***Official Psychology of Poker Study Group Thread (Week 1)***

[deacsoft]

Hello everyone, and welcome to the 1st week of the POP study group. This weeks reading is for pages 1-62. Doing the exercise on pages 289-294 is encouraged. The group discussion will take place on Wednesday the 18th at a time to be announced shortly. Keep an eye on this thread for the official start time. The thread will be unlocked and open for discussion at that time.

I'd also like to send out a thank you to ottsville for spawning the idea for this group. ottsville is currently trying to put together a live group chat for the discussion via AIM (can be downloaded free at www.aim.com (http://www.aim.com)). PM ottsville your AIM screen name if you'd like to be in the live chat as well as the forum discussion.

That's about it for now. Watch this thread for updates, and hopefully a special announcement. Enjoy your reading and I'll be looking forward to joining you all for the first study session.

Cheers,

deacsoft

[deacsoft]

We will be having our chat tomorrow at 10:30 eastern and anyone who is interested, who hasn't already done so, should PM ottsville your AIM.

[deacsoft]

PS This thread will be unlocked at the start of the discussion (Wednesday, Jan. 18th at 10:30 eastern). Those of you who can't or don't wish to join the live chat will have this thread open for discussion. We are going to try to post the live chat as well.

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
... and hopefully a special announcement.

[/ QUOTE ]

The announcement is now. Great news gang. Dr. Schoonmaker (the author of POP) has agreed to join us in our study and discussion of POP. He will be dropping in on our threads here when he has time and will be offering his insight and knowledge. I think we're all very fortunate that he's willing to support our growth as poker players and provide us an oppertunity to better understand his book. Thanks, Dr. Schoonmaker!

[Al Schoonmaker]

Of course, I'm flattered that you're studying my book. Alas, Wednesday is my busiest day. The Wednesday Poker Discussion Group meets at 2, and I have to play at RoyalVegasPoker.com's Beat the Experts Tournament at 5.

Although I won't be able to get here often, I will certainly come back from time to time. Thank you for starting this groups and inviting me to attend.

A live group using AIM or other messenger service is far better than anything other than a face to face group. But there is no substitute for face to face contact. You are all invited to attend meetings of the Wednesday Poker Discussion Group whenever you're in Las Vegas. You can read about us at wpdglv.com.

Warmest regards,

Al

[ottsville]

First off, thanks Dr Al for joining us!

We had a good live chat last night regarding the first 62 pages of POP. Thanks to Deacsoft, flawedchip, and Rosswantstopoker for joining in. We will be covering pages 62 to 154 next wed @ 9:30pm eastern. Anyone who is interested is welcome to join in(pm me and I'll send you my AIM id).

For those who can't join us for our live chats, we'll be continuing the discussion here.

[ottsville]

POP has some great info for understanding how, and more importantly why, people play the way they do.

The first section that we discussed last night focuses on exploring your own motives for playing. Do you understand why you play? Think that it's just for the money? That's a big part for many of us, but if that were the only reason, or even the big reason by far, we would all be doing whatever it takes to become winners. Other factors come into play, like socializing, thrill of gambling, thrill of winning, personal challenge, etc...what are your reasons for playing and how much does each factor weigh in the sum of reasons to play?

[Bigblindal]

Hello Fellow 2+2ers,
Sorry I couldn’t make the online chat. I would like to start off by giving a bit of background on myself.

Poker has been in my life all my life, as my mother played penny poker for over 30 years once a week. I am not a girl so I didn’t get to play much, plus that’s what mom did for fun. In the last three years I have been playing more and more poke. My playing was once every three months for a few years to now once a week at a home game NL tournament with a cash game after, plus a few tips to the card house.
So with this increase in spending money I though it would be best to do a little studying. I have read the following books.
Hold’em Poker by David Sklansky
Small Stakes Hold’em by Ed, David and Mason
Little Green Book by Phil Gordon
I am now currently reading and rereading POP. The first 62 pages have got me to think about poker in a different light.

From page 9-22 the Central Principles are laid out. These eight principles get you to focus on yourself and others to help improve your game.

The best one’s for me so far are Principle 6 Think Visibly. This Principle has open a big door for me and I hope to build on it. Principle 2 I have seen looking back at a night of poke at card house playing 3/6. A LAP sat down and the whole table went LAP with him. I didn’t think about what happen till now. So now I am on the look out for this more.

The one Principle that I am having a hard time with is number 4. I am not the best people reader, so knowing there desires and fears is a bit over my head. I would think you would need to really get to know a person on a person level to know what drives them to do what they do. I am sure there are on the surface tells about person that can clue one in to there playing style and it is easy to spot the LAP.

