Poker Room Tip Calculator [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Sparks

07-19-2005, 04:09 PM

Poker Room Tip Calculator:

All dollars are pre-tax. All employees assumed to work full time, with benefits.

D = annual salary you think a dealer should make
S = annual salary you think a food server should make
C = annual salary you think a cocktail server should make
V = annual salary you think a valet should make
P = annual salary you think a porter should make.
F = annual salary you think a floorman should make

Dealers: (D – 14,000)/46,800 per won hand.
Notes: Round up to nearest dollar. Tip every hand you win regardless of size, including when you split the pot with someone else. Don’t tip when you “chop the blinds.” Add $1 for exceptional service, your favorite dealer, etc.

Food Servers: (S – 14,000)/8,840 per delivery.
Notes: Round up to nearest dollar. Fruit plates, desserts and other items less than $7 in value, subtract $1. Special orders, very large dinners, add $1.

Cocktail Servers: (C – 14,000)/21,216 per drink.
Notes: Round up to nearest dollar. Tip more for interpersonal reasons, as required.

Valets: (V – 12000)/12,376 upon return of your car
Notes: Round up to nearest dollar. Add $2 for “keep it close” request. Tip up to $10 for exotic cars, both upon arrival and departure.

Porters: (P- 12000)/10,608 per service.
Notes: Round up to nearest dollar. Typical services include bringing coffee, bottled water, clearing table or general cleanup upon your request.

Floormen: 2% of your winnings
Notes: Round up to nearest $5. $400 winning night minimum, $40 maximum toke for middle limit and below games. Not applicable to higher limit games.

Sparks

TheMetetron

07-19-2005, 04:21 PM

Floor isn't getting 2% of my winnings... and you have me way undertipping the dealer based on what I think they should make.

stinkypete

07-19-2005, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Floor isn't getting 2% of my winnings... and you have me way undertipping the dealer based on what I think they should make.

[/ QUOTE ]

tipping a dollar on every pot is way undertipping?

Derek in NYC

07-19-2005, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you have me way undertipping the dealer based on what I think they should make.

[/ QUOTE ]

tipping a dollar on every pot is way undertipping?

[/ QUOTE ]

25 hands/hour X 8 hours X 260 work days = $52,000

30 hands/hour X 8 hours X 260 work days = $62,400

Average median household income, Nevada, 2001-2003: $46,118

CONCLUSIONS: (1) Dealers deserve $1/pot; (2) dealers have the ability, by dealing faster and keeping the action moving, to substantially increase their wages.

nightlyraver

07-20-2005, 01:36 AM

Based on this I shouldn't tip at all. Dealers get paid, they do not make all their money on tips. No one who does a completely mindless job should be making 52 grand ON TOP of their salary. Dealers give almost nothing back to society - really anyone can be trained in like 3 hours to do that job. And it's also one of the easiest f&cking jobs on earth. I now feel better about being miserly with my tipping when it comes to dealers...

The_Tracker

07-20-2005, 04:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Based on this I shouldn't tip at all. Dealers get paid, they do not make all their money on tips. No one who does a completely mindless job should be making 52 grand ON TOP of their salary. Dealers give almost nothing back to society - really anyone can be trained in like 3 hours to do that job. And it's also one of the easiest f&cking jobs on earth. I now feel better about being miserly with my tipping when it comes to dealers...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good dont tip you piece of trash. NOBODY gives a [censored] if you are going to tip or not.

While you are at it, stiff the cocktail waitress, stiff the valet (like you would valet), stiff the servers at the buffet (because they didn't bring you any food, just drinks) because everyone in life owes you everything for free.

Dumbasses like you are simply bitter that you make 8 bucks an hour at the local Wal-mart. Guess what, its not a dealers fault you have no education or skills.

Christ. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Freerollin`

07-20-2005, 08:03 AM

Ya know...

I'm glad that I'm not the only person who gets angry at people who think that they're too good to tip a dealer, the dealer doesn't deserve a tip, etc.

What's the matter with you people? Dealers have been getting tipped in casinos for quite a while now. What makes you so special that you can change this? Stick to the internet, cheapskate.

Somebody said this a couple days ago, and I forget who it was, so forgive me for failing to properly cite it:

RUNAWAY BUSES SEEK OUT PEOPLE LIKE YOU

-Tripp

Chipr777

07-20-2005, 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
really anyone can be trained in like 3 hours to do that job. And it's also one of the easiest f&cking jobs on earth. I now feel better about being miserly with my tipping when it comes to dealers...

[/ QUOTE ]
Clueless. I'll give you 3 months, 8 hours a day, and you couldn't pass an audition.

meep_42

07-20-2005, 12:57 PM

I thought dealers didn't deal for their whole 8 hour shift. Maybe i'm wrong?

-d

toddw217

07-20-2005, 01:02 PM

It is an interesting exercise taking place here.

If the $52k number is even close to right - that's a pretty generous pay rate! The thing is, people of all professions tend to think that no-one can really appreciate what they have to put up with and that they are underappreciated and underpaid.

