

Heya evolvedform,

Interesting post. I woill not argue with,but disagree with totally. I may accept only one or two points which are obvious, at least to me. I am really interested is this is USA mainstream thought. I thought it possible to have such notions in rare circumstances like real isolated redneck backward location, but hope this is not a portent of things to come!

Anyway, interesting if honest, and surely food for thought.

[atrifix]

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What other explanations can there be for the tremendously growing advantage in women attending college and college degrees awarded to women?(stats would be helpful).

[/ QUOTE ]

Women make up about half of all college students. Despite this, they are still heavily outnumbered in undergraduate programs in math and sciences, and even more outnumbered in those graduate programs.

[Fly]

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What other explanations can there be for the tremendously growing advantage in women attending college and college degrees awarded to women?(stats would be helpful).

[/ QUOTE ]

Women make up about half of all college students. Despite this, they are still heavily outnumbered in undergraduate programs in math and sciences, and even more outnumbered in those graduate programs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Geee, I wonder why? I bet its because the last things those nerds want is to be around girls!

[ElaineMonster]

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Gross Generalizations and Poorly Researched Speculations that are Not At All True.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[Peter666]

Women may think they're smart, but they all end up on Dr. Phil in the end.

[illusionS]

Now hold on just a second.

What exactly are these "smart women" that you speak of? Never heard of such a thing.

[MidGe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gross Generalizations and Poorly Researched Speculations that are Not At All True.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely

[AceofSpades]

If you replaced all that stuff about school differences with the idea that men are considered an ok target by tv media for any lame sexist ridicule but women are pretty much untouchable in that regard, and it is not considered poor taste to protray men to be fat, stupid, oafs that are helpless unless they are manipulated constantly by smarter females.

Then I'd say you were right..

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Gross Generalizations and Poorly Researched Speculations that are Not At All True.


[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, the guy's dead on

[FlFishOn]

"Women make up about half of all college students. "

I'm faily sure it's now ~55/45. This is a big difference.

[FlFishOn]

The last available target for ridicule, straight, maybe Christian white men.

[FlFishOn]

[ QUOTE ]
Women may think they're smart, but they all end up on Dr. Phil in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

...or watching him.

[evolvedForm]

Okay, I've heard a few replies and I want to address some common misconceptions. First, I pointed out that I was making generalizations: not all women are brainwashed so easily, and there are many, many respectful relationships out there.

Second, I should make a point I failed to add in my OP. Maybe what's really bad is the way men and women are portrayed in the prescriptive texts of society: self-help, Dr.Phil, and all the so-called "experts." They often base their assumptions, it seems to me, on stereotypes, or "the average man." This kind of creates a circular affect of assuming a kind of person, treating him in a certain way, and then in fact creating him in real life. For we are to a large degree impacted by these prescriptive discourses.

If everyone practiced REASON we may get out of this mess, but that isn't likely to happen.

Thirdly, to speak to those who may envision this as a sexist post, or me a small-minded bigot, let me assure you I am all for the equality of women. The point here is to get past political correctness in the name of getting to the truth. The truth I'm trying to find is the consequences of this equality of women, along surely with other causes. Then we can hopefully fix some things without going back to the old way!.

It's the psychology of women involved with this process of gaining power that is in question. What happens when they gain a little power? It seems to me that often the case is that they lose respect for men. They feel they can do it all without men (and the media definitely pushes this idea: look at movies with independent, fearless zombie-killing women. Does it bother me? No. Does it not tick with reality? Yes, that's it.) This in turn causes women to lose the feeling that they need men for anything besides reproduction and support. But men can be much more valuable than that.

Boss is pissed, more later.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
If you replaced all that stuff about school differences with the idea that men are considered an ok target by tv media for any lame sexist ridicule but women are pretty much untouchable in that regard, and it is not considered poor taste to protray men to be fat, stupid, oafs that are helpless unless they are manipulated constantly by smarter females.

Then I'd say you were right..

[/ QUOTE ]

Very, very true. There is an interesting book on this very subject, called "Spreading Misandry : the teaching of contempt for men in popular culture."

If you look at how men are portrayed on TV, esp. in sitcoms and commercials, they are usually portrayed as either complete idiots, or well-meaning but dimwitted boobs. On the contrary, the women are usually portrayed as the smarter, long-suffering wife who has learned to grin and bear her husband's stupidity.

Whether this bothers you or not is another issue. Guys are the first ones to laugh at Homer Simpson or The King of Queens or those dumb guys who pray to the magic fridge in the Budweiser commercials. I think it's ok for us men to laugh at ourselves, we know we act dumb sometimes. But it is a dangerous road when it is considered OK to commonly portray an entire gender as intellectually inferior.

