The worst deal in the history of online poker [Archive]

timex

05-29-2006, 03:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, if it were up to me, deals wouldn't be allowed online. I just don't see why anyone plays that deep into a tournament, and then when the real money is on the line takes skill completely out of the equation.

Everyone knows how I feel about deals though. I've only ever done 1, and I still regret that one. The worst part is, if you make a deal, you either take a lower place and feel 'happy' about the deal since you made more for placing lower, or you take 1st and regret the deal since you lost money. I'd rather lose to a bad beat than lose because I have poor dealmaking skills /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-Rizen

[/ QUOTE ]

Rizen, how against deals are you, if you were offered the deal in stealth's shoes, would you take it? How about if offred 163k or something?

CJC0311

05-29-2006, 03:11 AM

i just dont think he plays at these limits and was happy to take home 80 grand, thats a TON of money, you pros can argue about + or - EV and while i aggree THIS deal was moronic, im sure he just wanted to get money assured to him..

Rizen

05-29-2006, 03:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, if it were up to me, deals wouldn't be allowed online. I just don't see why anyone plays that deep into a tournament, and then when the real money is on the line takes skill completely out of the equation.

Everyone knows how I feel about deals though. I've only ever done 1, and I still regret that one. The worst part is, if you make a deal, you either take a lower place and feel 'happy' about the deal since you made more for placing lower, or you take 1st and regret the deal since you lost money. I'd rather lose to a bad beat than lose because I have poor dealmaking skills /images/graemlins/frown.gif

-Rizen

[/ QUOTE ]

Rizen, how against deals are you, if you were offered the deal in stealth's shoes, would you take it? How about if offred 163k or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I wouldn't have even talked deal here and gotten this far, because I'd never ask for the possibility of making first, or more than first place, money. I'm too nice to even ask for this kind of money. I would know I was completley raping the other guys, and quite honestly I'm not sure I could do it. For me it's much easier on both my conscious and my pocketbook to not deal than to try and exploit other players. Just speaking for me though.

-Rizen

timex

05-29-2006, 03:34 AM

I typically try to get a deal that is good for me, without being bad for them.

Is the trip report on the one time you made a deal interesting?

I like to make deals primarily because I think that I become pretty terrible once it gets 3 handed, but I think I may set aside some time to learn to play 2-3 handed better, so that I can play more profitably once it gets so short-handed.

SNG's, here I come.

snagglepuss

05-29-2006, 03:38 AM

this is the most retarded deal of all time.

this reminds me of a deal i scammed my little cousin's friends into making once. they both were satisfied with chopping 2nd and 3rd money amongst themselves and giving me first.

the fact a deal similar to this took place for over 250k more dollars only goes to highlight just how dumb some people are.

Rizen

05-29-2006, 03:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I typically try to get a deal that is good for me, without being bad for them.

Is the trip report on the one time you made a deal interesting?

I like to make deals primarily because I think that I become pretty terrible once it gets 3 handed, but I think I may set aside some time to learn to play 2-3 handed better, so that I can play more profitably once it gets so short-handed.

SNG's, here I come.

[/ QUOTE ]

My one deal is in the 200k on Empire where iMsoLucky0 and I chopped it and left 3500 on the table. I'm sure the sweat thread is there somewhere. Obviously against a great player like Jordan I don't feel I gave up much (if any) equity.

Honestly, I think once things get shorthanded I'm even a better player than I am at full ring. My results support that as I have a very astonishing rate of top 3 (and even top 1) finishes in proportion to my amount of FTs. The fact that most people aren't good (or comfortable) short handed with large amounts of money on the line works to my advantage.

-Rizen

T_Mac

05-29-2006, 03:45 AM

Ok, apparently I made a horrible deal. But I'm a 22 year old student in debt, what do you want from me? Knowing how volatile 3 handed play is, I couldn't accept making 60k instead of a guaranteed 100k. 100k is life changing money for me. I think if Lobos had helped me pressure stealthmunk he might have budged, but lobos was satisfied with the offer, and I am satisfied with 100k.

timex

05-29-2006, 03:48 AM

I respect the fact that you requested more than initially offered, but I think you cracked a little bit too much. Obviously it is life changing money, but I think you could have milked more out of him, your EV was 105+ for sure.

Congrats on the big score!

McShove

05-29-2006, 03:54 AM

T Mac,

First of all, congrats on the 2nd place. 100k is indeed a lot of money.

What most people have a problem with concerning this deal is the question of EV. Simply put, you play a MTT to make it to the Final Table, like you did. At that point, you gave up thousands of dollars in EV by accepting this deal.

Nobody is questioning your MTT skills, but if you are playin g this tournament, you simply should not be willing to accept a deal where you lose so much money in EV.

I hope I didn't sound to harsh. Congrats on the big score, I did not watch most of the tourney, but you must have played pretty well to finish second.

timex

05-29-2006, 03:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
T Mac,

First of all, congrats on the 2nd place. 100k is indeed a lot of money.

What most people have a problem with concerning this deal is the question of EV. Simply put, you play a MTT to make it to the Final Table, like you did. At that point, you gave up thousands of dollars in EV by accepting this deal.

Nobody is questioning your MTT skills, but if you are playin g this tournament, you simply should not be willing to accept a deal where you lose so much money in EV.

I hope I didn't sound to harsh. Congrats on the big score, I did not watch most of the tourney, but you must have played pretty well to finish third.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Warren Harding

05-29-2006, 04:06 AM

I do not play such games, so I'm curious how you all would have devised a fair deal. Is there an objective formula?

I tried my own method by guaranteeing each of the three players last place money, then dividing the remainder- save 30000- according to proportion of chips held. Unfortunately, in the end, this method resembled giving first place money to the leader and splitting 2nd and 3rd more closely (like the actual deal).

timex

05-29-2006, 04:10 AM

It generally won't make a significant difference, but I tend to figure out how much they would each earn, then figure out the chance that they would earn 1st, and subtract that from their total.

This ICM thing calculates things nicely.

http://sharnett.bol.ucla.edu/ICM/ICM.html

psychocolate

05-29-2006, 04:41 AM

Chip counts are only an approximation of value and are closer to correct if the stack sizes are fairly uniform. With nonuniform stack sizes, the chip count method can be way off. What happened with this deal is the chip leader is actually getting more money than he should because he is taking it out of second place money. It then becomes a win-win situation for the chip leader: if he wins 1st, he is awarded more than 1st place money. If he gets unlucky and places 2nd or 3rd, he still gets (significantly) more than 2nd place money.

The ev method is a more accurate way of dealing. Using the above calculator, the payouts should have been (approximately):

$157,201
$104,293
$93,122

with $30,000 left for the winner.

Melchiades

05-29-2006, 05:41 AM

Gw T_mac. I can see where you are coming from, I would also be willing to give something up to guarantee 100k over 60k. Seems like a lot of people on here don't think like that at all. You should probably have gotten a few k more, but congrats on the huge score.

psyduck

05-29-2006, 07:04 AM

Boiler_bd

05-29-2006, 10:01 AM

T-mac, why didn't you just make a deal with the short stack in case you finished 2nd and third or 1st and third, you are guaranteed more money even if steel wins the thing.