If that's what the job pays, good for you dealers. But I know many people with college degrees that work jobs requiring advanced knowledge and skills that don't sniff $50k.

Life is not always fair, but should a dealer make more than say a call center rep (we have a lot of those here in Tampa)? I'd say by all rights no - I think those jobs are $25k-$35k.

But like I said before - good for you dealers if you're making $50k. I'll tip my $1 a pot and call it good.

nightlyraver

07-20-2005, 01:33 PM

Ha ha ha ha ha - I really enjoyed reading these responses.

First, I NEVER stiff the cocktail waitreses or any food server for that matter and I tip very liberally anyone who drives my car or carries my bags.

What does TIP even mean? Well, I'll tell you. It actually stands for "To Ensure Promptness." Servers and such make total $hit hourly (like $4/hr.) and the tip ensures that they promptly serve you.

Dealers on the other hand will not be any more prompt no matter what you tip. Moreover, a dealer who is "good" simply follows the rules of game/cardroom. I will tip exceptional dealers, but from my experience most dealers are bitter and make several errors. Therefore, I won't make a blanket policy to tip $2 or something like that from every single pot I win.

In response to your silly statements at the end of your reply regarding jobs/education, I don't feel that I need to defend myself in this spot. However, you should know that I'm a law student, I do almost all of the legal work for a local technology firm, and I'm on a limited budget as both myself and my wife are full time students.

Lastly, I've had MANY jobs in my day and none of them caused me to receive a tip. Similar to dealing poker, in college I spent 10 hours a day removing literally thousands of tape cartridges from computer servers. Extremely repetative and boring - but I hapily collected my $10/hr. paycheck. Note how this job actually benefitted society as these cartridges held the financial records of thousands of american companies.

Tapin

07-20-2005, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What does TIP even mean? Well, I'll tell you. It actually stands for "To Ensure Promptness."
...
In response to your silly statements at the end of your reply regarding jobs/education, I don't feel that I need to defend myself in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best laugh I've had all day. Thanks.

Aces McGee

07-20-2005, 02:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What does TIP even mean? Well, I'll tell you. It actually stands for "To Ensure Promptness."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't it be TEP, then?

-McGee

toddw217

07-20-2005, 03:34 PM

Job posting just received by e-mail:

Company: University of South Florida
Senior Statistician (HR Data Analyst) -
Position Number: 7460
Bi-Weekly Salary Range: $1,149.43 - $1,532.57

Qualifications: Master's degree in Statistical Analysis, Research
Methods, Information System

That translates to $29,885-$39,846 annually. If the $50k is close to accurate - no more bit@%ing about tips.

scott2130

07-20-2005, 03:57 PM

I asked a dealer at my local B&M and they don't deal all eight hours. They are on 1/2 and hour and then off 1/2, (side work) So cut your tips in half.

Then I think your 260 days worked is high, try 240 (just a guess. Just round to $25,000. Now the casino does track all of this so they do pay tax but I will work with just gross. I would say they get paid salary of $25k to maybe $35k. Add in some really good nights and bad beat tips and they could make over $50k a year.

I got this from a dealer.

keats

07-20-2005, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It is an interesting exercise taking place here.

If the $52k number is even close to right - that's a pretty generous pay rate! The thing is, people of all professions tend to think that no-one can really appreciate what they have to put up with and that they are underappreciated and underpaid.

If that's what the job pays, good for you dealers. But I know many people with college degrees that work jobs requiring advanced knowledge and skills that don't sniff $50k.

Life is not always fair, but should a dealer make more than say a call center rep (we have a lot of those here in Tampa)? I'd say by all rights no - I think those jobs are $25k-$35k.

But like I said before - good for you dealers if you're making $50k. I'll tip my $1 a pot and call it good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a call center Rep I make about 20,000/yr. I am only 20 though and only started about 6 months ago.

bravos1

07-20-2005, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Job posting just received by e-mail:

Company: University of South Florida
Senior Statistician (HR Data Analyst) -
Position Number: 7460
Bi-Weekly Salary Range: $1,149.43 - $1,532.57

Qualifications: Master's degree in Statistical Analysis, Research
Methods, Information System

That translates to $29,885-$39,846 annually. If the $50k is close to accurate - no more bit@%ing about tips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how this relates?? Just because some idiot w/ a masters degree WILL be stupid enough to take this job, does not mean that dealers should be making $12K a year. You also have to put into perspective that the likely person to take this job will be working on their doctorate and just wants the money for daily expenses until they finish school and get a real job.

