Ratholing and intra-hand buyins in the Foxwoods $2/4

[AKQJ10]

I happened to comment that a player to my right taking cash off the table was breaking the rules and probably would be asked to return it. The reaction from some others at the table -- and these were the LAG types that were capping every third hand on most betting rounds, so I didn't want to piss them off -- seemed to indicate that I was a nit for pointing this out. I truthfully stated that I didn't really care -- I don't, it's no skin off my nose if someone takes money off the table at limit hold 'em -- but they seemed to feel that I must really care to "make such a big deal about it." Of course it would have been helpful to just have the dealer state that I was correct, but it's Foxwoods so it's even odds the dealer literally didn't know ratholing was against the rules.

At any rate, I'm not happy with my emerging reputation as a nit in such a casual game, so I'm considering whether I should just shut my mouth in future situations.

In other Foxwoods drama, another dealer let a guy buy in by taking money out of his wallet during the hand. She stopped action then tried to convince me that the hand hadn't really started, despite the fact that most of us happened to have playing cards in front of us, two each, along with some people who'd placed little yellow disks with pictures of a fox on the felt in front of them. But the hand hadn't really started, mind you. The guy buying back in was a huge fish (capping the river with a 5-high one-card flush in one instance) so I had no desire to make a huge scene, but I find it hard to catch myself. I made the mistake of blurting out "This dealer doesn't know how to control the game," with a floor standing right behind her. I wish I hadn't done that in a way that looked like I was trying to embarrass her -- to his credit the floor stood up for her at the table but then, when I found him to apologize, he confirmed that this was a valid training issue for me to bring up in private.

At any rate, I know it must be challenging to train that many dealers but I was surprised that no one else at the table even seemed to find these issues noteworthy in a low-limit game.

[UATrewqaz]

NIT when +EV

Don't be when - EV

Use ur judgement for the two.

[DrewOnTilt]

One thing that I can't stand is a damn table cop. You could not possibly have been negatively affected in any way by either of these two occurrences. Why say anything at all? It only serves to annoy the rest of the table.

This makes me think of all the times that I've attempted to rathole a few chips after having built up a huge stack at a live limit game, only to have some nit say, "Sir, you aren't allowed to take money off the table."

If something doesn't negatively affect you, give another player an unfair advantage, or otherwise affect the integrity of the game, then just keep quiet.

[cardcounter0]

Situation #1 - Crazy LAG game capping every third hand on most betting rounds. NIT sees some player rat hole a few chips and speaks up. NIT is put off when dealer doesn't affirm his nittyness.

Situation #2 - NIT objects when the biggest fish at the table tries to buy in for more chips before the flop. NIT is probably afraid fish will have enough money to cap the river with a 5-high one-card flush again.

If I missed anything, I am sure a NIT will be quick to point it out.

[jetsg4]

[ QUOTE ]
If something doesn't negatively affect you, give another player an unfair advantage, or otherwise affect the integrity of the game, then just keep quiet.

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, lets see... unfair advantage/game integrity.... cards are out, action on the hand, I REBUY.

just keep it quiet.... ANY rule violation that the dealer doesnt point out, SHOULD be pointed out by the players. having rules in place that are only enforced when it is to someones advantage is destroying the INTEGRITY of the game

ahh, it's all clear now. we have rules for a game involving MONEY, but it is correct/acceptable to have SELECTIVE ENFORCEMENT of these rules?? i hope not, and i would have agreed with both objections made @ the table. i don't care how much -/+EV it is. it's a rule and should be treated as such in EVERY situation that violates it, THATS WHAT MAKES IT A RULE.

[cardcounter0]

Another seat at the NIT table filled.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Situation one, you are definitely being a nit. If he put chips in his pocket, that's one thing, but taking cash off the table between hands is just not that big a deal.

Situation two, I might say something if I were certain the guy made no move to ask to buy chips before the first card came out, but even that depends on my mood. In most cash game situations, my preferred table image is invisible.

