Four card flop, opps I screwed up.

[Percula]

It is interesting how things seem to happen with the same theme Similar Post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4310724&an=0&page=1#Post 4310724)

Anyway I was playing some 5-150 spread limit last night at Casino Arizona with a fellow 2+2'er in from up north. I was running (and playing) bad and was short stacked. Folds around to me in MP with our fellow 2+2'er OTB. I raise to 25 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he calls and we go HU to the flop.

The dealer burns and deals three down. Flop comes from right to left (facing the dealer which is also the diraction he spread the flop) A/images/graemlins/club.gifrag/images/graemlins/spade.gifrag/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I grab a stack of chips and am reaching to bet. Frankly I am not sure if I touched the felt or just close to it, when the dealer says "Wait a minute! We have cards stuck together."

And is where it gets a little fuzzy. I am questioning what the hell is going on. Our fellow 2+2'er is also wondering what is going on. Seat 1 is a prick and interupting the talk. Dealer ends up putting the cards back together and counting three out and saying the "extra" card is the burn, and yep you guessed it, it was the ace leaving an all spade flop.

We played out the hand, I lost. I really really feel stupid. I should have put my foot down and called the floor. If I wasn't in the middle of betting when the dealer stopped the action, I would have let it slide and likely backed off, maybe not, well likely not. LOL.

So just a reminder, ALWAYS call the floor when something like this happens.

I would hope that the floor would rule that significant action had taken place based on the fact that I was in the motion of betting on the flop that it would have to stand, but I really do not know for sure.

[ZenMusician]

opps = opportunities?
oops.

-ZEN

[Spook]

one person in the act of betting does not constitute significant action.

[Percula]

[ QUOTE ]
one person in the act of betting does not constitute significant action.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the act of betting is not significant action what the hell is then?

[Benholio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
one person in the act of betting does not constitute significant action.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the act of betting is not significant action what the hell is then?

[/ QUOTE ]

One guy bets, another guy raises, third guy folds, first guy goes all-in.

[AKQJ10]

The floor would probably have produced exactly the outcome that the dealer did, except that the game would have been held up for long enough to find a floor.

[Improv]

I was the fellow 2+2er in the hand, and I definitely felt a little dirty about the results. Percula was extremely professional about what happened, but it was a weird hand -- not only did the ace get replaced by a spade, but it was the queen of spades, giving him top pair great kicker again.

Had we played with the original flop (which I think we would have had to if action had started, but I'm not sure), the post flop result would have been the same with me putting Percula all-in, and I might have caught my flush or jack as the turn and river would have been different, but that's a big "might."

I very nearly requested a floorman myself, but as far as I could tell, the dealer did produce the "correct" flop, and although Percula had reached for chips, action had not began. Before knowing what the replacement card was, I was satisfied with the resolution, and Percula said he was satisfied too.

Again, I am sorry about what went down, Percula. Just know that if you wanted a floor decision (which I imagine would have been the same), I wouldn't have argued.

--Improv

P.S. As stated before, the $5-$150 game at the Casino Arizona might be the softest game I have ever played in. Everyone on this board should play in it at least once in their life. You won't regret it. And leave your iPod at home -- the crazy comments made by the players and "analysis" of each hand is far more entertaining than any music you might have.

[Chipr777]

[ QUOTE ]
If the act of betting is not significant action what the hell is then?

[/ QUOTE ] Significant action is defined as two or more people acting on their hand.

[DespotInExile]

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing some 5-150 spread limit

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never heard of this type of structure. How does it work? Why do they have it?

[Spook]

It is much like No Limit, except state law prohibits bets above 150 dollars.

Minnisota law prohibits bets over 60 dollars so the highest game at Canterbury is gonna be 30-60.

[niss]

What is the typical buy in?

[belloc]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone on this board should play in it at least once in their life. You won't regret it. And leave your iPod at home -- the crazy comments made by the players and "analysis" of each hand is far more entertaining than any music you might have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to recommend the 8/16 there (at Casino Arizona) for the same reasons. Everybody's an expert, but nobody can play worth a damn. I just played there for the second time yesterday, and had another nice session. It's now my new second favorite game west of the Rockies (first being the Commerce 9/18). I'll certainly play it again during my next visit to Phoenix.

[Percula]

Hey Improv, good to hear from you, was a little surprised not to see you today... You still in town? It was great after the monthly MTT, 5 tables of the 5-150. AA cracked twice, KK cracked once, but still doubled up. LOL

Anyway... I talked to the floor today and asked what would have been done. She was not a happy camper too say the least! They have a standing rule that when something like this happens the floor is to be called at once by the dealer. Which really isn't too much of a problem as most days there are 2-3 floor for the high stakes tables and one can be found in less than a minute.

She said the standard operation there in this type of situation is to 1) return any bets made (if any). 2) Since the flop was spread it is not possible to know for sure the correct order of the cards. The flop and remaining stub would be reshuffled and the flop redealt.

The 5-150 game... blinds 3/5, betting structure is spread limit, e.g 5 to 150, it is a red chip and multiples of 5 are strongly recommended. It has a 3 raise cap unless HU. Max buy-in is $350, min is $100. However these can be tossed out the door if the other players all aggree to let someone buy large or small. It is not unusual for several people to be sitting in the a long session with >$1500.

[_TKO_]

In the rooms I play, the dealer will call the floor in this situation.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Despite the fact that you're probably right, the ONLY solution for the dealer is to IMMEDIATELY STOP and call the floor. Fixing the problem without the floor is a MAJOR no-no, I sense a nut-kicking in the works for a certain dealer.

Significant action is when two or more players act on a hand, so it's unlikely the floor would have ruled that the OP's bet was significant action.

The floor WOULD try to determine what the CORRECT burn and flop cards should have been, fix the error, and maintain the integrity of the deck if at all possible. In the event it was impossible to determine what the correct flop should have been, a re-shuffle and new flop would be the best solution.

al