0evg0

05-29-2006, 10:21 AM

Boiler_bd

05-29-2006, 10:51 AM

Also don't forget about the 5k minimum it would be worth to tell steal to go [censored] himself.

Cky3

05-29-2006, 11:35 AM

I find this hilarious because I've played with Stealthmunk... He would too...

stealthmunk

05-29-2006, 11:36 AM

Just wanna say, I'd obviously have gone down to 165k because i'm not an idiot. However, I understood my equity, and my leverage. So I used it. Now if only my JJ held vs A2 and I didn't blow up with AJss etc. I wouldve loved a cardplayer article post-rizen. Is it legit if you chop so you get more than first place? looool.

bobneptune

05-29-2006, 11:59 AM

worst deal ever...

rediculous....

retarded ......

c'mon. while it is clear t-mac didn't make a great deal for himself, christ almighty couldn't anyone point that out sans the invective.

here's a young guy who probably never negotiated a hummer from a lady of the evening or a car loan, and you guys expect him to act like he just came out of wharton with an mba ???

jeez, ya'll think he might have been under the gun just a little bit ??? he bought some insurance, and he just paid a little too much $$$ for it.

rather than 'diss'n him for his lack of donald trump skills, i'd be asking him nicely to see the hand history of the tourney to see his doyle brunson skills.

sirio11

05-29-2006, 12:15 PM

Just wanna say, I'd obviously have gone down to 165k because i'm not an idiot

Even 165k, it'd be a terrible, I mean, terrible deal for them.

I understood my equity,

Now, you're not, you just took advantage of 2 poor guys that had no clue at all about the situation. There are so many ways to make deals, and chip count is one of the worst, especially when the stacks are that different. It is just dumb to assume that your equity could be more than 1st place money.

mikeymer

05-29-2006, 12:18 PM

It's tough to fault someone for giving up a few $$ in equity when they have never been in a situation to earn six figures in one night. I think many of you are being a bit harsh.

NoahSD

05-29-2006, 12:21 PM

Sirio,
I don't think you should criticize a poker player for taking advantage of other people's stupidity to make money.

sirio11

05-29-2006, 12:26 PM

Sirio,
I don't think you should criticize a poker player for taking advantage of other people's stupidity to make money.

Haha, touche.

But I was more describing the situation, rather than criticizing.

adanthar

05-29-2006, 12:33 PM

T-mac,

You might get jumped on, but I understand where you're coming from. Giving up 5K in equity to secure the $ isn't terrible, it just looks bad because the other guy frankly got murdered.

Stealth,

Nice deal.

Titanium

05-29-2006, 01:42 PM

This is a laughably bad deal, and I understand that securing a big payday is what T-Mac was after. But he had already secured a big payday by making it into the final three places. The whole point of making a deal is to split the remaining money more EVENLY between the remaining players. The chip leader obviously had a huge advantage because of his massive chiplead, but you gave him MORE money than 1st place. If you do not understand why this is a really bad move, then it is amazing that you got that far in the tournament. The key to poker is making correct and sometimes very boarderline decisions, over and over and over again. How is it possible that a winning poker player (i.e. good decision maker) could ever agree to this deal?

I felt physically ill when this deal was being hashed out, and I really believe deal making should not be allowed.

BTW, congratulations on the ridiculously large pay-off that all of you got, and great job in the tourney to make it that far.

psychocolate

05-29-2006, 01:45 PM

As I understand it, 3rd place pays $69k. Just being results oriented, T_mac did receive $30k more than if they just played it out. Kinda like overpaying for life insurance but dying the next day.

psychocolate

05-29-2006, 01:49 PM

At the very least, pokerstars should have a better dealmaking method than chip count.

Exitonly

05-29-2006, 02:13 PM

NoahSD

05-29-2006, 02:31 PM

At the very least, pokerstars should have a better dealmaking method than chip count.

Yeah.. this kinda grosses me out. I guess it's hugely +EV for me since I know it and can use it to my advantage, but I still think it's horrible that they use this hugely simplified formula rather than just ICM.

TheNoodleMan

05-29-2006, 02:51 PM

NoahSD

05-29-2006, 03:47 PM

At the very least, pokerstars should have a better dealmaking method than chip count.

You can't blame stars for the short stacks being woefully ignorant. Their only responsability is to make sure that all parties agree to the deal.

Yeah.. but think about all the tournamnets in which one donkey unknowingly takes a ton of money from a bunch of other donkeys with stars's help. For some reason the thought of this really doesn't sit well with me.

FWIW, it's also bad for business, since we thinking players like the money to be as evenly distributed as possible amongst donkeys at a specific level.

sheetsworld

05-29-2006, 04:25 PM

TMAC....Congratulations for an excellent performance and a payday which i imagine far surpasses the highest cash of a good portion of the posters on these forums! You weaved through an enormous field and made it to final 3 and may have earned as much as your parents made in a year, and won enough money to pay for a good part of your college education, should you choose to do that with it! You made a decision to take an amount of money that may or may not have beEn less that your true "equity", and you made the deal by weighing factors other than the pure math. Your value of money is different than a billionaire, or for any other person for that matter, and also different from the all too elusive "optimal" person...Had you been a billionaire whose goals were solely to win win win, I imagine you may have refused the deal that even stealthemunk was offered, becuase the value of money would, again, have be different to you than the optimal person who acts solely based on ev.

A few hypothetical questions for people,,,

1.If you had 1 billion dollars to ur name and were offered a coinflip for the whole ball of wax getting 1.001-1, or for that matter, 2-1, would you accept it, knowing that to turn it dwon would be -ev?...If you accepted the 2-1, and then the opponent offered you 10 million to cancel it, would you?

2.If you were the father of a starving family in ethiopia, and someone handed you 100,000, then offered you 5-1 to flip the coin for the whole ball of wax, would you do it?

Obv these examples are of no practical value, but please please please, before destroying some kid because he simply placed a higher value on security (i.e he is more risk avers), consider the non ev non optimial non efifcient way of looking at these things....or in the alternative, consider the possibility that there each person has a different point along the efficient frontier, and there are subjective factors that must be incorporated in his decision makeing process.

sheets

Ansky

05-29-2006, 04:33 PM

Sheets,

The loser in those deals gets 0. He was already guarenteed mad mobneys regardless, and then passed up huge +EV anyway.

That said, I agree in general that it's silly for most people to just berate him without considering the situation he was in like he described. Your examples though are obviously extreme, and not too applicable I don't think. When you enter a poker tournament, you should do so with the intention of making the most +EV decisions you can make.

sheetsworld

05-29-2006, 04:36 PM

AS usual ansky, none of my examples are applicable...they hopefully stimulate thought though:(

Guaranteed mad moneys? What if he owed exactly 99k to a bookie or something? uh oh...another ridiculous example...o well...i think i made my ridiculous wimp ass liberal arts touchy feely pos point...

sheets

Ansky

05-29-2006, 04:49 PM

Yeah they do stimulate thought, I was just sort of disagreeing for the sake of it, I really don't care how the guy handles his money. I guess I was also trying to stimulate thought.