The Right Stuff!
There are 12 characteristic you need to have the “Right Stuff”. I have a couple and need to work a few. The Think Visibly is a big one for me. I not sure how to improve on some of these, Characteristic 3 having Self Control could take some time for me. I haven’t read the rest of the book so I don’t know if there is any advice on how to improve on these points
My Motive’s for playing.
Socialize, meet people 5%
Get excitement of risk 10%
Test self against competitive challenges 25%
Sense of accomplishment from winning 60%
The Right Skills
Wow! I could use some more skills! From pagers 40-62 there is lot to think about, plus many other books suggested to read to improve one’s skill. I see a lot more studying in my future.

I am looking forward to reading the rest of the book twice or three times. I hope this post was not too huge. I also hope this post was what other’s where looking for. I am not the best writer in the world, and I am a bit new to this type of discussion.

Thank You for your time,

BigBlindAl

[ottsville]

Thinking visibly is a simple thing that can really have an impact on your game. Like many players, I find that when I get bored, I start to play more hands than I should. When I started "thinking visibly" I found that I could resist the temptation to play more hands. You realize what is happening when you say to yourself, "I'm going to play this K6s in EP because I've folded 20 hands in a row and I want to play..." It's easy then to realize that this type of play is not in line with your goals.

[ottsville]

Good to hear from you Al...

[ QUOTE ]
The one Principle that I am having a hard time with is number 4. I am not the best people reader, so knowing there desires and fears is a bit over my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's even harder when playing online! You play live a bit, so you have a lot more information available about each player. When we start getting into the player types next week, you'll see how this relates to styles of play and how to compensate your play against them.

There was two things that I thought were really interesting in the book(though they were touched on only briefly) and we didn't discuss them last night - the first being how personality carries over to the game, the risk taker carries his risk taking to the table; the conservative aggreeable guy is the calling station, etc.. The other thing is Dr Al says that TAG players are made not born. There are very few people who naturally have that TAG personality. He gives police as an example, although most of the police I know do not naturally have that personality. The fact that most people do not naturally have that inclination gave me hope that I can develop that aspect of my game more fully.

[deacsoft]

Well, everyone... not too much to discuss for the first section of our reading. The first half was a very good intro to the entire book. After that, it was mainly dealing with yourself. The things that ottsville pointed out in his post above and some other things as well. I encourage everyone in the study group to go back to that section every so often and re-evaluate yourself. This is my second time through POP and I learned a lot about how much my style of play and motives have changed over the last year+. I hope everyone puts a lot of thought into the excercises Dr. Schoonmaker lays out in our first reading. I know they will be of great influence over the remaining sections. Then have the first week's conversation with yourself and feel free to post thoughts, feelings, and questions.

[deacsoft]

I think your post is great. I hope others can use your example to aid them in their thinking and discussion. I'm glad to have you with us. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ottsville]

We've gotten a lot of interest for this for next week. We've got about ten new names who have said they would liek to join us. Please keep the discussion going during the week here though...

[Don Olney]

I think you guys have picked the right book by the right guy to do this with...If I had more time I would join you guys...
Dr. Al is in my "top 10 poker minds" I trust---
and bing in the top 10 is hard to do with me--in fact, there are only 4 people in my top 10 right now---
Don O

[ottsville]

We'll be chatting again on Wed night - 9:30 eastern - about pages 62-154. All are welcome to join us. We use AIM< so anybody that is interested, PM me and I'll give you my AIM ID so you can participate.

Anybody have anything specific from those pages they want to discuss?

[Bigblindal]

Hi Everybody,
Once again I will not be able to join in the chat tonight. I will be playing poker! Home game 1-2 NL wish me luck.
Plus I haven't read up to page 154. I would like to have read it twice before making any comments. I think I can get that done by next Wed Feb 1.
Could you post the log of the chat please?

BBA

[deacsoft]

The chat log is something we'll be trying to get posted shortly after the chat concludes or tomorrow at the latest. I'm sure this weeks discussion will be a lot more informative then last weeks given the nature of this weeks reading. Sorry, you'll be missing the chat, but good luck in the home game. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[deacsoft]

We had a pretty decent chat tonight. I'll be posting it tomorrow after I have a chance to edit it a little.

The next pages to be covered will be 156-244. The discussion will take place next Wednesday at 9:30 EST. As always, PM ottsville if you're interested in being involved in the live chat. Hope to have some great discussion in this thread soon and to see more of you for the live chat sessions.

Cheers,

deacsoft

[CappyAA]

Where can I find the log for the first week of chat? I didn't know about this thread until today and I want to catch up before next week.

[deacsoft]

Unfortunately week one's chat in not available. Week two's will be posted this afternoon/evening.

[deacsoft]

Here is the chat log from last night's discussion.