PhatCasino

07-20-2005, 06:09 PM

nightlyraver

07-20-2005, 07:05 PM

typo smarta$$

nightlyraver

07-20-2005, 08:47 PM

Thanks, great reasons why tipping dealers is silly. Over $50K/year???!!! That's just nutz for several reasons. First, it' a job that a grade school dropout could do without any problem (assuming the person isn't retarded). Thus, society should encourage people who are unskilled and uneducated to persue such a position. On the flip side, we are a country that many will argue is falling behind in the technology race and certainly in the education race. Therefore, we should encourage people who are educated and capable to persue professional careers. If someone decides not to work at a software company for example since a programmer starts at like $35K in many cases and subsequently persues a position as a dealer since he can start making $50K now and drop out of college, we are worse off. Moreover, if we start taking all those dealer tips and use the funds in favor of free education we are also better off. Also, funds that are paid to the working middle class with professional careers generally give the most back to society since they carry on traditional lives that fuel the consumer market and fund expansion of big business and infrastructure. For example, the statistition will probably be more "average" in society and will push towards "average" norms, economically speaking. By this I mean that the statistician will be more inclined to pay someone to build a house, marry a spouse who values progress, encourage his children to move towards the information age and all the while purchase the most common of goods at the most common of stores, which will contribute money to society in the most efficient way. Now, I don't mean that as a rule a poker dealer would not marry an accountant, build a house, birth 2 children, send them to a State University, invest in several tech start-ups and shop at Walmart. However, our society benefits more from efficiency and the statistition will more efficiently put his money into taxable goods and services and invest in the future.

That said, I'm willing to let the guy down the road who has a 90 IQ and can't do any better, or the retired guy who lives downstairs and went to school 40 years ago using books that are useless today, persue a nice $20K job as a dealer. After all, the statistician's benefits will flow to the heirs of these people and help them climb the social ladder if they are so inclined.

Wow, that turned into a novel. Anyway, I made my point. Like I said earlier - unless I'm in a great mood after winning a big pot or I receive exceptional service, I'm not tipping the dealer. ESPECIALLY since the most common rationals are SOOOO weak ("dude, it's a dealer - you HAVE to tip the dealer" - laughable).

KornGeek

07-20-2005, 09:18 PM

Seriously, if you have such contempt for the dealers and don't want to tip, why not stick to online poker?

Also, I find it ironic that you discuss educational levels in a post filled with misspellings.

nightlyraver

07-20-2005, 10:43 PM

A fine example of a rediculous response. How about this? I'll just go to vegas or AC when I want to and just tip when I want to. Is that alright with you?

Oh, and by the way - you should tip me, that way I'll be more inclined to type more carefully and use a spellchecker. Perhapps if peopel didn't tip soo mutch, I woold haf beeen taut how to spel bettor.

nightlyraver

07-20-2005, 10:49 PM

Oh and by the way, my wife just informed me that her best friend's sister used to be a school teacher. She quit and got a job as a dealer in vegas given all the tipping. My case and point - true story too! So I ask you this: Do we really want much needed school teachers abandoning their pupils in favor of a job as a cardroom dealer?

I think not - why don't you just take all those chips that you ordinarily would have given to the dealers and hand them right over to your kid's kindergarden teacher? Why is a poker dealer more deserving of the money?

bravos1

07-20-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is a poker dealer more deserving of the money?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody said they were! Why don't we just get pro athletes to give half of their checks to schools? Do they deserve to make millions of $$$ per year? Doubtful, but that is just the way it is!

nightlyraver

07-20-2005, 11:20 PM

Well, the next time you go to a pro basketball game and tip out the players, let me know...

The_Tracker

07-20-2005, 11:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and by the way, my wife just informed me that her best friend's sister used to be a school teacher. She quit and got a job as a dealer in vegas given all the tipping. My case and point - true story too! So I ask you this: Do we really want much needed school teachers abandoning their pupils in favor of a job as a cardroom dealer?

I think not - why don't you just take all those chips that you ordinarily would have given to the dealers and hand them right over to your kid's kindergarden teacher? Why is a poker dealer more deserving of the money?

[/ QUOTE ]

raver, you clearly need to stay off the drugs. Your points are hardly worth arguing with, but I just can't help myself.

You seem unable to comprehend that dealing, much like MANY of the jobs in Vegas are in the SERVICE industry.

This means that someone is doing you a service. Dealing cards so your degenerate ass can gamble, serving you food, checking your bags into your room, parking your car, cutting your hair, massaging your hairy ass, etc. etc. etc.

Our society has deemed these jobs to be paid by wages in the form of tips or tokes from the people that are being serviced.

Dealing is no diffrent. They are offering you the service of dealing cards so you may gamble your money with others. You have other options. You can play poker online, or play poker with your donk friends (doubt you have many) at home. Noone is forcing you to come to a casino and play poker and expecting you to tip the dealers.

It has been this way in Vegas for 100 years, and you [censored] 20 something internet players are coming along now asking, why is this so. It is so, because it is so.
You are stupid, and cheap, and your arguments are not changing anything.

bravos1

07-20-2005, 11:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the next time you go to a pro basketball game and tip out the players, let me know...

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a reach.. anyways.. you do "tip" them everytime you buy a pair of sneakers. or a jersey, etc.

47outs

07-21-2005, 12:10 AM

Your a clueless idiot.

It's not easy dealing poker. I have the option to deal poker every day if I want (im a dual-pit supervisor), and I'd rather claw my eyes out than deal poker.

Having said that, when I did/do deal poker I do it very well and professional. But it is by far the least favorite game in a casino to deal.