10K-in-Clay

05-29-2006, 04:54 PM

I was just trying to stimulate your mom OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHH BURN

0evg0

05-29-2006, 05:08 PM

I like sheets. Good guy.

sirio11

05-29-2006, 05:22 PM

Quote
------------

but please please please, before destroying some kid

-----------

LOL

Sorry, but don't be melodramatic sheets, I'd be shocked if this kid would be anything near destroyed by the comments on an internet forum. I bet he's pretty happy now.

I think almost everybody here understand why he did it; but that's not the point of the thread. Let's suppose instead of the deal they made they decide to do:

$242k for steal
$70k for T-Mac
$70k for Lobo

Are they allowed to do that because of whatever personal reason?

Sure

Is it expected to be a discussion about the issue in the MTT forum?

Of course, and I bet this discussion is going to help some other kid in the future. Because of discussions like this one, he will be able to negotiate and get what it's rightfully his.

It's not like it was really hard to make a good argument to get more money, for example:

"So stealthmunk, if we (lobo and TMac) take your deal, we'll get $184k and a chance to play for 30k. And if we don't make a deal, we'll get $186k and a chance to play for $105k, why in the world should we take that deal?"

It was unfortunate for T_Mac that Lobo was like desperate to be screwed, and for sure, PS support was terrible and made things even worse for him. But I think it's healthy to discuss all these issues in the forum to help a new kid to be prepared in the future.

Exitonly

05-29-2006, 05:46 PM

why is PS support terrible? they don't have to help the deal process at all, i dont think we can expect them to look out for the little guy, the little guy should know what he's getting into when he entered the tournamnet, or when he agreed to talk about a deal.
--------

are there ICM calculators/spreadsheets that calculate for all 9 spots? The popular one only uses 3 pay spots, and i've never seen one with more despite a good amount of interest in it. If there is one, then i think stars should switch over to that as the default chip chop #'s that they give out. But maybe they shouldnt even do that. I'd be fine if they just left the deal making completely up the players. Without saying what the 'fair' split is.

----

And for people that have like strict 'no chop' policies, i don't really udnerstand that, and i think you're costing yourself. I think it's easy to overestimate your edge at the end of a tournament. And someone said that making a deal takes the skill out of a tournament.. but dealmaking is just another skill. you're dealing for a reason, either because you think you can make a +EV deal or the extra guaranteed money might mean extra to you, or whatever. So, what i'm trying to say is that you make deals to help yourself, and if you never negotiate/listen to offers your costing yourself.

sheetsworld

05-29-2006, 05:46 PM

i agree with everything u said sirio, especially the part where you should discuss things on this forum in the attempt to help others....all healthy commentary pwns.

sheets

Beavis68

05-29-2006, 05:47 PM

so, what should the deal have been?

sirio11

05-29-2006, 06:08 PM

Quote
---------

why is PS support terrible?
---------

Exit, the host in duty, don't remember his name, was rushing T_Mac to make a decision, and there was no need at all for the rush. These guys are dealing for like thousands of dollars and the host looked like he was desperate for the tourney to finish. Very bad IMHO and definitely affected T_Mac.

NoahSD

05-29-2006, 06:16 PM

Nice post, exit.

I think someone posted a 9-person ICM spreadsheet at some point. It definitely can be done, although the formula's a bit annoying. But, christ, they run this giant poker web site, they can make a spreadsheet that does ICM calcs.

bobneptune

05-29-2006, 06:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote

But I think it's healthy to discuss all these issues in the forum to help a new kid to be prepared in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

sirio,

i could not agrre with you more on the worth of the discussion as pertaining to the subject matter. however some of the posters have taken it upon themselves to go out of their way to go beyond the reasonable bounds of civil discourse using highly derogatory terms towards someone who just so happended to kick all their collective genius behinds. so really , who is the chump ???

that sort of treatment of people is sometimes also known as "small penis disease".

two pieces of advice that haven't been offered is he should absolutely get a good tax accountant pronto and reserve ~ 40% of his winnings on the side somewhere where he cannot touch it , because uncle schmulie is coming 4/15/07 !!!

SmallPotJeff

05-29-2006, 07:15 PM

After seeing that botched deal last night, I was actually motivated enough to try and figure out a better system for getting a fair deal.

I actually put together a spreadsheet designed to generate a fair 3-way deal in which everyone's EV remains the same after accounting for money left on the table. (It's pretty flexible - you can also leave money for 2nd, replicate the original prize structure, adjust for players' skill levels, or do other interesting things with it)

Anyway, I already posted about it here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=5993782&an=0&page=1# Post5993782)
before I came across this thread on the awful pstars deal. Please post on that thread if you have any questions/suggestions regarding the spreadsheet, or would like me to work on one for 4 or 5 players.

I haven't looked at the ICM calculators mentioned in this thread, so I'm not sure if my spreadsheet acts in a similar fashion. The sheet I put together determines each player's chances of coming in first based on the portion of total chips they hold (adjusted for skill), then it determines their chances of coming in second in each condition where another player comes in first (again proportional to chips).

Anyway, according to my sheet and based on chip counts (with equal weighting for skill), at the time of the deal stealthmunk had a 70% chance of coming 1st place, 24.8% chance of coming in 2nd, and 5.1% chance of coming in 3rd. His expected value was $170,501.16 before the deal.
After the deal his expected value was $191,020.04!
The fair deal generated by the spreadsheet would have accorded stealthmunk $149,481.12, T_Mac $108,032.80, and lobojiji 97,102.09, with $30,000 left for first.

T_Mac

05-29-2006, 07:35 PM

I agree with a lot of whats been posted.

-Sheets, thanks I definitely agree that there are other issues at play in decisions like this than just EV

-Sirio, yeah I am happy about my winning lol...I don't mind constructive criticism, and I do hope other players might learn from my experience (I didn't realize stealth had the chance to win more than first prize, that is ridiculous). It's the posts like "how do idiots like this finish this high" that bother me...but I like the small-penis analogy bobneptune, and I have 100k reasons to not let it bother me

-the support guy was pressuring me, and it did bother me...I feel like support should let a deal be made independently of them, UNLESS something blatantly unfair is happening. PS obviously feels like they have some responsibility to players, as they dont allow anyone to sit 100/200 limit. In this case, if support had let me know stealth could make more than 1st place money I would have demanded a change. And yes, lobos was not at all helpful in my attempts to get stealth to give up some money.

-And as far as I know the point of deal-making isn't to spread the money fairly as one poster said, its to reduce variance. Last night I wasn't willing to play 3 handed bingo for 40k, maybe the next time I make this FT I will be.

sheetsworld

05-29-2006, 07:43 PM

I once did a 20 person icm spreadsheet one spot at a time just so i could say that i did it ...only took me 14 hours too....sure i could have paid someone 50 bucks to write code but what fun is that?....do it one time on ur own and see how the numbers work and u will be a better player for it...although u will def be a tad more insane.

(quad era demonstrandum)

fax mentis incendium gloria cultum etc etc memo bis punitor delicatum....

sheets

Exitonly

05-29-2006, 07:50 PM

i tried to do an icm spreadsheet once.. i got to two places, and then my brain exploded. Do you still have that? i know how icm works, i'm just curious as hell what all the [censored] in excel looks like.

edit:

and i suck, i took latin in highschool, and now i dont know [censored], wtf does taht say

iSTRONG

05-29-2006, 08:21 PM

fax mentis incendium gloria cultum etc etc memo bis punitor delicatum....