[20:37] ottsville7: gAmes selection?
[20:38] deacsoft9: a very interesting chapter for me as it is something I'm trying to work on currently
[20:38] ottsville7: me too...
[20:38] ottsville7: I've found there are tables that it's just better not to play at.
[20:39] ottsville7: I've been playing stars lately, and table selection there seems to be more important than at party
[20:40] deacsoft9: what kind of things are you looking for?
[20:40] ottsville7: at stars...
[20:40] ottsville7: tables seem tight at 1/2
[20:40] ottsville7: I've foudn that 2/4 has more players to the flop often
[20:41] deacsoft9: you like loose passive or loose aggro?
[20:41] ottsville7: I can deal with tight passive and tight agg, but loose agg I have trouble with
[20:42] ottsville7: loose passive is ideal
[20:42] ottsville7: you?
[20:42] deacsoft9: i seek out maniacs
[20:42] ottsville7: why?
[20:43] deacsoft9: but i like a nice mixture of people who don't play as well as I do but like to have 1 or 2 good to decent players as well
[20:43] deacsoft9: the maniacs are purely profit
[20:43] ottsville7: I agree with having a good player or two.
[20:44] ottsville7: I always seem to find LUCKY maniacs
[20:44] ottsville7: the ones that hit their lucky draws
[20:44] deacsoft9: the mix is for building nice multi-way pots, and the decent players to protect me once in a while
[20:44] ottsville7: yes...the agg players attack the maniac andbuild a pot
[20:44] Fencron3: Do you use pokertracker / acehud?
[20:44] deacsoft9: I use them
[20:45] deacsoft9: it's a godsend when it comes to finding awesome tables
[20:45] ottsville7: I do not us pt/hud (YET)
[20:45] Fencron3: Do you guys primarily play limit or NL?
[20:45] ottsville7: I play limit..you?
[20:45] deacsoft9: i used to play limit mainly but now play a lot of NL
[20:45] deacsoft9: but i like to mix it up
[20:46] Fencron3: I never really play limit hold'em personally
[20:46] ottsville7: I've been playiong some O/9 to mix it up
[20:46] Fencron3: Yea I mix it up with random games
[20:46] ottsville7: /8
[20:46] Fencron3: crazy pineapple, lowball, royal hold'em, omaha
[20:46] Fencron3: etc
[20:46] ottsville7: you play live mostly?
[20:46] Fencron3: Nah, online
[20:46] Fencron3: I will be playing more live soon though
[20:47] ottsville7: what do you look for in a game?
[20:47] Fencron3: well, first off, I have been playing mainly at UB lately
[20:47] Fencron3: because my other sites either went to crap or have bad game selection
[20:47] Fencron3: on UB I am able to datamine very easily
[20:48] Fencron3: and also buddylist any bad players I come across
[20:48] ottsville7: how are the games at UB?
[20:48] Fencron3: Well, they arent exactly the best on average, but I am very good about game selection on my own
[20:48] Fencron3: I have a ton of people on my buddylist
[20:48] Fencron3: and I constantly datamine
[20:49] Fencron3: before I sit at a table, I will prefetch at least 100 hands on the table
[20:49] Fencron3: and see how everyone has been playing
[20:49] ottsville7: I buddy list at PP
[20:49] deacsoft9: is the game selection section in POP something that helped you at all?
[20:49] Fencron3: Well, for me I don't really mind any game with bad players
[20:49] Fencron3: regardless of type
[20:49] Fencron3: calling stations, ultra aggressors, fish are all fine with me
[20:49] ottsville7: not really...I was working on it to begin with
[20:50] deacsoft9: are there any concepts from it that you guys are going to try appling?
[20:50] ottsville7: it has helped me to get away from bad games though
[20:50] ottsville7: It didn't really have all that much info I thought?
20:51] Fencron3: Reraising to isolate
[20:51] Fencron3: thats a pretty good one
[20:51] ottsville7: yes
[20:51] Fencron3: applies to NL as well
[20:51] Fencron3: even more so I think
[20:51] Fencron3: although it can get pricey
[20:51] ottsville7: That's more of a player attack then game selection
[20:52] Fencron3: yea
[20:52] deacsoft9: we skipped the player rating section
[20:53] deacsoft9: that's something i'm surely going to use in my live games
[20:53] Fencron3: Well, I haven't been at a live table that wasn't juicy
[20:54] ottsville7: 'I read it but didn't create benchmarks as most of my play is online
[20:54] Fencron3: I mean on-line you instantly know how a player plays
[20:54] deacsoft9: my last time in vegas i couldn't find a game that wasn't tooo juicy
[20:54] Fencron3: or can anyway with the software
[20:54] deacsoft9: being the only person at the table with a clue was no fun at all
[20:55] Fencron3: whys that?
[20:55] deacsoft9: suck out city
[20:55] Fencron3: Are you really complaining that the game was TOO good? /images/graemlins/smile.gif
[20:55] ottsville7: lol
[20:55] deacsoft9: it was so good it was bad
[20:56] deacsoft9: the only way to win was with the nut
[20:56] deacsoft9: folp a set against 6-7-8 opponents.... someone was going to suck out