And.. about your post on prompt service. I can deal faster than 95% of poker dealers, but if I'm getting stiffed then my efforts drop to below avg dealing. I wouldn't bust my balls for people who don't appreciate it.

outs

SUND

07-21-2005, 03:30 AM

I thank you all for this post, since I come from Sweden where tip is NOT as important as in the US. It is good to get some guidelines.

In Sweden you more or less only give about a 10% tip at a dinner restaurant when going out in the evening. But you don't tip during lunch. But I guess the big difference is that ppl in the service industry have higher wages in Sweden.

Having said that, I'm going to Vegas in about 2 weeks for my first time and I guess I will try the 2/4 limit tables since that is what I play on-line and feel comfortable at.
So... is $1 for every pot i win the right amount? Or should I wait untill the game is over and tip a few % of my winnings?

That said... plz ppl, don't call each other idiots..
we all have the right to dissagree. And try to keep in mind:

http://www.sund.biz/pictures/mixed/arguing.jpg

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

//SUND

threeonefour

07-21-2005, 03:42 AM

This thread is worthless. fallacy after fallacy after fallacy....

Mason Hellmuth

07-21-2005, 04:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What does TIP even mean? Well, I'll tell you. It actually stands for "To Ensure Promptness." Servers and such make total $hit hourly (like $4/hr.) and the tip ensures that they promptly serve you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't be stupid. (http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.htm)

nightlyraver

07-21-2005, 04:29 AM

Your answer is complete nonsense.

Waiters make $4/hr. or less in many cases. Without tips they starve. Dealers receive a the same money as an average nevada persone would - similar to say a statistician w/ a masters degree. Thus, dealers ARE different from other members of the service industry.

Your statement of "it is so, because it is so" carries no weight. Further, greed has nothing to do with this. The money will be spent in Vegas regardless. However, I would much prefer spending it on a nice dinner to giving it away to the dealers. In fact, such a practice is far better for the local economy in the long haul. I could care less whether or not I have your permission to come to Vegas. Society's "decision" that dealers should be tipped is completely rediculous from an economic standpoint and your "because I said so" reply does not change that.

CaptSensible

07-21-2005, 07:23 AM

For the following, the size of the pot requirement changes based on the limit but let's say i'm at a 6/12 table. I'll tell the dealer when he sits down that for every pot I win over 50 bucks I'll tip him an extra dollar consecutively. ie; 1st pot is a buck, 2nd is two bucks, etc etc etc...
At the least it makes him laugh and creates a fun atmosphere at the table.

IceKing

07-21-2005, 10:18 AM

Can we end this discussion about tipping for awhile - six months would be great! All the arguments have been said many times, try "search". It just comes on top way too often. Please?!!! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

ACPlayer

07-21-2005, 11:07 AM

You dont have to tip if you dont want to.

I have often weighed the pros and cons of tipping. As a player who plays regularly at Foxwoods and AC (many, many, many hours) I am aware of the cost of tipping to myself. Playing poker is my ONLY source of earned income for the past 4 years.

I usually tip every pot big or small when in AC. In FW I dont tip for small pots (2-3BB) and tip a dollar for bigger pots.

My reasons are:

1. If we did not tip then the quality of dealers will decline. This hurts me if they are sloppy etc.
2. If we did not tip then the house would increase the rake to pay the dealers (the dealers are going to have to get paid otherwise they go elsewhere). That would be more money out of my pocket. I win far fewer pots than most people, so I tip less than most people (overall). Increased rake would be more cash from my pocket.
3. In FW I tip less as the dealers pool their tokes and, more importantly, as a result they are not as good about moving the games along. So I get perhaps 3-5 hands less every half hour, which costs me money.
4. Lastly, not tipping is remembered by the dealers. This can mean not getting a break when you need it that has some value. I have very, very good relations with the dealers. Some have given me a break on the rake, they are more willing to take my word on marginal situations, the floor will drop the time charge just as I sit down rather than making me pay the time charge.

There are substantial monetary reasons to tip, be friendly and courteous to your dealers. It behoves you to reconsider.

dicelumpY2005

07-21-2005, 12:55 PM

This forum cracks me up on a daily basis. Where else can we go and run into the same topic 19 times in a week? However, it has reached an all-time low now: comparing dealing to teaching! Our youth will go uneducated because you tipped the dealer $1 for that pot you just dragged playing 2-4, drinking free booze, and having a good time while hopefully being entertained... Is that the point you were trying to make? That is certainly how I interpreted it...

nightlyraver

07-21-2005, 01:43 PM

Are you high or something?

It's not the fact that you, personally, throw the dealer a chip or two. It's the fact that over a period of time 10,000 players are doing the same thing and they are doing it several times per hour. Therefore, as a group, poker players will contribute millions of dollars to dealer tips. The effect, dealers earn 15k-20k more per year and this increase makes the job of poker dealer more profitable than entry level professional positions. This creates a silly situation in the job market. Moreover, the millions of dollars going towards tips will help the economy by orders of magnitude if they are spent differently. The dealer who now makes $20K more per year will likely spend the extra money on a nicer apartment and/or a nicer car. This is less efficient economically when compared to thousands of tourists taking that money and buying things like sunglasses, wrist watches and movie tickets. Simple fact - small purchases of common luxuries purchased in great quantities will more efficiently increase the aggregate social wealth. Bottom line.