Exit, he's obviously saying that "his mentor is sending him a fax about his burning cultivated glory etc etc... and a memo for his delicate punishment."

I own at latin what.

shermanash

05-29-2006, 08:28 PM

exit- a quick google gives me "its all there, black and white, clear as crystal"

stealth, what was the magic number for you? What i mean is, how low were you willing to go if T-mac asked before you said '[censored] this - no deal"?

stealthmunk

05-29-2006, 08:46 PM

I don't understand.
Poker is all about exploiting your advantage over the other players.
Your conscious? (i assume you mean conscience) Are you serious? You play this game to make $. Not to make friends.
I saw a +EV oppurtunity to take advantage of two other players because of my chip leverage and the amount of $ on the line, and it worked. I guess it was karma when my JJ lost to A2 forthe 30k in your eyes? looool.

Oh ye, one more thing, sheets is my hero.
time to go out and party

munk.

Rizen

05-29-2006, 11:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand.
Poker is all about exploiting your advantage over the other players.
Your conscious? (i assume you mean conscience) Are you serious? You play this game to make $. Not to make friends.
I saw a +EV oppurtunity to take advantage of two other players because of my chip leverage and the amount of $ on the line, and it worked. I guess it was karma when my JJ lost to A2 forthe 30k in your eyes? looool.

Oh ye, one more thing, sheets is my hero.
time to go out and party

munk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the hate? I don't ever remember saying you (or anyone else) did anything wrong, just that if I were in your shoes, I would have behaved differently. Nothing wrong with that. If you'd been in my shoes last week, you might have behaved differently too.

My goal in poker is to have fun AND make money, but I'm also a softy at heart, and I'm too nice in deals (I think anyone would tell you I'm ruthless at the table). I know this gets me into trouble in deal making discussions, so I don't make them. Does this cost me EV?? Perhaps (I don't think it does). If my goal were simply to make money at any cost, maybe I would resort to bank robbery (extreme example). The point is, I never criticized your decisions (I may have said I disliked the deal, and I did, but that's not personal, just that I think it wasn't a good one for all involved, but it was obv good for you).

I appreciate you coming here and adding your .02 to the whole thing, but seriously, there is no point to attacking me or the way I choose to play and deal (or not deal). It's not karma or anything else that you lost, it's just cards. I don't think you did anything wrong taking advantage of the situation, I just wouldn't have done it personally. If you want to debate the content of this message and the merits of chopping vs not chopping I'm ALL EARS. If you want to hate on me or get into some sort of retarded e-penis measuring competition no thanks. I know where I stand.

-Rizen

Apathy

05-30-2006, 02:56 AM

Rizen,

I think the merits of chopping were clearly shown by the success he had in making this deal. If you could get a deal like that you are probably giving up EV by not dealing.

I do however appreciate your no dealing stance since it keeps the games friendlier and you won't ever hurt anyones feelings or have to worry about making a bad deal. I think since you play mainly (solely) MTTs for a living and should expect to be in that situation a number of times your decision to not deal ever is more wise.

Soulman

05-30-2006, 03:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
someone who just so happended to kick all their collective genius behinds. so really , who is the chump ???

that sort of treatment of people is sometimes also known as "small penis disease".

[/ QUOTE ]
Please don't make the argument that the guy who wins more money is obviously a way better player (hard to tell from your post). I agree that pounding on T_mac is just silly though.

sirio11

05-30-2006, 04:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the merits of chopping were clearly shown by the success he had in making this deal. If you could get a deal like that you are probably giving up EV by not dealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apathy:

Can you see the merits of multi-accounting and angle-shooting? Are you giving up EV by not doing it?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand.
Poker is all about exploiting your advantage over the other players. You play this game to make $. Not to make friends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stealthmunk:

Given the chance, Will you multi-account, angle-shoot?. After all, you say it's all about the $ right?

And BTW, I'm a deal making kind of guy, but the merits I see in the process of deal-making have more to do with variance and less to do with angle shooting my opponents.

Ansky

05-30-2006, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the merits of chopping were clearly shown by the success he had in making this deal. If you could get a deal like that you are probably giving up EV by not dealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apathy:

Can you see the merits of multi-accounting and angle-shooting? Are you giving up EV by not doing it?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand.
Poker is all about exploiting your advantage over the other players. You play this game to make $. Not to make friends.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stealthmunk:

Given the chance, Will you multi-account, angle-shoot?. After all, you say it's all about the $ right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow david how can you compare the 2?

I mean that's like saying check raising is wrong because it's deceptive, you have an edge at the end of a tournament because you understand the value of chips and ICM, so when you are discussing deals you understand what is profitable and what isn't. Multi-Accounting is maliciously breaking the rules to your advantage. There is nothing unethical about being better than your opponents at deal making.

yvesaint

05-30-2006, 04:52 AM

yea sirio comparing deal-making to multi-accounting is a far stretch

sirio11

05-30-2006, 04:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow david how can you compare the 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

He said, A it's ok because of B.

I was attacking B providing an example where B is exactly the same reason.

[ QUOTE ]
Multi-Accounting is maliciously breaking the rules to your advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget multi-accounting. There are a lot of examples of angle shooting that are within the rules. You want me to cite all of them? Is it ok to angle shoot to make more $?

Ansky

05-30-2006, 05:14 AM

When you say "ok" I don't quite know what you mean. I mean there are plenty of angle shooters out there and it's pretty low and disrespectful, but I wouldn't equate it with cheating (although it depends on what they are doing).

I think using people's fear and poor judgement to get yourself a better deal is not just smart but a skill in itself, and I definitely don't think it's immoral or unethical.

sirio11

05-30-2006, 05:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think using people's fear and poor judgement to get yourself a better deal is not just smart but a skill in itself

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not a fan of "everything goes", next time you'll see all kind of ridiculous proposals at the final table "just in case". And for sure I don't consider it skill at all to make ridiculous proposals at the final table "just in case". I know it's not cheating, I just think it's disrespectful to the game and my idea about poker skill it's quite different. I'm amazed about some of the things people consider poker skills just because we check raise or bluff in the game.

Ansky

05-30-2006, 07:19 AM

So...

2 consenting parties agree to a deal which by nature favors 1 party and not the other, this is disrespectful to the game? If you could have taken the chop from the bigstacks position you would have told the shortstacks that it wasn't fair to them? You serious?

What about adjusting for skill level? Suppose I were HU with an even stack against a player that I was significantly worse than, say even a 2-1 dog. What he offered me 40-60 and I took it. Is he being disrespectful to the game?

I just think when you start saying things like that are bad for the game/ disrespectful, it becomes a real fine line. Poker is a game of taking advantage of your skill edge. I have a conscience though, and I DO feel guilty sometimes about taking certain people's money. However, when I am playing I am 100% ruthless and I don't hesitate to take advantage of other players stupidity or lack of skill. I don't think you are any different. Part of playing MTTs these days is the ability to make a good deal at the end if you are going to deal at all. So if I am playing poker as hard as I can, I am going to be dealing as hard as I can, to get MYSELF the most money possible. Is that so unreasonable? That isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious if you think there is something wrong about that attitude?