[20:57] deacsoft9: i lost that day and would have loved to use better selection for those games
[20:57] Fencron3: This was limit though?
[20:57] deacsoft9: yeah
[20:57] ottsville7: the concept of rating players is a good one and I think we all do it unconsciously to soem extent
[20:58] Fencron3: Well yea, you rate players pretty quickly in your head
[20:58] Fencron3: and label them
[20:58] ottsville7: I found that a "system" for it helps...
[20:58] ottsville7: the number thing is good, but it's just as easy to use the terms
[20:59] ottsville7: is it something you think you will use?
[21:00] Fencron3: Labeling players?
[21:00] deacsoft9: i plan on playing in a lot of live tourneys in the near future(including some WSOP events) and really want to improve in that area
[21:00] ottsville7: yes
[21:00] deacsoft9: i've always done it but really half-[censored] it
[21:00] ottsville7: I've noticed tendencies
[21:00] ottsville7: but never said he is x,y
[21:01] Fencron3: Well, yea you always do it but I think the book gives you some good advice as to labeling besides how they are actually playing
[21:01] Fencron3: like their appearance, how they present themselves and how they act
[21:01] deacsoft9: true
[21:01] ottsville7: yes it does...like "when drunk plays..."
[21:01] Fencron3: how they keep their chips, how they talk
[21:01] ottsville7: appearance too...never thought about that stuff
[21:01] deacsoft9: i was sitting here reading that i and i was just like ....
[21:02] deacsoft9: "yeah i've seen someone do that... and that.... and this...."
[21:02] Fencron3: The Chris Moneymaker obnoxious lookalike with the sunglasses that is constantly berating other players likely overplays hands such as top pair
[21:02] Fencron3: and overpairs
[21:03] deacsoft9: god it's so good to have one of those guys in the game if he isn't turning players away
[21:03] ottsville7: there was something in the beginning of the book about how someone can't help but play to match their personality
[21:03] deacsoft9: they take all the attention off of me and just leave me to quietly have a great oppertunity to dominate the game
[21:04] Fencron3: Yea
[21:04] ottsville7: let the cards speak so to say...
[21:05] ottsville7: people love trying to beat the jerks too
[21:05] Fencron3: Well, if a donkey sucks out, you are much better off complementing him and just saying "nice hand" than berating him
[21:05] deacsoft9: i want my cards to do nothing more than whisper that their a winner
[21:05] ottsville7: true
[21:05] Fencron3: I dont want the donkey to tighten up because he got yelled at and embarassed by another donkey
[21:05] deacsoft9: i wonder if that's not so bad though at the right table
[21:06] Fencron3: Yea it isnt
[21:06] ottsville7: yes...I've taken to complementing the bad players
[21:06] Fencron3: ego wars at the table = you just need to get in the middle
[21:06] ottsville7: If the calling station is the person who wants to get along, the yelling at him is going to turn him away
[21:06] deacsoft9: i mean lags shrinking up action from fish.
[21:07] deacsoft9: you'd think it would be easier to steal from them
[21:07] deacsoft9: nevermind... there's more to profit from the action. I was just thinking out loud.
[21:08] Fencron3: Look for people with sloppy stacks
[21:08] Fencron3: they dont have time to stack them neatly as they are in every pot splashing around
[21:08] Fencron3: the ones with pretty stacks sit there all day making them pretty while waiting for monsters
[21:08] deacsoft9: :-)
[21:09] deacsoft9: and bigger
[21:09] Fencron3: aye
[21:09] ottsville7: you think that's really so?
[21:09] deacsoft9: more than not
[21:09] deacsoft9: i believe Caro even touches on that in Caro's Book of Poker Tells
[21:09] ottsville7: I've rarely seen people with sloppy stacks at the table... but I haven't played a lot of live
[21:10] ottsville7: going to mess up my stacks now
[21:10] deacsoft9: uneven stacks (ones with no reasoning behind them) are often just the same
[21:11] deacsoft9: many players have to stack them in some way for the sake of room at the table
[21:11] Fencron3: i dont mean like one big pile
[21:11] Fencron3: of sloppyness
[21:11] deacsoft9: lol
[21:11] Fencron3: i mean just careless compared to the rocks at the table
[21:11] deacsoft9: i've seen that too
[21:11] Fencron3: and unorganized
[21:11] Fencron3: just scoop the pot in, stack em up randomly and get in the next pot
[21:11] ottsville7: OK...I''ve seen that
[21:12] Fencron3: Mr. Rock isn't going to be so hasty as with his 15% VPIP hes folding most of the time
[21:12] Fencron3: So he gets to play with his chips
[21:12] ottsville7: yes...
[21:12] deacsoft9: i wonder if chip tricks could also be considered a sign
[21:13] Fencron3: I think so
[21:13] deacsoft9: playing less hands = more time to pratice
[21:13] *** RossWantsToPoker has joined the chat.