[ScottieK]

Sure, don't be a nit...that's why players break the rules and permissive dealers don't say anything. Dealers should control the game, regardless of what the players want. Wonder how non-nitty these guys would be if a player tried to rebuy during a hand when he just caught his weak kicker. Or conveniently pulled out the four greens he pocketed earlier. But if he's on a draw, he's "all in." That is bulls%$%.

Had a hand in KC, where the BB was supposedly "all in" when he posted. He looked at his cards, liked what he saw, then pulled out his wallet. The dealer stopped action while the guy got up to get chips (they don't have chip runners at Ameristar.) Took about five-six minutes. Nice freeroll.

If you want to avoid nittiness at the table, suggest you complain to the floor every chance you get. Lucky for me, there's other area cardrooms to play at.

ScottieK

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
ahh, it's all clear now. we have rules for a game involving MONEY, but it is correct/acceptable to have SELECTIVE ENFORCEMENT of these rules?? i hope not, and i would have agreed with both objections made @ the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

You people are forgetting two important things here: table image and overall player mood. When nits do their thing and nit-pick about the smallest table quirks, it tends to annoy the other players and detracts from the overall sociability of the game.

[ QUOTE ]
i don't care how much -/+EV it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

You SHOULD care, if you like to make money at poker.

Go ahead and continue to be a table cop if you want, but do it at a table other than mine. The effect is no different than that of an idiot who verbally abuses a bad player. It drives the fish away because the game is no longer "fun" when such people are present.

[Nut4Dawgs]

If you’re not playing Poker by The Rules, you’re not playing Poker.

The Rules are The Rules for good reasons. Not because some Nit decided, “Hey, let’s try it this way!” Every single one of them has been agreed to by everyone playing the game.

The Rules protect everyone. I’ve got the same rights at the table as Brunson.

When I go to a poker room in Lake Charles, Tunica, KC, Vegas or East Outhouse, Oklahoma, and I sit at the table I know what to expect. No surprises. OK, some local “special rules” may be in play but I asked at the desk so those won’t cause a problem. If I thought they would, I’d leave.

If a dealer, floor person or the table has decided not to play by The Rules I have to make a decision. I can Check (go along), Raise (a point of order/complain), or Fold (leave).

Personally, I like The Rules.

[Riverman]

Chill out

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

One thing that I can't stand is a damn table cop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Man, ratholing burns me up. I'll take a table cop any day over a ratholing scumbag.

[ QUOTE ]

This makes me think of all the times that I've attempted to rathole a few chips after having built up a huge stack at a live limit game, only to have some nit say, "Sir, you aren't allowed to take money off the table."

If something doesn't negatively affect you, give another player an unfair advantage, or otherwise affect the integrity of the game, then just keep quiet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ratholing does negatively affect me and the game. You taking money off the table means I can't win it. Ratholing should always be mentioned, in my opinion. At the very least it's a service to the knucklehead so that he doesn't try it in a game where he gets more than a gentle correction.

How can someone who persumably has some experience condone ratholing?

Regards,

T

[dankhank]

[ QUOTE ]


How can someone who persumably has some experience condone ratholing?


[/ QUOTE ]

well we are talking about a limit game here, where theoretically, not having enough chips can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on the hand. personally i find it a hassle to have bills as part of my chip stack. i like my stack not to take up too much space and sometimes your arm brushes up against the bills and it's annoying. if i don't have enough chips on the table and don't want to bother the dealer to make change atm, then i will put some bills out. or if i sell chips to another player to speed up the game i will have some bills out. however i would prefer they be in my pocket.

my own strategy to avoid the rathole cops, devised while reading this thread, is to pick your bills up when you go to the bathroom or whatever, and then forget to put them back down.

[ScottieK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


How can someone who persumably has some experience condone ratholing?