THEOSU

05-30-2006, 10:13 AM

David,

is it immoral or inethical to refuse to deal if you don't receive less than a certain amount? I mean, yeah, if it's unrealistic then probably, but your argument here is ringing hollow.

sirio11

05-30-2006, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What about adjusting for skill level? Suppose I were HU with an even stack against a player that I was significantly worse than, say even a 2-1 dog. What he offered me 40-60 and I took it. Is he being disrespectful to the game?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. That's not what happened here, there's no skill level such that somebody deserves more than 1st place money.

Remeber this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=5988545&an=0&page=0#Post 5988545) Dani?. Do you think BodogAri used a poker skill because of the deal he made. Both, stealthmunk and BodogAri wanted to deal to achieve an objective and they exercised their "skills". Why is stealthmunk more ethical? Just because his objective was money? You can't have it both ways Dani.

[ QUOTE ]
I just think when you start saying things like that are bad for the game/ disrespectful, it becomes a real fine line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just think that dealing to get more than 1st place money has nothing to do with poker and has more to do with angle shooting. The same with the people who offer to deal in the final table when he already knows he will not deal, his only purpose is to mess with their opponents, when dealing, he made a demand, if they agree, then he change his demand to some other ridiculous demand and so on, I don't consider this a poker skill at all.

[ QUOTE ]
have a conscience though, and I DO feel guilty sometimes about taking certain people's money. However, when I am playing I am 100% ruthless and I don't hesitate to take advantage of other players stupidity or lack of skill. I don't think you are any different. Part of playing MTTs these days is the ability to make a good deal at the end if you are going to deal at all. So if I am playing poker as hard as I can, I am going to be dealing as hard as I can, to get MYSELF the most money possible. Is that so unreasonable? That isn't a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious if you think there is something wrong about that attitude?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand what you mean and I understand that the answer is just different for everybody. Of course I don't feel guilty if I take some other people's money while playing poker . I think the only difference it's what do we understand by playing poker. Our objective is to take other people's money, for some of us this involves playing poker (as in playing a poker hand). For some others involves cheating. Again, I'm not saying what happened here was cheating. It's clear it was not. I'm just saying I would not do it. And I don't consider a skill to deal to get more than 1st place money.

It's really easy to come up with examples when you have to make an ethical choice between winning the most money possible and what do you consider is the right thing to do?

Example: You are playing HU for a bracelet in a WSOP event, you both have about the same amount of chips and the blinds are kind of high. Your opponent says f-uck in a joyful way, nevertheless the tournament director hear him and give him a 10 min penalty. Playing as fast as you can would make you the most money for sure and it's not cheating if you do it. Will you do it? For me the answer is clear, most probably I would sit out too until the penalty is over.

Example: You are playing in a Omaha 8 game, you and your opponents show the cards at the end of the hand. The dealer misread your opponent's hand and push the pot your way, he doesn't notice either he has the winning hand (because of stupidity). Would you say something? It's not cheating if you don't say anything. I would correct the situation for sure, no doubt about that.

In the case at hand, if I deal at all, I'd have probably determined my fair share based on objective reasons (chip count) and subjective ones (skill level of my opponents), came up with a number and push hard to try to get that money. I'm pretty sure that number would be less than 1st place money.

Ansky

05-30-2006, 04:56 PM

Sirio,

I see your point, and I agree in both examples. Recently in a 1k HU against a regular he disconected and I sat out for 5 minutes until he returned.

However with regards to bodogari, the deal itself was fair, but to use it to gain his triple crown was wrong I think. The deal itself was not deceptive or underhanded was it?

blinlk182

05-30-2006, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1a.If you had 1 billion dollars to ur name and were offered a coinflip for the whole ball of wax getting 1.001-1, or for that matter, 2-1, would you accept it, knowing that to turn it dwon would be -ev?...If you accepted the 2-1, and then the opponent offered you 10 million to cancel it, would you?

[/ QUOTE ]

1b.If you had 2 billion dollars to ur name and were offered a coinflip for the 1 billion dollars 1.001-1, or for that matter, 2-1, would you accept it, knowing that to turn it dwon would be -ev?

Ansky

05-30-2006, 07:12 PM

Turning it down is neutral EV, not -EV.

Exitonly

05-30-2006, 07:13 PM

well, if there is a +EV option, neutral EV might aswell be -EV

Ansky

05-30-2006, 07:14 PM

Ray,

You don't play all day do you? You're prob +EV to play 18 hours a day. You don't though, is that -EV?

Exitonly

05-30-2006, 07:19 PM

In a purely $ view, yea, i think it is.

Not playing 18 hours a day is costing me money. = -ev.

NHFunkii

05-30-2006, 07:19 PM

this conversation has been had in a thread on the stt forum. it's not very interesting.

burningyen

05-31-2006, 01:51 AM

David, the difference between dealmaking and angle-shooting is that with dealmaking the "victim" can say no.

greg nice

06-03-2006, 09:53 PM

missed this thread

seems to me this is the best deal in the history of online poker

props to stealth for making a great deal

eespinola

06-06-2006, 05:33 PM

What a deal, Lol they must have convinced him that it was a good deal with psychic powers

PokerAmateur4

08-20-2006, 09:08 AM

So would this have been a "fair" deal, as in even EV for everyone if they were all of the same skill:
stealth: $193,146
tmac: $100,163
lobo: $91,129

--
177,112 to play for
5,240,000 chips
Everyone already has 69,168

Steal-3,671,500 = .70%=123,978
T mac=.175%=30,995
Lob=.124=21,961

Total $ for 1st-3rd: 384616
---

Yuv

08-20-2006, 11:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So would this have been a "fair" deal, as in even EV for everyone if they were all of the same skill:
stealth: $193,146
tmac: $100,163
lobo: $91,129

--
177,112 to play for
5,240,000 chips
Everyone already has 69,168

Steal-3,671,500 = .70%=123,978
T mac=.175%=30,995
Lob=.124=21,961

Total $ for 1st-3rd: 384616
---

[/ QUOTE ]

It took you 3 months to calculate that? Geez, that's some dedication to the forum. Well done.

A_Junglen

08-20-2006, 11:33 AM

lol...I picture a guy waking up in a cold sweat, dreaming of EV calculations, and sprinting to the computer.

zipppy

08-20-2006, 11:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
lol...I picture a guy waking up in a cold sweat, dreaming of EV calculations, and sprinting to the computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

so this thread will be bumped again around thanksgiving, right?

rothko

08-20-2006, 11:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So would this have been a "fair" deal, as in even EV for everyone if they were all of the same skill:
stealth: $193,146
tmac: $100,163
lobo: $91,129

--
177,112 to play for
5,240,000 chips
Everyone already has 69,168

Steal-3,671,500 = .70%=123,978
T mac=.175%=30,995
Lob=.124=21,961

Total $ for 1st-3rd: 384616
---

[/ QUOTE ]

way off; go back and rework your calculations. let us know what you come up with...around xmas time.

Supesimmo

08-20-2006, 12:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
lol...I picture a guy waking up in a cold sweat, dreaming of EV calculations, and sprinting to the computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao

Brandonjp13

08-20-2006, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol...I picture a guy waking up in a cold sweat, dreaming of EV calculations, and sprinting to the computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao

[/ QUOTE ]

haha thats great, as I was reading it I was visualizing a guy losing sleep over it, but dreaming of it is even better.