[21:13] Fencron3: I'm not sure if it indicates tightness or not
[21:13] Fencron3: But I don't see tourists busting out butterflys
[21:13] Fencron3: or even chip twirls
[21:13] deacsoft9: true
[21:13] ottsville7: yeah...Although I practive while watching tv sometimes
[21:13] deacsoft9: YOU'RE LATE!!!!!!!!!!!!
[21:13] deacsoft9: ;-)
[21:14] RossWantsToPoker: I know, i'm sorry
[21:14] deacsoft9: just kiddin'
[21:14] ottsville7: welcome ross
[21:14] RossWantsToPoker: thank you
[21:14] deacsoft9: we started off with game selection
[21:14] deacsoft9: then went to player ratings
[21:15] RossWantsToPoker: all right
[21:15] deacsoft9: anything you want to mention on those topics?
[21:17] ottsville7: after rating palyers...we get into a little style...
[21:17] RossWantsToPoker: well, i haven't really been able to use game selection too much. most of the ring games i have played have been live with friends.
[21:17] RossWantsToPoker: i play SNGs quite a bit now, and i am not certain how i could implement game selection into that; possibly by time of day/night i play.
[21:17] deacsoft9: true... hard to select a SNG based on players
[21:17] ottsville7: the players who bet when checked to, play early streets tight
[21:17] ottsville7: later streets loose
[21:18] ottsville7: don't sit?
[21:18] ottsville7: just go
[21:18] RossWantsToPoker: lol
[21:18] ottsville7: probably not so likely there
[21:18] ottsville7: you play any ring ross?
[21:20] RossWantsToPoker: not lately...and the only ring games i've played online have been the microlimits. i did use PT and PAHUD when I did play ring though
[21:20] ottsville7: with hud, it's easy to see if someone is tight pf but loose/agg later, but do you notice this stuff live?
[21:20] deacsoft9: that's hard to keep up with
[21:21] ottsville7: I agree...but you've got lots of time
[21:21] Fencron3: Just keep track of how often they follow up their raises with bets
[21:21] deacsoft9: again... something I plan on working towards getting better at
[21:21] Fencron3: and into how many people they are willing to bet
[21:21] Fencron3: Well, this is from an NL perspective
[21:21] ottsville7: how many people is a good point.
[21:21] deacsoft9: those are good tips
[21:21] RossWantsToPoker: most of the people i play with live, i have played with multiple times before...kind of like regulars
[21:22] ottsville7: what about how some players bet aggressively but are conservative with their raises?
[21:22] ottsville7: good for limit too
[21:22] deacsoft9: i love those guys
[21:22] deacsoft9: easy to check raise and draw against and they can be bet into with confidence that they are not going to raise. If they do... consider folding. *thinking* yep... fold (unless the pot justifies a call).
[21:23] ottsville7: these are just factors that I never really thought about
[21:24] RossWantsToPoker: wouldn't you think a lot of that is based on hand reading too?
[21:24] Fencron3: Some players don't cb, they only bet out with a piece of the board. Some players raise a lot, but their reraises are very strong. Keeping track of simple stuff like that can/will save you a lot of money
[21:25] ottsville7: do you think it's better to CR against a player like this?
[21:25] ottsville7: or bet into?
[21:25] deacsoft9: check raise if i want the money in the pot... bet into if i wouldn't mind them folding
[21:25] RossWantsToPoker: i have a hard time betting when i miss the board
[21:26] ottsville7: I've been working on CR's and it amazes me how many people will call the CR, and fold when bet into on the turn
[21:26] deacsoft9: for sure. i see that all day every day
[21:26] RossWantsToPoker: that's a good observation
[21:27] ottsville7: say you've got a pf rs, you are in the BB with A9s...flop comes 9d 6h, 3c
[21:27] ottsville7: CR and bet out
[21:27] deacsoft9: i'll often bet to protect but will sometimes check raise it. depends on the opponent
[21:28] ottsville7: yes..it does...
[21:28] ottsville7: but it amazes me how many times the pf rsr will fold to that
[21:28] deacsoft9: in the 6-max games i'll often CR and bet it to the house if unraised
[21:29] ottsville7: I can see that in 6max..
[21:29] ottsville7: but i'm not all too experienced there
[21:29] deacsoft9: it's amazing the crap that people show down
[21:29] ottsville7: that's true...
[21:29] ottsville7: I'm guilty of that too though
[21:29] deacsoft9: :-)
[21:30] ottsville7: he can't possibly be playing the one hand that beats me...even thoguht he capped the turn and led out
[21:32] deacsoft9: so everyone have a good grip on what makes a LAP (Loose-Aggressive Player) and how to play them?
[21:33] ottsville7: I think so...he experiences a loack of conrtol...exploit it
[21:33] RossWantsToPoker: i think/hope so
[21:33] Fencron3: bet bet bet
[21:33] RossWantsToPoker: LAP is a completely different ball game for me
[21:33] ottsville7: I do like the signals listed about them