So to answer your question, yes, our youth will suffer a slight drop in education when thousands upon thousands of poker players opt to tip rather than purchase extra goods and services.

bravos1

07-21-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
However, I would much prefer spending it on a nice dinner to giving it away to the dealers. In fact, such a practice is far better for the local economy in the long haul.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm.. so if I don't tip, I'll be able to have a nice dinner?? Which I'll have to tip even more /images/graemlins/grin.gif since you already said that tipping is OK if it is a nice restaurant. BTW, my meal decisions are not .. "Sorry honey, we can't go to <insert your fav. expensive restaurant here> because I tipped out $15 in my poker session even though I won $300" My past tipping amount has no impact on future dining choices. If this is so for you, then maybe you should stick to the penny games online where you don't have to tip and will only lose $10 or so. Didn't you already say that we should be giving this money to our teachers? Oh, but not you right.. you should use it so that you can finally add bacon and cheese to your burger! A damn good choice if you ask me! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif (throw in curly fries and a chocolate milkshake as well! You did stiff ALL the dealers today after all right?)

[ QUOTE ]
So to answer your question, yes, our youth will suffer a slight drop in education when thousands upon thousands of poker players opt to tip rather than purchase extra goods and services.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you tip on those services right? Again.. I love the hypocrisy... Oh wait.. I remember, your not a hypocrite! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

PokerBob

07-21-2005, 02:31 PM

hmmmmmm......... (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2908404&page=&view=&s b=5&o=)

nightlyraver

07-21-2005, 02:43 PM

Clearly you are missing the point.

First, dinner decisions may easily be made based on tipping habits. Example: Joe plans on going to a 3-star place or better for dinner 3 times during his week in Vegas and going cheap the other 3 times. Joe does well at the 3/6 game that he has been playing all week and earns $300. Joe spends the $300 on a much needed Widget that he has been eyeing in the giftshop. However, it took Joe 25 hours or so of play to earn the $300 at the 3/6 table. Easily, players similar to Joe will tip $125 in those 25 hours. Joe now is faced with a choice: tip the dealers; take his wife to a nice place to eat and spend $125 including tax and tip as opposed to buying dinner at a cheap cafe (his original plan). See?

This however is an unimportant decision in the long run. More importantly, Joe does not make this decision alone - there are literally thousands upon thousands of people that are similarly situated to Joe. If all the Joe's of the world stood up and decided to buy the extra dinner, owners probably will need an extra Widget Machine to handle the extra customers. In turn, Widget Machine Distribution Co. orders more Widget Machines and hires additional technitians. WidgeMan, Inc. who produces the Widget Machine now must hire additional engineers to produce more Widget Machines - the technitians and engineers also must be paid more since we need to attract the extra employees away from companies that hire similar people. In a short while, WidgMan, Inc. realizes that their competitor WhoSaMan, Inc. is making more WhoSaWhatsIts, which compete with the Widget Machine. WidgMan, Inc. now hires additional inventors to create the Widget Machine v.2.0. There are now more professional jobs, more people need to be educated and trained, and the middle class professionals that spend the most on dinners, tv, suits of clothes and wristwatches proportional to their income fule the domino effect.

My point was not to take the tips and give them to your kid's teacher (though that's not an entirely horrible decision - they are certainly providing the more valuable service!). My point was the society should encourage economic decisions that are most benefitial to the whole and not decisions that are completely arbitrary and down right silly.

dicelumpY2005

07-21-2005, 03:45 PM

This guy has figured out a new reason not to tip anymore! You sir, are an absolute moron. Stick to playing poker on the internet. Don't people realize they have choices in life that WON'T make them look like a cheap ****? Don't like to tip dealers? Play online... Don't like to tip waiters? It's called carryout... You have choices my friend...and one choice you SHOULDN'T have is to come onto 2+2 and pawn off your theories on how tipping a dealer $1 everytime you win a pot has led to the decline in society...

nightlyraver

07-21-2005, 03:53 PM

Wow - hats off to you. I concede. Alas, you are right.

Your simple answer of, "don't be a cheap ****" has completely proved me wrong and thus has changed my views. You are right, the "cheap ****" factor is EXACTLY the answer. Amazing! Why didn't I think of this before?

Sarcasm aside, you are quite obviously poorly educated. My "theories" are neither developed by myself nor are they theories - they are simple economic facts. If you have an argument to refute them, I would love to hear it. The "cheap ****" factor is not an argument.

dicelumpY2005

07-21-2005, 04:07 PM

There are many truths in the economic world that quite frankly suck, but we have alternatives if we don't like them... For instance, the cost of an automobile... You really think if the factory workers weren't all high paid members of the United Auto Workers that we would have to pay as much as we do for a car? I have a choice: buy a cheap foreign car, or take the damn bus. Either way we get a choice. It is your choice not to tip...fine, that's what internet poker is for. You aren't getting the service of a dealer, so therefore there is nobody to tip. You are just one of many who come on here and create new reasons as to why dealers shouldn't get tipped. Why preach this? Why try and reduce the income of a profession that has nothing to do with your life or your profession? I know, "play online" sounds redundant, but it works.