NHFunkii

08-20-2006, 12:49 PM

wow, I assumed this thread was bumped in timex's honor. cause I'm pretty sure he takes the cake. got a guy to give up $70,000 from his true equity.

stealthmunk

08-20-2006, 05:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wow, I assumed this thread was bumped in timex's honor. cause I'm pretty sure he takes the cake. got a guy to give up $70,000 from his true equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked this thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Stealthmunk Update /images/graemlins/smile.gif (I'm sure all the haters will say karmas a bitch)
13-10 in 5k hu smddddddddd
Random FTs in 55r/109r on various names
Inaugral 200r chop with timex for 21k /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Donked it up in turningstone, came back, parents found alcohol in car, gg another 25k and all my money, hello fight, hello fist through wall and tv flipped.
hello police.
arrested.
got a court date tomorrow and don't think I'm gonna go to college, and I'm broke /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))))

GL IN THE SUNDAY TOURNEYS EVERYONE AND CONGRATS TO TIMEX, HE DOESNT PLAY BAD EVEN THO HES JUST A CLASSIC HYPER AGGRO ONE TRICK MTTER, HE STILL CRUSHES /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))

sincerely,
stealthmunk
the only broke seventeen yearold who might be going to jail who has over 250k in pokerstars winnings.

cappla011

08-20-2006, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow, I assumed this thread was bumped in timex's honor. cause I'm pretty sure he takes the cake. got a guy to give up $70,000 from his true equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked this thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Stealthmunk Update /images/graemlins/smile.gif (I'm sure all the haters will say karmas a bitch)
13-10 in 5k hu smddddddddd
Random FTs in 55r/109r on various names
Inaugral 200r chop with timex for 21k /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Donked it up in turningstone, came back, parents found alcohol in car, gg another 25k and all my money, hello fight, hello fist through wall and tv flipped.
hello police.
arrested.
got a court date tomorrow and don't think I'm gonna go to college, and I'm broke /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))))

GL IN THE SUNDAY TOURNEYS EVERYONE AND CONGRATS TO TIMEX, HE DOESNT PLAY BAD EVEN THO HES JUST A CLASSIC HYPER AGGRO ONE TRICK MTTER, HE STILL CRUSHES /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))

sincerely,
stealthmunk
the only broke seventeen yearold who might be going to jail who has over 250k in pokerstars winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sucks. But I highly doubt you're going to jail. I've been arrested plenty of times, got a DUI and still dont have my license back, and have tried fighting a cop while highly intoxicated (resisting arrest, assault, fake ID, drunk in public, and underage drinking for that one), and I've never seen any jail time. And I'm just a two year older than you /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Words of advice - Get a gooooooooooooood lawyor. Get a job, and you'll be back on your feet in no time.

bigballz

08-20-2006, 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow, I assumed this thread was bumped in timex's honor. cause I'm pretty sure he takes the cake. got a guy to give up $70,000 from his true equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked this thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Stealthmunk Update /images/graemlins/smile.gif (I'm sure all the haters will say karmas a bitch)
13-10 in 5k hu smddddddddd
Random FTs in 55r/109r on various names
Inaugral 200r chop with timex for 21k /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Donked it up in turningstone, came back, parents found alcohol in car, gg another 25k and all my money, hello fight, hello fist through wall and tv flipped.
hello police.
arrested.
got a court date tomorrow and don't think I'm gonna go to college, and I'm broke /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))))

GL IN THE SUNDAY TOURNEYS EVERYONE AND CONGRATS TO TIMEX, HE DOESNT PLAY BAD EVEN THO HES JUST A CLASSIC HYPER AGGRO ONE TRICK MTTER, HE STILL CRUSHES /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))

sincerely,
stealthmunk
the only broke seventeen yearold who might be going to jail who has over 250k in pokerstars winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

only solution is to frame your mom for something and ship her to jail

j_allstar

08-20-2006, 06:09 PM

this forum has run amuck

NHFunkii

08-20-2006, 06:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow, I assumed this thread was bumped in timex's honor. cause I'm pretty sure he takes the cake. got a guy to give up $70,000 from his true equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked this thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Stealthmunk Update /images/graemlins/smile.gif (I'm sure all the haters will say karmas a bitch)
13-10 in 5k hu smddddddddd
Random FTs in 55r/109r on various names
Inaugral 200r chop with timex for 21k /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Donked it up in turningstone, came back, parents found alcohol in car, gg another 25k and all my money, hello fight, hello fist through wall and tv flipped.
hello police.
arrested.
got a court date tomorrow and don't think I'm gonna go to college, and I'm broke /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))))

GL IN THE SUNDAY TOURNEYS EVERYONE AND CONGRATS TO TIMEX, HE DOESNT PLAY BAD EVEN THO HES JUST A CLASSIC HYPER AGGRO ONE TRICK MTTER, HE STILL CRUSHES /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))

sincerely,
stealthmunk
the only broke seventeen yearold who might be going to jail who has over 250k in pokerstars winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

only solution is to frame your mom for something and ship her to jail

[/ QUOTE ]

SHIP IT

stealth - sorry to hear that, you should really look into getting some therapy or something

VarlosZ

08-20-2006, 06:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow, I assumed this thread was bumped in timex's honor. cause I'm pretty sure he takes the cake. got a guy to give up $70,000 from his true equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked this thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Stealthmunk Update /images/graemlins/smile.gif (I'm sure all the haters will say karmas a bitch)
13-10 in 5k hu smddddddddd
Random FTs in 55r/109r on various names
Inaugral 200r chop with timex for 21k /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Donked it up in turningstone, came back, parents found alcohol in car, gg another 25k and all my money, hello fight, hello fist through wall and tv flipped.
hello police.
arrested.
got a court date tomorrow and don't think I'm gonna go to college, and I'm broke /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))))

GL IN THE SUNDAY TOURNEYS EVERYONE AND CONGRATS TO TIMEX, HE DOESNT PLAY BAD EVEN THO HES JUST A CLASSIC HYPER AGGRO ONE TRICK MTTER, HE STILL CRUSHES /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))

sincerely,
stealthmunk
the only broke seventeen yearold who might be going to jail who has over 250k in pokerstars winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

17, huh? If I were one of the guys who were in on that chop, I'd be on the horn to PokerStars right now demanding that they confiscate your winnings and split 'em up between me and the other guy. In the future, you should be more careful about what you decide to share online.

bigballz

08-20-2006, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wow, I assumed this thread was bumped in timex's honor. cause I'm pretty sure he takes the cake. got a guy to give up $70,000 from his true equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked this thread /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Stealthmunk Update /images/graemlins/smile.gif (I'm sure all the haters will say karmas a bitch)
13-10 in 5k hu smddddddddd
Random FTs in 55r/109r on various names
Inaugral 200r chop with timex for 21k /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Donked it up in turningstone, came back, parents found alcohol in car, gg another 25k and all my money, hello fight, hello fist through wall and tv flipped.
hello police.
arrested.
got a court date tomorrow and don't think I'm gonna go to college, and I'm broke /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))))

GL IN THE SUNDAY TOURNEYS EVERYONE AND CONGRATS TO TIMEX, HE DOESNT PLAY BAD EVEN THO HES JUST A CLASSIC HYPER AGGRO ONE TRICK MTTER, HE STILL CRUSHES /images/graemlins/smile.gif)))

sincerely,
stealthmunk
the only broke seventeen yearold who might be going to jail who has over 250k in pokerstars winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

17, huh? If I were one of the guys who were in on that chop, I'd be on the horn to PokerStars right now demanding that they confiscate your winnings and split 'em up between me and the other guy. In the future, you should be more careful about what you decide to share online.