[21:33] deacsoft9: yeah... some quality info there
[21:34] ottsville7: flamboyant...loud, posting , large buy in
[21:34] ottsville7: I like how he says to watch how opther players react to the new player in live games
[21:35] Fencron3: thats not as big of a factor in lower buy-in games though
[21:35] Fencron3: as most people aren't familiar with each other
[21:35] deacsoft9: i think you could also benefit a lot from watching how/if the other players adjust to a LAG
[21:35] ottsville7: I played some low limit at a casino
[21:35] ottsville7: A lot of the players knew each other, especially during the day
[21:36] RossWantsToPoker: I tried going to a casino last Friday
[21:36] ottsville7: how'd it go?
[21:37] deacsoft9: not 21 and wouldn't let him in
[21:37] deacsoft9: hehehe
[21:37] ottsville7: lol
[21:38] *** TomBrooklyn has joined the chat.
[21:38] RossWantsToPoker: It didn't...my friend and i went pretty late....almost 11pm or so, and it's 90 minutes away...and we were stuck in traffic for almost an hour at a dead stop
[21:38] RossWantsToPoker: ...by that time we decided to just turn around since the card room closed in a couple of hours
[21:39] deacsoft9: bummer
[21:39] deacsoft9: What up, Tom?
[21:39] Fencron3: At one of the tables I am on right now, one of the craziest maniacs I have ever ran into is telling this guy how he plays poker for a living
[21:39] Fencron3: Comedic gold
[21:39] deacsoft9: what site?
[21:39] Fencron3: UB
[21:40] deacsoft9: what table?
[21:40] Fencron3: Oshawa
[21:41] deacsoft9: what game?
[21:41] Fencron3: 1-2 NL 6-max
[21:42] deacsoft9: I'm now watching
[21:40] TomBrooklyn: Hi, just got this thing working
[21:40] RossWantsToPoker: what is the funniest thing you've heard?
[21:42] Fencron3: Heya tom
[21:43] deacsoft9: so Tom... we pretty much covered this weeks reading
[21:43] deacsoft9: anything you wanted to discuss or bring up?
[21:43] TomBrooklyn: Well, not particularly. I just got in so I haven't got my thoughts together yet
[21:42] ottsville7: so do you all liek playing against the lags and maniacs?
[21:44] deacsoft9: i like it
[21:44] deacsoft9: very profitable
[21:44] Fencron3: otts, generally yes
[21:44] ottsville7: we all know how profitable the y can?
[21:44] Fencron3: having good position on them is huge
[21:44] ottsville7: yes
[21:45] RossWantsToPoker: i don't, mainly because i can never tell when one of them has a hand
[21:45] Fencron3: Ross, they generally have some kind of pattern
[21:45] deacsoft9: just need to keep in mind that your swings are going to be larger than normal
[21:45] Fencron3: like this maniac at my table right now
[21:45] Fencron3: smaller value bets = big hand, insta bet pot = bluff, or it has been most of the time
[21:45] Fencron3: he has gotten picked off many times
[21:46] RossWantsToPoker: all right, thanks
[21:45] TomBrooklyn: What was tonights topic again? Parts 3 and 4?
[21:45] ottsville7: pg 62 to 154
[21:46] deacsoft9: rating players, game selection, and LAPs
[21:46] Fencron3: I wouldn't know from a limit perspective though
[21:46] Fencron3: as you cant go on bet size
[21:47] Fencron3: and they are often in there with ANYTHING in limit
[21:47] RossWantsToPoker: well, i don't normally play limit
[21:48] TomBrooklyn: For whats it's worth, I was thinking you were trying to cover too much each week.
[21:48] Fencron3: you catch that hand deac?
[21:48] Fencron3: /images/graemlins/smile.gif
[21:48] deacsoft9: buh
[21:48] deacsoft9: just missed it
[21:48] deacsoft9: was copying the chat
[21:48] Fencron3: hit hand history
[21:49] deacsoft9: nh
[21:48] ottsville7: that's my fault...we should have covered a little more last week and lesss this week
[21:49] RossWantsToPoker: i apologize again for being very late
[21:49] deacsoft9: no prob
[21:49] TomBrooklyn: What was the hottest topic tonight?
[21:50] ottsville7: table selection
[21:50] TomBrooklyn: good topic.
[21:50] ottsville7: rating players a bit too.
[21:50] deacsoft9: i'd have to say identifing player types
[21:50] ottsville7: which we all do, but to have some quantifiable method is good
[21:51] RossWantsToPoker: i have a question...if you find a table you like and then an oppotent sits down that you consider good/solid or that you want to avoid, will you switch tables?
[21:51] RossWantsToPoker: it seems like to me if you switched, then you would be constantly switching
[21:51] Fencron3: it depends on the other players
[21:51] ottsville7: not necessarily
[21:52] ottsville7: what about the rest of the table
[21:52] TomBrooklyn: I wouldn't worry about one fearsome player.
[21:52] Fencron3: I am fairly confident in my game, but if there is a complete maniac killing me to my left
[21:52] deacsoft9: i like another decent player or 2
[21:52] Fencron3: I wouldn't mind getting a different seat
[21:52] ottsville7: you cna just avoid playing him