JoeC

07-21-2005, 05:18 PM

You missed the point by a wide margin.

The_Tracker

07-21-2005, 05:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Are you high or something?

It's not the fact that you, personally, throw the dealer a chip or two. It's the fact that over a period of time 10,000 players are doing the same thing and they are doing it several times per hour. Therefore, as a group, poker players will contribute millions of dollars to dealer tips. The effect, dealers earn 15k-20k more per year and this increase makes the job of poker dealer more profitable than entry level professional positions. This creates a silly situation in the job market. Moreover, the millions of dollars going towards tips will help the economy by orders of magnitude if they are spent differently. The dealer who now makes $20K more per year will likely spend the extra money on a nicer apartment and/or a nicer car. This is less efficient economically when compared to thousands of tourists taking that money and buying things like sunglasses, wrist watches and movie tickets. Simple fact - small purchases of common luxuries purchased in great quantities will more efficiently increase the aggregate social wealth. Bottom line.

So to answer your question, yes, our youth will suffer a slight drop in education when thousands upon thousands of poker players opt to tip rather than purchase extra goods and services.

[/ QUOTE ]

I regret responding to you again raver but you are so far out on a limb I can't help myself.

You argument holds no water. You claim that poker players tipping a buck a pot is detrimental to society as the money should be spent on other goods or services.

Ok, nevermind the argument of gambling itself being harmful to society. Apparently that is not a problem in your Wonka world. Its simply the act of tipping a dealer that is the real beast.

The point I have for you is, if someone is tipping, then they are winning. This usually means that they are going to leave with more money than they came with. You get that?? You have made money, and can now buy goods and services to stimulate the economy. Winning = tipping. Losing = no tipping. Most people don't tip the dealers when they lose a pot. Any of this making sense?

I get the feeling you are a teacher, and bitter about dealers making more than you.

Derek in NYC

07-21-2005, 05:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I get the feeling you are a teacher, and bitter about dealers making more than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

From salary.com

The median expected salary for a typical Teacher High School in Las Vegas, NV is $50,925. The median expected salary for a typical Dealer in Las Vegas, NV is $27,889.

I don't know whether the dealer numbers include tips or not. (Others like Photoc are better equipped to answer this.) But if not, tipping is clearly part of the necessary comp for dealer.

bravos1

07-21-2005, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly you are missing the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I?? let's see....

[ QUOTE ]
First, dinner decisions may easily be made based on tipping habits. Example: Joe plans on going to a 3-star place or better for dinner 3 times during his week in Vegas and going cheap the other 3 times. Joe does well at the 3/6 game that he has been playing all week and earns $300. Joe spends the $300 on a much needed Widget that he has been eyeing in the giftshop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is a much needed widget and it affects what he is eating.. Ol' Joe should not be playing poker as he does not have the money to lose! Joe needs to get his priorities straight! If he NEEDS this widget, then he should not be using his widget money to play poker. If it is a nice to have, then great Joe can buy it and no one will stop him. BUT, if he only buys it because he saved enough money by not tipping the dealers, then he is just a self centered pretentious prick! His wife also probably doesn't care because she is getting stuck by 3-4 other people. So when joe is stiffing the dealers, his wife is getting stiffed by those same dealers ( /images/graemlins/tongue.gif .... added that for those dealers lurking about!)

[ QUOTE ]
However, it took Joe 25 hours or so of play to earn the $300 at the 3/6 table. Easily, players similar to Joe will tip $125 in those 25 hours. Joe now is faced with a choice: tip the dealers; take his wife to a nice place to eat and spend $125 including tax and tip as opposed to buying dinner at a cheap cafe (his original plan). See?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again.. see my point above. If tipping away $125 makes him not able to eat at a nice place with his wife after he has won $300 (post tipping), just image what losing $250-$500 at the tables would do! Maybe Joe should take his wife to a nice dinner before buying that said widget? Again.. if this is the situation, Joe should not be playing. I can not tell you how many times it has been said that playing poker with your food money, mortgage, "needed WIDGET" money, etc. is just a disaster waiting to happen!

[ QUOTE ]
This however is an unimportant decision in the long run. More importantly, Joe does not make this decision alone - there are literally thousands upon thousands of people that are similarly situated to Joe. If all the Joe's of the world stood up and decided to buy the extra dinner, owners probably will need an extra Widget Machine to handle the extra customers. In turn, Widget Machine Distribution Co. orders more Widget Machines and hires additional technitians. WidgeMan, Inc. who produces the Widget Machine now must hire additional engineers to produce more Widget Machines - the technitians and engineers also must be paid more since we need to attract the extra employees away from companies that hire similar people. In a short while, WidgMan, Inc. realizes that their competitor WhoSaMan, Inc. is making more WhoSaWhatsIts, which compete with the Widget Machine. WidgMan, Inc. now hires additional inventors to create the Widget Machine v.2.0. There are now more professional jobs, more people need to be educated and trained, and the middle class professionals that spend the most on dinners, tv, suits of clothes and wristwatches proportional to their income fule the domino effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm I imagine that if you (and everyone else) tipped the dealer (like non-selfish nits do), then the dealers could purchase the super-uber widgets as well and WidgetCo would see no change at all. I mean, after all, they have needs just like the rest of us.. well most of them /images/graemlins/grin.gif If you take tips away from these professions, there will be much fewer Mega Widget Incs around because these people also help widget companies thrive.