[/ QUOTE ]

well we are talking about a limit game here, where theoretically, not having enough chips can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on the hand. personally i find it a hassle to have bills as part of my chip stack. i like my stack not to take up too much space and sometimes your arm brushes up against the bills and it's annoying. if i don't have enough chips on the table and don't want to bother the dealer to make change atm, then i will put some bills out. or if i sell chips to another player to speed up the game i will have some bills out. however i would prefer they be in my pocket.

my own strategy to avoid the rathole cops, devised while reading this thread, is to pick your bills up when you go to the bathroom or whatever, and then forget to put them back down.

[/ QUOTE ]

#1 - cash doesn't play on any LL table I've been on. Bills may play on high limit tables or on LL tables you play on.

#2 - dealers where I play only make change if you're buying in for $20 or $40. If it's more, they call the chip runners.

#3 - if you have too many chips, color up.

#4 - if you sell chips to another player, the dealer should make you get chips for the money.

ScottieK

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

#1 - at Foxwoods, cash plays on all tables
#2 - at Foxwoods, they sell chips if they have enough in the tray. No chip runners, you go to the cage.
#3 - Good idea
#4 - again, since cash plays, just leave it on the table.

[ZenMusician]

<------- little yellow disks with pictures of a fox

-ZEN

[AKQJ10]

Thanks for the repies, even those accusing me of being a nit. I implicitly asked for feedback, and I value it even when I disagree.

It's certainly possible that just pointing out simple rules is -EV, and I'll probably consciously stop doing it. I don't bring the rules up with the intention of playing table cop; I just happen to think, "Hmmm, maybe this person doesn't know such-and-such is a rule, and maybe it would be helpful to let them know." Looking at in in retrospect I see how unlikely that scenario is to develop, but at the table that's really the only thing that crosses my mind before I open my mouth.

Now, that said, I've learned not to call most preflop reraises with 99 in short-stack NLHE, and I've learned not to ever try explaining to a low-limit table that IWTSTH is intended only to fight collusion. So I'm sure I can learn not to comment about ratholing if I make a conscious effort. I'd rather be working on other poker skills, but such is life.

In a big-picture sense I'm disappointed that the sum of the dealer plus the other eight players aren't invested enough in keeping the game running by the rules to back me up on these issues, but it's hardly a huge injustice or even angle shoot. Given the players involved I'm pretty sure their ratholing was an innocent mistake. When I make innocent mistakes in a new environment (such as playing at a casino for the first time) I appreciate it when people correct me, but that's far from universal.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Had a hand in KC, where the BB was supposedly "all in" when he posted. He looked at his cards, liked what he saw, then pulled out his wallet. The dealer stopped action while the guy got up to get chips (they don't have chip runners at Ameristar.) Took about five-six minutes. Nice freeroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty outrageous. Unlike my situation, it's a pretty blatant angle shoot, or at best an unintentional situation highly favorable to the big blind. The dealer and floor that allow that need to be trained to do their job

[ QUOTE ]
...Lucky for me, there's other area cardrooms to play at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. Mohegan's supposed to be reopening soon, so maybe then I can say the same.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Mohegan's supposed to be reopening soon, so maybe then I can say the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, Mohegan recently came out as saying there was no truth to the rumor. They have no intentions of opening another poker room.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[ScottieK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Had a hand in KC, where the BB was supposedly "all in" when he posted. He looked at his cards, liked what he saw, then pulled out his wallet. The dealer stopped action while the guy got up to get chips (they don't have chip runners at Ameristar.) Took about five-six minutes. Nice freeroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty outrageous. Unlike my situation, it's a pretty blatant angle shoot, or at best an unintentional situation highly favorable to the big blind. The dealer and floor that allow that need to be trained to do their job

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I don't expect much from their dealers, but the floor guys at Ameristar are a bunch of clowns. I've waited for ten minutes just to get on the list, then half an hour to get an open seat, while the floor guys are chatting with dealers, picking up trash, or just plain not around. Dealers screaming their heads off "seat open, table nine!" to no avail. Floor guys are in charge of the list, which is part of the problem I guess. Fortunately, I don't have to travel to KC any more.