[21:52] TomBrooklyn: I like maniacs usually
[21:52] Fencron3: I do too
[21:52] Fencron3: to my right
[21:52] deacsoft9: they're frustrating but great for the game
[21:52] Fencron3: I mean id rather be at a table with one than not, but having position against them is HUGE
[21:53] TomBrooklyn: I've had a couple of maniacs on my left lately and I killed them anyway.
[21:53] deacsoft9: for sure
[21:53] RossWantsToPoker: okay, thanks for the information
[21:53] deacsoft9: can beat them on either side if playing them correctly but position is surely the more profitable way
[21:54] RossWantsToPoker: will you change seats, not go to another table, but a different seat to get a better position?
[21:54] Fencron3: yes
[21:54] Fencron3: definatly
[21:54] ottsville7: yes
[21:54] deacsoft9: for sure
[21:54] TomBrooklyn: One prob w/ maniacs I found is after you crush them 2-3 times they tend to slow down agaisnt you.
[21:54] deacsoft9: they seem not to for too long though
[21:54] deacsoft9: they have to feed their monkey ... so to speak
[21:55] TomBrooklyn: Yeah, they can't help themselves for too long
[21:55] ottsville7: true
[21:55] RossWantsToPoker: i wonder what opponents think when a player changes seats once they sit down
[21:55] RossWantsToPoker: if that makes sense
[21:55] ottsville7: I think that they know what they are doing
[21:55] TomBrooklyn: I was switching skins the other night to come to table w/ different screen names because maniac was there and he started respecting my three bets. lol
[21:56] ottsville7: and I watch out for them
[21:56] deacsoft9: the good ones wish they had and the fish don't care to think about it or think you're looking for a lucky seat
[21:56] RossWantsToPoker: good point
[21:56] ottsville7: yes true
[21:57] TomBrooklyn: I tried saying something when I switched seats, but found that had bad effect. Better to just switch and say nothing.
[21:57] ottsville7: don't draw attention...
[21:57] RossWantsToPoker: what did you say? if you don't mind me asking
[21:58] TomBrooklyn: something like "oh I want a lucky seat", or I got disconnected
[21:58] RossWantsToPoker: oh okay
[21:59] TomBrooklyn: if I was coming to right of a TAG and said something, they left a couple of times. They were probably too smart. So now I say nothing.
[21:59] deacsoft9: i like to follow the chat but rarely say anything... except maybe "ty" when someone says nh
[22:00] ottsville7: I rarely chat...unless I'm one tabling and bored
[22:00] ottsville7: I will say "nh" though
[22:00] deacsoft9: if i want to socialize i'll go play live
[22:01] deacsoft9: a friend of mine has had some very profitable sessions while playing like a champ and chatting like the village idiot
[22:01] deacsoft9: representing the LAG image via chat
[22:01] ottsville7: good idea...may have to try that
[22:02] ottsville7: I can do village idiot
[22:02] deacsoft9: lol
[22:02] deacsoft9: my games are usually loose enough to not have to worry about it
[22:03] RossWantsToPoker: how do you deal with what people say, whether it be online or live regarding to what cards they say they had from a previous hand or if in a current hand and they something indicating a call
[22:03] ottsville7: I usually ignore it...
[22:03] ottsville7: poker players lie
[22:03] deacsoft9: u mean table talk durring a hand?
[22:04] ottsville7: or after
[22:04] deacsoft9: if someone table talks durring a hand i generally ask them nicely to not do it again
[22:05] deacsoft9: if they give me any crap for asking them to stop or if they don't stop, i have party take away their chat abilities
[22:05] deacsoft9: if they're just talking about a previous hand i'd listen, remember, and play on
[22:06] deacsoft9: i try to let their play tell me what they have/had
[22:06] ottsville7: I don't put too much weight on what people say...
[22:06] deacsoft9: and we don't lie.... we bluff /images/graemlins/smile.gif
[22:06] RossWantsToPoker: oh wow okay
[22:06] ottsville7: you can get lots of info by asking though
[22:06] RossWantsToPoker: yeah, i try not to put much weight on it
[22:07] ottsville7: hand histories don't lie
[22:07] RossWantsToPoker: but it's hard for me not to consider what they are saying
[22:07] deacsoft9: i think you should surely consider it
[22:07] ottsville7: consider it...but it depends on the player
[22:08] deacsoft9: but consider why they're saying it as well as what they're saying
[22:08] TomBrooklyn: What are the ethics of lying at a poker table?
[22:08] ottsville7: LOL
[22:08] TomBrooklyn: I think it's ethical to say almost anything
[22:08] deacsoft9: yeah... i don't think there are any limits there
[22:08] TomBrooklyn: Like saying "I made the flush"
[22:09] TomBrooklyn: whether you did or didn't
[22:09] deacsoft9: i'll tell them whatever they want to hear so long as they think they made the right fold
[22:09] ottsville7: sure...during a hand you're not playing isn't cool