[evolvedForm]

Midge, we really are discussing the state of things in the US, so my observations may not hold at all in Australia. Like I said, it's more of a cultural phenomenon than a biological one.

Your subtle implication that this is redneck thought is unfounded. I am 100% sure women deserve equal status as men in every way. BUT, for the purposes of a philosophical/psychological investigation, it would be best to look beyond our consciences, so we can see what the current consequences are; then, we can try to fix some things that aren't right.

[diebitter]

You got turned down again, right?

[JohnnyHumongous]

[ QUOTE ]
You got turned down again, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

So between you, MidGe and ElaineMonster we get 3 short quippy posts that just demean the points others have brought here and don't add any real substance. Thanks for your contribution.

Why do you people trip around these forums 'enforcing' the liberal norms by posting in this way? I didn't grow up in a family where the liberal way of thinking was taken as status quo. Thus I'm taken aback by the tone of people in the US and on these boards who talk about these issues like they are so clearly black and white, and the liberal standard position is so clearly correct.

Frankly I pity you guys and guys like MidGe who will clearly never have a passionate romantic relationship where you are the man and she is the woman, complementing each other perfectly with your respective masculine and feminine qualities. Instead you will end up with a woman who is more or less a man with a box, because you have deceived yourself into thinking that's what's right and that's what you should have. Well have fun with that. At least you toed the (liberal) party line your whole life and didn't question the way things are or the way they should be!

[JohnnyHumongous]

Don't apologize and don't justify yourself evolvedForm, just say what you want to say and own it. Those guys sure don't feel obligated to justify their ludicrous accusations of redneck-hood.

[FlFishOn]

"Thus I'm taken aback by the tone of people in the US and on these boards who talk about these issues like they are so clearly black and white, and the liberal standard position is so clearly correct. "

This is the product of US college education. They know no better.

[Peter666]

Don't be too hard on Diebitter, he is English and everyone knows that English men have been crushed into sad emotional sacks of liberal blubber by their butt ugly women.

In fact, I find a definite correlation between the general attractiveness of women and the political correctness of a society. Men in countries with lots of good looking women to choose from tend to act macho (Spaniards, Italians, Eastern Europeans, South Americans). The opposite is the case when finding someone good enough to sleep with becomes a difficult chore (England, Netherlands, parts of America).

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You got turned down again, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

So between you, MidGe and ElaineMonster we get 3 short quippy posts that just demean the points others have brought here and don't add any real substance. Thanks for your contribution.

Why do you people trip around these forums 'enforcing' the liberal norms by posting in this way? I didn't grow up in a family where the liberal way of thinking was taken as status quo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling people 'liberals' is second only to calling people 'nazis' when they don't engage or they disagree with you. You instantly lose credibility for being such a huge asshat for making such sweeping assumptions/setting up such a lame strawman deal.

You may not have realised this, so hope this helps.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't be too hard on Diebitter, he is English and everyone knows that English men have been crushed into sad emotional sacks of liberal blubber by their butt ugly women.

In fact, I find a definite correlation between the general attractiveness of women and the political correctness of a society. Men in countries with lots of good looking women to choose from tend to act macho (Spaniards, Italians, Eastern Europeans, South Americans). The opposite is the case when finding someone good enough to sleep with becomes a difficult chore (England, Netherlands, parts of America).

[/ QUOTE ]

And you can shut up too (though you are funny at least, and make an interesting point).


The original bs isn't worth arguong over really cos it really isn't true for real people - it may be true for dunderheads who belive what they read rather than he reality around them.

AceOfSpades made some great discussion points though.

[evolvedForm]

Wait, I guess I forgot to mention that in my post but the media's portrayal or men and women was supposed to be a key point.

So if you agree with me on that point, then you are essentially in agreement with me on my main point. (Those explanations and "causes" were admittedly speculations. But, I suspect there is truth to them).

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, I guess I forgot to mention that in my post but the media's portrayal or men and women was supposed to be a key point.

So if you agree with me on that point, then you are essentially in agreement with me on my main point. (Those explanations and "causes" were admittedly speculations. But, I suspect there is truth to them).

[/ QUOTE ]

That changes it enitrely. As absolute truth, it's mostly nonsense, as a proposition of how the media portray things and how some people of specific political persuasions see things (and possibly how it may alter truth and be self-prophesying through time), seems a good set of points.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wait, I guess I forgot to mention that in my post but the media's portrayal or men and women was supposed to be a key point.

So if you agree with me on that point, then you are essentially in agreement with me on my main point. (Those explanations and "causes" were admittedly speculations. But, I suspect there is truth to them).