[ QUOTE ]
My point was not to take the tips and give them to your kid's teacher (though that's not an entirely horrible decision - they are certainly providing the more valuable service!). My point was the society should encourage economic decisions that are most benefitial to the whole and not decisions that are completely arbitrary and down right silly.

[/ QUOTE ]

So not tipping service type workers is good for the whole and is silly? Interesting thoughts... That is just absurd and I for one am glad that I am not in a tipping profession just due to the fact that there are people like you. I'd like to know what profession you are in.

nightlyraver

07-21-2005, 07:17 PM

I can't believe that you still don't get this...

First, losing players tip all the time. Alas, most tourists will lose money at a 3/6 table as they play so poorly. However, almost no one will lose EVERY pot. The ones that they do win, even if they lose over the course of a week, they will tip out of. Also, you are wrong that players don't tip when they lose pots. It's not terribly common, but it happens often enough.

Secondly, gambling is quite certainly good for the economy in most cases. The rake goes to the house. The house now builds a new wing of their resort. A bunch of maids, janitors, clerks, administrators, etc. are now hired and TONS of small consumer goods are purchased. This is good.

This is not as good as if the losing players simply spend their money on consumer goods. However, gaming MUST occur and tipping is CHOSEN to occur. Based on current figures, the market will only bear $35K/year for dealers, statistitians, teachers, etc.

And by the way, I'm not a teacher. I'm actually a lawyer and I'm fairly certain that there isn't a dealer on earth that makes as much as lawyers do.

Mountainhawk

07-21-2005, 07:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

And by the way, I'm not a teacher. I'm actually a lawyer and I'm fairly certain that there isn't a dealer on earth that makes as much as lawyers do.

[/ QUOTE ]

They should. Dealers have added much more value to my life than lawyers have.

nightlyraver

07-21-2005, 07:45 PM

You read my post completely wrong. First, the Widget purchased by Joe with his $300 in winnings was from the freakin' gift shop. The "much needed" part was not to be taken literally. Second, Joe is not gambling with his food, rent or living money. Joe saved up some cash for a vacation and perhaps put aside $500 or so extra to play poker with. This is entertainment money. Third, Joe's wife probably does not give a fetid donkey's kidney how well Joe tips. Moreover, Mrs. Joe is not interested in getting stuck by anyone but Joe - mostly because Joe, like NightlyRaver, is blessed with a 9 inch penis.

The Widget Machines that I address later on are not the same as the Widget purchased at the gift shop by Joe. Widget Machines signify the purchases that merchants make in order to service the commercial market (like point of sale units, computer servers, touch screens, etc.). Neither Joe nor any dealer will purchase such products. With tipping, dealers will seldom opt to spend all tips on common luxeries and small consumer goods. Rather, 80% or more of the tips likely go towards a better lifestyle (nicer apartment, car, etc.). The $120 that Joe saves will be converted to common luxeries at a rate very close to 100%. The dealer tips likely will convert far far less to common luxeries and small consumer goods. Also, note that Joe will eat at 3 nice places in the least regardless of weather he loses all $500 or wins. In my hypo, Joe wins $425 and either converts $300 into common luxeries OR he converts $425 into common luxeries. $300 is about 70% of the whole $425, and the dealer probably converts only 15% of the tips into common luxeries. Therefore, tips are only 15-20% efficient and the whole of Joe's winnings are discounted appropriately. Given all $425, Joe would likely spend all of it with 100% efficiency.

bravos1

07-21-2005, 07:58 PM

I'll just stop now because you clearly do not understand!!!

You definately should not have stated that you are a lawyer for the following reasons:

1. Your logic just sucks and I feel for your clients, unless of course if you are a corporate lawyer... then all makes sense and you belong there.. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
2. I assume that you make decent money and that just makes you a cheap stiff!
3. 90% of all lawyers are pricks. I have 5 close friends who are lawyers, none of them are pricks (well 1 actually is, but that's another thread!), so you have a few dead outs meaning that you are more than a 90% chance of being a prick... I'd say those odds are most likely -EV for those of us here that have to deal with your crap, but is definately ++EV when we run into you at the tables!

BTW.. some dealers were talking about your 9 in penis AND your tips... both are non-existent!

In all seriousness, this thread started out as a joke... can't we all just get along?!?!?!? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

edit: OK it was the other tipping thread.. of the 50 this month that started out as a joke.. but you get my drift!

Mason Hellmuth

07-21-2005, 08:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
90% of all lawyers are pricks. I have 5 close friends who are lawyers, none of them are pricks (well 1 actually is, but that's another thread!), so you have a few deads outs meaning that you are more than a 90% chance of being a prick.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your play here, brilliant in my opinion.