[/ QUOTE ]

the money is obv not in the account still

VarlosZ

08-20-2006, 06:38 PM

It's not? I couldn't decipher 80% of his post, so I'll take your word for it. In that case, I'd just get him kicked off out of spite.

NHFunkii

08-20-2006, 06:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's not? I couldn't decipher 80% of his post, so I'll take your word for it. In that case, I'd just get him kicked off out of spite.

[/ QUOTE ]

first of all, that makes you a pretty big [censored]. second, if they confiscated his money, you would get exactly $0 of it, just as you would deserve (assuming you were in on this deal). third, it's pretty common knowledge that he's underage and also that he has other accounts on stars

costanza_g

08-20-2006, 06:53 PM

VarlosZ

08-20-2006, 06:58 PM

Huh? I'm in a 3-way chop for hundreds of thousands of dollars with someone who has basically lied and cheated his way into the tournament, and wanting my money back makes me a douche?

[ QUOTE ]
second, if they confiscated his money, you would get exactly $0 of it, just as you would deserve (assuming you were in on this deal).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's necessarily true. It's not a lock, but I think Stars would be hard-pressed just to keep the money from the prize pool.

[ QUOTE ]
third, it's pretty common knowledge that he's underage and also that he has other accounts on stars

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently it's not common knowledge to Stars, so what difference does that make? And if it's common knowledge that he's underage and playing with multiple accounts, why hasn't he already been ratted out and banned?

Yuv

08-20-2006, 07:02 PM

This thread got A LOT better.

BadgerPro

08-20-2006, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This thread got A LOT better.

[/ QUOTE ]

THEOSU

08-20-2006, 07:08 PM

stealth,

leaving alcohol in your car is pretty daft.

NHFunkii

08-20-2006, 07:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Huh? I'm in a 3-way chop for hundreds of thousands of dollars with someone who has basically lied and cheated his way into the tournament, and wanting my money back makes me a douche?

[ QUOTE ]
second, if they confiscated his money, you would get exactly $0 of it, just as you would deserve (assuming you were in on this deal).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that's necessarily true. It's not a lock, but I think Stars would be hard-pressed just to keep the money from the prize pool.

[ QUOTE ]
third, it's pretty common knowledge that he's underage and also that he has other accounts on stars

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently it's not common knowledge to Stars, so what difference does that make? And if it's common knowledge that he's underage and playing with multiple accounts, why hasn't he already been ratted out and banned?

[/ QUOTE ]

you consider playing underage "cheating"? wtf? yes it's technically against the rules, but if you think it's cheating you're insane. Why would stars have trouble keeping the money out of the prize pool? They kept the money they confiscated from zeejustin and he ACTUALLY cheated.

"Wanting my money back" - what money? If it wasn't the 17 year old it would be some other guy, you have no right whatsoever to that money.

The reason he hasn't been ratted out is that the people who know what his accounts are aren't [censored] enough to rat him out for gambling underage.

VarlosZ

08-20-2006, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you consider playing underage "cheating"? wtf? yes it's technically against the rules, but if you think it's cheating you're insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it's cheating, exactly, but it's not an important distinction. Having unknown children at the tables is really bad for online poker. Having known children at the tables is even worse. And having known children winning tons of money in high profile tournaments is worse still. He entered the tournament under false pretenses and should be disqualified retroactively. He has no claim on the money, either legally or ethically.

[ QUOTE ]
Why would stars have trouble keeping the money out of the prize pool?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the same reason that they have trouble keeping all the money from colluders: the players who lost money to the offending party have more claim on it than PokerStars. If it can be determined how much money should go to whom, then restitution should be made.

[ QUOTE ]
"Wanting my money back" - what money? If it wasn't the 17 year old it would be some other guy, you have no right whatsoever to that money.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was my equity, it should be confiscated by Stars, and I (hypothetically) should get it back because I bought into a tournament with a $1.17M prize pool, not a $1M prize pool (or whatever the actual number were).

[ QUOTE ]
The reason he hasn't been ratted out is that the people who know what his accounts are aren't [censored] enough to rat him out for gambling underage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand why his friends wouldn't say anything, but random internet acquaintences? Playing underage is harmful, whether or not everyone recognizes it. Playing with multiple accounts is harmful, and everyone does recognize it. I still don't get it.

multious

08-20-2006, 08:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you consider playing underage "cheating"? wtf? yes it's technically against the rules, but if you think it's cheating you're insane.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say it's cheating, exactly, but it's not an important distinction. Having unknown children at the tables is really bad for online poker. Having known children at the tables is even worse. And having known children winning tons of money in high profile tournaments is worse still. He entered the tournament under false pretenses and should be disqualified retroactively. He has no claim on the money, either legally or ethically.

[ QUOTE ]
Why would stars have trouble keeping the money out of the prize pool?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the same reason that they have trouble keeping all the money from colluders: the players who lost money to the offending party have more claim on it than PokerStars. If it can be determined how much money should go to whom, then restitution should be made.

[ QUOTE ]
"Wanting my money back" - what money? If it wasn't the 17 year old it would be some other guy, you have no right whatsoever to that money.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was my equity, it should be confiscated by Stars, and I (hypothetically) should get it back because I bought into a tournament with a $1.17M prize pool, not a $1M prize pool (or whatever the actual number were).

[ QUOTE ]
The reason he hasn't been ratted out is that the people who know what his accounts are aren't [censored] enough to rat him out for gambling underage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand why his friends wouldn't say anything, but random internet acquaintences? Playing underage is harmful, whether or not everyone recognizes it. Playing with multiple accounts is harmful, and everyone does recognize it. I still don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]
He ethically has no claim to that money... LOLOLOLOL

Jeremy517

08-20-2006, 08:46 PM

I realize the thread has shifted off-course a bit, but I'll share the deal I got anyways.

Three left in a 600-person Party tournament. The chip leader has about 60% of the chips, I've got 21% of the chips, and the other person has the last 19%. The chip leader offers us an even split...

timex

08-20-2006, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I realize the thread has shifted off-course a bit, but I'll share the deal I got anyways.

Three left in a 600-person Party tournament. The chip leader has about 60% of the chips, I've got 21% of the chips, and the other person has the last 19%. The chip leader offers us an even split...