[Bigblindal]

Hi All
Maybe I should of stayed home and finished reading POP. I feel I played well but didn't come out a winner last night in my first try at 1-2 NLH.
I did however use the things I learn in POP. I tryed to size up the players.
I even did something that told me that I must be picking up on the ideas in the book.
Here is what happen. I been playing for about 2 hours. I am not seeing any starting hands. So I get pockets Kings! I rease before the flop, just eight bucks I think I want a couple callers. The flop comes 6 4 2 rainbow. It's checked to me I bet $15.00 I get two callers. The turn is a 10, I bet $15.00 I get one caller, now its heads up, the river is 8 I check the other player bets 15 and here is the kick! My brain screams he got a set!!!! Fold!!! but what do I do...I call! Yes Sir he had a set of 6's.
The River of Denial!!!
I need to stop and look left and replayed the bets in my head, it would of saved me at least 2 bets I think.
Looking forward to more comments on the book.

BBA

[Bigblindal]

Dr. Al
Help!
LOL. I hope this post won't die! I have yet to finish the book, but will in short order.
I did how ever try my hand at the cardroom last night and did try to use the things I read in PoP.
Sorry to say I left my money on the table.
I did how ever learned a few things, and have a few question about what happen.
I was playing at a 3/6 table.
I post the big blind first hand and hit top two pair. The guy to my left called me all the way to the river and hit a straight. Oh well.
So I try not to steam up,and focus on the players and the cards.
I do well, I put 4 LPP and 2 TAP 2 lAP and me.
I played for about 3 hours and all most double up. I tell myself it's time to go. The LLP player leave and I not sure of the new players.
But do I leave no I stay I get sloppy and dump my money!
DENIAL!!!!
The game changed I saw that, but didn't take my own advice!
I sure hope I learned me lession.
How do I avoid this from happening again?
Looking forward to comments

BBA

[ottsville]

Live chat again tonight(wed) at 9:30 pm eastern. Aol IM me around 9:20 if you're interested....we'll be covering pages 155-244, loose-passive and tight-passive players.

[ottsville]

My AIm id is ottsville7

[deacsoft]

My apologies guys but I will not be able to participate in the discussion/chat tonight. I have a commitment that must be met. Feel free to post any questions or comments for me here in this thread and I'll address them as soon as I have an oppertunity.

Cheers,

deacsoft

[deacsoft]

My apologies again to all. I dropped the ball last night. ottsville had asked me to arrange the sudy group last night because he wasn't going to be available. The fact that yesterday was Wednesday slipped right past me. The discussion should have been on the remainder of the book. If anyone would like to share thoughs, questions, or concerns I'll be available all night (for the most part) and will continue to check in on this thread for the next few days. I'll try to address anything posted in a timely manner.

Hope you've all enjoyed the book. I think POP is a great read and well worth the time and minor expense. It again (my second read) has taught me a lot about myself and my opponents. I highly recommend this book to anyone who plays poker at any level or for any reason.