The_Tracker

07-21-2005, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

First, losing players tip all the time.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
I'm actually a lawyer and I'm fairly certain that there isn't a dealer on earth that makes as much as lawyers do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it funny that you as a lawyer, are telling me, as a dealer, about the tipping habits of gamblers.

dicelumpY2005

07-21-2005, 09:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And by the way, I'm not a teacher. I'm actually a lawyer

[/ QUOTE ]

That would explain why you are trying to educate others to become scumbags...

chardog

07-22-2005, 01:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Dealers give almost nothing back to society.

However, you should know that I'm a law student, I do almost all of the legal work for a local technology firm,

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and laywers are the salt of the earth. You could have at least waited until graduating from law school before becoming a total jackass...

nightlyraver

07-22-2005, 10:17 AM

First, it doesn't take much to identify tipping patterns. One needs only to sit at a table for a couple sessions.

Anyway, notice how you only have a problem with this because you are a dealer. Read your responses ("hey, you NEED to tip dealers" "don't be cheap" "you're a scumbag" "it is so, because it is so"). I don't blame dearlers for wanting tips. But think about it, if you owned a Widget store for example you certainly would rather players buy Widgets than tip dealers.

sleeper0

07-23-2005, 03:02 AM

Don't have any interest in jumping into the thick of your argument, but I just wanted to point out that in california where many of you play the median home price is over $450,000 (2004) and the median household income is $53,000 (2003). While obviously there are certain jobs like teachers in this country that are chronically underpaid, that doesnt mean other people don't deserve what amounts to a living wage. Several people quoted salaries for technical or professional jobs in markets where the median home price is likely one half to one quarter of what it is here. In california a technical or professional job often commands a salary of in excess of $100,000.

adhoc

07-23-2005, 04:47 AM

This thread is full of useful information and I really like it. My favourite part is all of the stacked-up working class outrage. But, even though much of what has been said here is very wise and interesting, the most important reason not to tip a dealer has not been mentioned. Dealers are whiny beggars, and it is fun to stiff them.

Think about it. It's fairly well-acknowledged that playing live at lower limits is largely done for entertainment value, because of the size of the rake. So, why not increase one's entertainment value in any way possible? It is another way to maximise your utility as a player and a casino patron.

Imagine: you take down a big pot, and the dealer just has to sit there in dumb silence and sweat whether or not he's going to get a tip. And then, he realizes he isn't, and starts to deal the next hand with a little resentful curl in the side of his mouth! It's great, and I am tempted to laugh every time.

Once some dealer said something to me in broken English about "I work for tip" and I said, "No kidding," and then waited for him to deal the next hand as I collected a pot which, while not that large, was about what he might make in a day.

It's not like he's a waiter and is going to spit in my food or something. There's nothing he can do. It's great.

dicelumpY2005

07-23-2005, 05:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not like he's a waiter and is going to spit in my food or something. There's nothing he can do. It's great.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is great...when I've muck the hand of a stiff before when they were unprotected, or when I lied through my teeth to a floorman during a dispute, just to have the guy who stiffed me thrown out...you're right, there isn't a thing a dealer can do if they want to...

I can't crawl into the head of a tightwad and figure out their reasons for wanting to be a stiff when other dealers are in the box, but I have earned my tips through reasons other than dealing... Such as flagging down a cocktail waitress when I get out of the box... Grabbing chips for new players or racks for existing players... Helping carry chips up to the counter for those w/ 5 or more racks... To an extent some of you are right: you can train a monkey to deal cards. (not just poker, but blackjack, etc...) However, when I take the job I am given and go that extra mile, I think I deserve what I get. Can't say that for all the dealers, but its a "go for your own" job, and I do what I have to do...

47outs

08-01-2005, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is a poker dealer more deserving of the money?

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker dealers aren't more deserving. You should be tipping your kids teachers too. Don't be so cheap.

oouts

Jimmy The Fish

08-01-2005, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So... is $1 for every pot i win the right amount? Or should I wait untill the game is over and tip a few % of my winnings?

[/ QUOTE ]

Either one is good. You might ask the dealers whether they keep their individual tips, or whether all of the tips in the room are pooled together. (Depending on the casino, either scenario is possible.)

Oh, and your picture is priceless. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jimmy The Fish

08-01-2005, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If someone decides not to work at a software company for example since a programmer starts at like $35K in many cases and subsequently persues a position as a dealer since he can start making $50K now and drop out of college, we are worse off.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case, someone should tell the CEOs of the software companies to stop offshoring their programming jobs. As long as someone in India is willing to write code for $5K a year, the programmer is at a disadvantage.

Of course, that's how "free enterprise" works... the market sets the value of various jobs. You obviously don't like thinking that a dealer makes more than a programmer or a teacher -- but you don't get to make those decisions. The hundreds of casinos, thousands of dealers, and hundreds of thousands of poker players are the market that sets a dealer's wage... and no matter how loudly you shout, you're still being ignored.

I understand that lawyers loathe free markets, but I'm glad we haven't been corrupted into a command economy yet. /images/graemlins/wink.gif