[/ QUOTE ]

My first deal was somewhat similar http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post5027942 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=beats&Number=5027942&Sear chpage=1&Main=5027942&Words=%2B180+%2Bsng+timex&to pic=&Search=true#Post5027942)

VarlosZ

08-20-2006, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He ethically has no claim to that money... LOLOLOLOL

[/ QUOTE ]

It's debatable, and of course he did put up the entry fee, so perhaps "no claim" could be an overstatement. OTOH, he lied to get into the tournament, and he knew that his money could be legitimately confiscated at any time when he did it. Since he wouldn't be justified in protesting if his money was confiscated, doesn't it follow that he has no claim on it if caught?

Jeremy517

08-20-2006, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I realize the thread has shifted off-course a bit, but I'll share the deal I got anyways.

Three left in a 600-person Party tournament. The chip leader has about 60% of the chips, I've got 21% of the chips, and the other person has the last 19%. The chip leader offers us an even split...

[/ QUOTE ]

My first deal was somewhat similar http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post5027942 (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=beats&Number=5027942&Sear chpage=1&Main=5027942&Words=%2B180+%2Bsng+timex&to pic=&Search=true#Post5027942)

[/ QUOTE ]

Please share tips on how you parlayed this into 330k, so that I may do the same. Thanks.

PS. Congrats

Soulman

08-21-2006, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Donked it up in turningstone, came back, parents found alcohol in car, gg another 25k and all my money, hello fight, hello fist through wall and tv flipped.
hello police.
arrested.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wtf, your parents confiscated your money? You fought them? Or is this not at all related to your parents? Sure hope not...

PokerAmateur4

08-23-2006, 11:14 PM

Thanks to my bump everoyne gets to share in controversy.

All I ask is that someone tells me what a fair split would have been and why.

I need to get some sleep, I've been awake for the past 3 months. (Actually I just started randomly sifting through posts in this forum searching by largest number of views, sorry if I was late?)

Sponger.

08-24-2006, 02:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1.If you had 1 billion dollars to ur name and were offered a coinflip for the whole ball of wax getting 1.001-1, or for that matter, 2-1, would you accept it, knowing that to turn it dwon would be -ev?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually accepting it is -EV

kemystery

08-24-2006, 03:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1.If you had 1 billion dollars to ur name and were offered a coinflip for the whole ball of wax getting 1.001-1, or for that matter, 2-1, would you accept it, knowing that to turn it dwon would be -ev?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually accepting it is -EV

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see why?

HavanaBanana

08-24-2006, 12:08 PM

I just saw this thread, and no one commented on Stars unfair advice through chipcounts when the players are dealing?

The least they could do is to give the EV numbers, NOT the chip numbers which are incorrect unless there are 2 players left or all players have same chip count.

I have made myself spreadsheets just in the event I get into a dealmaking position.

I have taken slightly bad deals in the past, didn't care, but atleast I knew what I did.

ToT

HavanaBanana

08-24-2006, 12:10 PM

PS: Where is Barbara Yoon when you need her?
Sorry she is dead /images/graemlins/frown.gif

ToT

stealthmunk

08-24-2006, 01:55 PM

stealthmunk update for all the fans /images/graemlins/smile.gif God i love this thread.
After talking to my lawyer, I have basically a route that will get me out of this bs charge, and hopefully free.
I'll be leaving for Muhlenberg University tomorrow morning. =/ I gotta go to some bs anger management and he told me to just [censored] through it because he knows I'm a smart kid, who just lost his cool one day with parents. I mean, anyone who knows me knows I'm a chill, not angry kid at all, except maybe sometimes when I'm drunk. Only when your mom calls you and your friends lowlives and spits in your face, can fists start going through walls. =/
My parents compensated me some money, so i have some sort of a roll, but very hard for me to get money online as obv my parents don't support it and I'm 17.
However, I do have a backer for the WCOOP, and a safe account for the WCOOP which obv will be secret but I guarantee a FT or two. Then, hopefully I parlay some WCOOP earnings, and some of my roll not taken from parents or the US government (really [censored] big time because my dad makes a lot of money /yr being a doctor and my money makes it even higher tax bracket, plus i'm gonna have to compensate a 2% diff or some bs. F TAXES AI?#B@T@

I'll be trying to attend at least one EPT event.
And Pokerstars Carribean Adventure.
So if you do the math I'll be completely busto by 2008.

funkimunki owns
pzzzzzz

Ansky

08-24-2006, 02:02 PM

Can I back you for the 5k horse event please?

stealthmunk

08-24-2006, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can I back you for the 5k horse event please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic and respond with i hate you and I hate limit poker. I would love to call you a stupid donkey on top of that, but sadly you are a very very good poker player in both donkaments and cash. I still hate you for that time you made me bubbled a big 109r me running my QQ into your AA.

nothing but friendly to 2+2 all star ansky/supernova9 at the tables but I guess people just love to hate.

time to enjoy my last day in CT.
hope you go broke ansky/supernova9
pz

TomHimself

08-24-2006, 02:11 PM

where the hell is muhlenberg university? and jesus how many Accounts and netellers do u have

stealthmunk

08-24-2006, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
where the hell is muhlenberg university? and jesus how many Accounts and netellers do u have

[/ QUOTE ]

infinite accounts-many friends register just to watch me play, and then i use there accounts.
0 nettellers, never deposited, 50$ transfer a while back n made final 3tables of the mill for 2k
haven't looked back since.

Ansky

08-24-2006, 02:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I back you for the 5k horse event please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic and respond with i hate you and I hate limit poker. I would love to call you a stupid donkey on top of that, but sadly you are a very very good poker player in both donkaments and cash. I still hate you for that time you made me bubbled a big 109r me running my QQ into your AA.

nothing but friendly to 2+2 all star ansky/supernova9 at the tables but I guess people just love to hate.

time to enjoy my last day in CT.
hope you go broke ansky/supernova9
pz

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa dude chill out I was just joking around- I'm not gonna play that- let alone stake someone else. I have never given you any [censored] before, I don't think ur a cheater or imorral or any of that jazz, ur solid from what I've seen and ur fun to play with at the table. If you want me to go broke sorry, I don't really plan on it.

Hope that wasn't any real hate.

stealthmunk

08-24-2006, 04:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I back you for the 5k horse event please?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic and respond with i hate you and I hate limit poker. I would love to call you a stupid donkey on top of that, but sadly you are a very very good poker player in both donkaments and cash. I still hate you for that time you made me bubbled a big 109r me running my QQ into your AA.

nothing but friendly to 2+2 all star ansky/supernova9 at the tables but I guess people just love to hate.

time to enjoy my last day in CT.
hope you go broke ansky/supernova9
pz

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa dude chill out I was just joking around- I'm not gonna play that- let alone stake someone else. I have never given you any [censored] before, I don't think ur a cheater or imorral or any of that jazz, ur solid from what I've seen and ur fun to play with at the table. If you want me to go broke sorry, I don't really plan on it.

Hope that wasn't any real hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

No real hate.
Although when you made me bubble that 109r i wanted to jump off a cliff.
I'm a winner in like every tourney but the friggin 109r, its like an autojynx.

And to actually be on topic....anyone who thinks I'm a cheater is out of their mind.

In 3months do I magically obtain some sort of higher knowledge to make my online gambling moral/right? heh. Only diff is unlike actionjeff's understanding parents/ozzy87s older brother....I have parents who are completely anti-poker.
i run g00t in life.
I guess being forced to go to college by default/advice from lawyer will probably end up being +EV for my life.