[/ QUOTE ]

That changes it enitrely. As absolute truth, it's mostly nonsense, as a proposition of how the media portray things and how some people of specific political persuasions see things (and possibly how it may alter truth and be self-prophesying through time), seems a good set of points.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are arguing that how a particular group is portrayed in the media has zero relevance to how things are in the real world, I have to disagree with you. It is no more acceptable to consistently portray men as moronic, dimwitted, sex-obsessed oafs, than it would be to portray women as (insert sexist stereotype here), or a certain ethnic group as (insert racist stereotype here).

Racist/sexist portrayals of particular groups are usually met with outrage - except in the case of men, who evidently are the last fair game left.

Look at how women were portrayed in the media back in the 1950s (the subservient housewife, totally dependent on a man). This portrayal was reflected in the general societal attitude toward's "a woman's place" - at least until women began to speak out against it.

I am no member of the PC police, nor do I support the (mostly lame) "men's movements" that have been floating around in recent years. But when a particular group decides it's acceptable to be stereotyped and mocked in the media, then that is the attitude that usually ends up taking hold in society at large.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wait, I guess I forgot to mention that in my post but the media's portrayal or men and women was supposed to be a key point.

So if you agree with me on that point, then you are essentially in agreement with me on my main point. (Those explanations and "causes" were admittedly speculations. But, I suspect there is truth to them).

[/ QUOTE ]

That changes it enitrely. As absolute truth, it's mostly nonsense, as a proposition of how the media portray things and how some people of specific political persuasions see things (and possibly how it may alter truth and be self-prophesying through time), seems a good set of points.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are arguing that how a particular group is portrayed in the media has zero relevance to how things are in the real world, I have to disagree with you. It is no more acceptable to consistently portray men as moronic, dimwitted, sex-obsessed oafs, than it would be to portray women as (insert sexist stereotype here), or a certain ethnic group as (insert racist stereotype here).

Racist/sexist portrayals of particular groups are usually met with outrage - except in the case of men, who evidently are the last fair game left.

Look at how women were portrayed in the media back in the 1950s (the subservient housewife, totally dependent on a man). This portrayal was reflected in the general societal attitude toward's "a woman's place" - at least until women began to speak out against it.

I am no member of the PC police, nor do I support the (mostly lame) "men's movements" that have been floating around in recent years. But when a particular group decides it's acceptable to be stereotyped and mocked in the media, then that is the attitude that usually ends up taking hold in society at large.

[/ QUOTE ]

These points you make...are you taking umbrage at what I said? Cos if you are, you didn't read it properly.

[CallMeIshmael]

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Men in countries with lots of good looking women to choose from tend to act macho (Spaniards, Italians, Eastern Europeans, South Americans).

[/ QUOTE ]


Ummmm... am I the only one surprised at the inclusion of eastern european in this list?


(interestingly, gien something like that is included, Id wager better than even that p666 is of eastern european descent)

[Peter666]

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Men in countries with lots of good looking women to choose from tend to act macho (Spaniards, Italians, Eastern Europeans, South Americans).

[/ QUOTE ]




Ummmm... am I the only one surprised at the inclusion of eastern european in this list?


(interestingly, gien something like that is included, Id wager better than even that p666 is of eastern european descent)

[/ QUOTE ]

Eastern European men also have high IQ's and are very well endowed.

Regardless, my travels to Russia and other Eastern Bloc countries have affirmed that 1) men tend to be very macho and even boorish (very easy to start a fight) 2) the women are on average are much better looking.

[revots33]

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Ummmm... am I the only one surprised at the inclusion of eastern european in this list?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever watch women's tennis?

[madnak]

Women graduate more often than men, and get better grades on average. I have no idea why that is, but it's an interesting trend.

FlFish, you've said that due to their lower IQ scores, blacks must be intellectually inferior to whites. Doesn't it stand to reason, then, that based on their lower grades men must be intellectually inferior to women? Your views about gender seem to contradict your views about race.

I believe there are some very difficult problems facing men today, and I think men suffer from the lack of perceived credibility and legitimacy given to those problems. As a man that's very frustrating to me, but I'm not sure where it comes from. It seems too easy to say it's an effect of feminism. There must be more to it than that. It's somewhat taboo for men to admit weakness on an individual level - maybe that norm has expressed itself in a broader cultural sense as well.

[FlFishOn]

Men are much better represented in the right tail of the normal IQ curve and it's reflected in their overwhelming dominance in Nobel science awards VS women. It's like 100-1 ratio.

Secondly, don't be such a dick.

[madnak]

So you think men are more stupid on average, but have a greater chance at being brilliant geniuses?

[FlFishOn]

See point #2

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ummmm... am I the only one surprised at the inclusion of eastern european in this list?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever watch women's tennis?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I mean, there are certainly highly attractive women from all nationalites.


Im, of course, unable to have any real opinion on "most attractive ethnicities," since thats really difficult (almost impossible) to determine, but in pop culture (i know of at least the simpsons, and perhaps other) eastern european women are referred to as some of the LEAST attractive women.

[CallMeIshmael]

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Secondly, don't be such a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've gotten into more heated debates with Madnak than probably any other poster on these boards.

In spite of this, I still respect his intellignce, and have never viewed him as a "dick" despite these disagreements.

You, on the other hand, are a bigot and an idiot.

[FlFishOn]

"...but in pop culture (i know of at least the simpsons, and perhaps other)...are referred to as some of the LEAST attractive women. "

You're on point with respect to Marge but in eight years that Lisa is gonna be a looker.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
FlFish, you've said that due to their lower IQ scores, blacks must be intellectually inferior to whites.

[/ QUOTE ]


FWIW, I was recently discussing this with a friend of mine who is a grad student in psychology.

Essentially, there isnt conclusive evidence either way YET.


Yes, certain races out perfom others on IQ tests. However, we are still unable to determine if those are the result of culture or genetics.

[FlFishOn]

"Essentially, there isnt conclusive evidence either way YET."

There never will be either. It's too hot to handle.

[evolvedForm]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't apologize and don't justify yourself



[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't do either.

[ QUOTE ]
just say what you want to say and own it. Those guys sure don't feel obligated to justify their ludicrous accusations of redneck-hood.



[/ QUOTE ]

I do own what I said. Which is basically that I made a lot of generalizations in the hopes of starting a discussion. It's often hard to do that without getting pigeon-holed, but I'm willing to take that risk if the debate is enlightening.

[Peter666]

"Im, of course, unable to have any real opinion on "most attractive ethnicities," since thats really difficult (almost impossible) to determine"

Nah. Russians/Ukrainians #1 Brazilians #2

I'm surprised the beauty of the Eastern Europeans is still not known by many. Good, more for me.

http://www.nomarriage.com/x/brazilianwomen.html

[evolvedForm]

Hey, they make up the majority of internet pornstars. Guess that's something.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
"Im, of course, unable to have any real opinion on "most attractive ethnicities," since thats really difficult (almost impossible) to determine"

Nah. Russians/Ukrainians #1 Brazilians #2

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, I mean, its not like attractiveness is subjective, or the product of evolution (and thus different from race to race) or anything.

[FlFishOn]

Could The Donald be wrong on matters of style, taste and beauty?

Eh, could be. But ya gotta love that hair.

[Peter666]

Oh great, now you want to argue the philosophical foundation of the study of Aesthetics. I'll pass on this one. Take all the fat chicks you want.

[CallMeIshmael]

I just thought of something.

"I'm surprised the beauty of the Eastern Europeans is still not known by many. Good, more for me."

When you say "more for me" do you mean "more for me to look at"?

Because you would never have sex with any of these women right? Or is multiple sex partners OK, as long as you dont use contraception?

[Peter666]

[ QUOTE ]
I just thought of something.

"I'm surprised the beauty of the Eastern Europeans is still not known by many. Good, more for me."

When you say "more for me" do you mean "more for me to look at"?

Because you would never have sex with any of these women right? Or is multiple sex partners OK, as long as you dont use contraception?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I mean more for me to SIIHP because I'm a moral hypocrite you moran.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just thought of something.

"I'm surprised the beauty of the Eastern Europeans is still not known by many. Good, more for me."

When you say "more for me" do you mean "more for me to look at"?

Because you would never have sex with any of these women right? Or is multiple sex partners OK, as long as you dont use contraception?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I mean more for me to SIIHP because I'm a moral hypocrite you moran.

[/ QUOTE ]


Alright, wacki, can you sticky this.

He HAS to be a troll right?

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I find a definite correlation between the general attractiveness of women and the political correctness of a society. Men in countries with lots of good looking women to choose from tend to act macho (Spaniards, Italians, Eastern Europeans, South Americans). The opposite is the case when finding someone good enough to sleep with becomes a difficult chore (England, Netherlands, parts of America).

[/ QUOTE ]For a man who with so grand SIIHP pretensions, your perspective appears to be extremely limited. What makes you think that ebony beauties of Africe are any less sexy? Or that Swedish Norwegian and Danish gals can't be good looking?

And those are just random examples.

[Alex-db]

Imagine you were to be selected a girl for this evening. From each nationality, 20 girls the given age group were selected. You pick a nationality, and either get the best girl from the random 20, the median girl, or a girl from the set at random. So which countries are best to choose in each situation?

I'm English and certainly wouldn't choose UK or USA. I think it is important to choose a country with low obesity, as that seriously affects the average attractiveness of the group (some girls born with the potential to be attractive end up fat). After that it must just be aesthetic preferences.

Generally, I think Peter666's list can't be far off the best choice, although I'm not sure the negativity about scandiland countries was justified.