ScottieK

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
At any rate, I'm not happy with my emerging reputation as a nit in such a casual game

[/ QUOTE ]

It's 2-4, not the world poker tour.

Who gives a...

[ QUOTE ]
I was surprised that no one else at the table even seemed to find these issues noteworthy in a low-limit game.

[/ QUOTE ]

What limit was this again? 2-4?

It's TWO-FOUR, NOT THE WORLD POKER TOUR.

Sup Bro, you know you're cool in my book, but I think I need to kick you in the nuts for this post. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

al

p.s. next time you're here, I know the DADDY sushi joint, and I still got the same piece of chit truck /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope, Mohegan recently came out as saying there was no truth to the rumor. They have no intentions of opening another poker room.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Do you have a source document?

The last guy who assured me the opening would be coming soon (and that Mohegan needed it to be a 5-star casino-resort) claimed to be a Mohegan table games dealer. But of course I could claim to be the King of Spain or something. And of course these rumors have been going on for years so who knows.

[ghettorat]

You're a NIT. I can't believe you are complaining about this stuff in a $2/4 no fold'em hold'em game. People at 2/4 are learning and/or there to give you $100. Should the rules of the game be explained to them, definitely but not in the way you make it sound here.

[AKQJ10]

I don't know how I could be any clearer: unless I make a conscious effort to NOT explain the rules, I'm going to explain them in spite of myself. Having seen that no one else gave a damn about ratholing (although other people at other $2/4 tables have screamed bloody murder when I've taken chips to the cage with the intent of bringing them back to the table, go figure), I'll probably make an effort not to say anything. But it will require an effort.

If needing that conscious effort makes me a nit, then I'm a nit; it's not anything I can change.

[Skipbidder]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that I can't stand is a damn table cop. You could not possibly have been negatively affected in any way by either of these two occurrences. Why say anything at all? It only serves to annoy the rest of the table.

This makes me think of all the times that I've attempted to rathole a few chips after having built up a huge stack at a live limit game, only to have some nit say, "Sir, you aren't allowed to take money off the table."

If something doesn't negatively affect you, give another player an unfair advantage, or otherwise affect the integrity of the game, then just keep quiet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you ratholing? Apparently you do it often.
Poker is mostly a zero-sum game. (Actually a less than zero-sum game, because of the rake.) If you are gaining a benefit from ratholing, then I am probably sustaining a loss. If it doesn't benefit you, then why the hell are you doing it? It is straightforwardly against the rules. Why do you think that you should be permitted to do something that is so clearly prohibited? Why is someone who points this out suddenly a bad guy? You are the one who is breaking the rules.

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how I could be any clearer: unless I make a conscious effort to NOT explain the rules, I'm going to explain them in spite of myself. Having seen that no one else gave a damn about ratholing (although other people at other $2/4 tables have screamed bloody murder when I've taken chips to the cage with the intent of bringing them back to the table, go figure), I'll probably make an effort not to say anything. But it will require an effort.

If needing that conscious effort makes me a nit, then I'm a nit; it's not anything I can change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that anyone means to imply that you shouldn't EVER say anything about chip ratholing. If someone constantly ratholes chips, tries to rathole chips at a NL game, or would be left short-stacked and at risk of getting unfair allin protection by said ratholing, then by all means speak up. I have spoken up about chip ratholing on several such occasions.

What I DO mean is that you shouldn't raise a fuss if someone has built up a 40BB stack at a limit game and attempts to pocket a small number of them. The only reason that I ever rathole chips is to simply free up some space in front of me.

I can recall a half dozen times when I have moved a small part of a monster stack off the table at a limit game, only to have someone whine about it. Each time, the whiner was the type of player who elicits a sigh of relief from the rest of the table when he finally quits the game. One such nit even elicited a series of moans and groans from the game regulars when he first locked up his seat ("oh NO, here comes that jerk again," everyone said). Do you think that this is a coincidence?? I don't.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason that I ever rathole chips is to simply free up some space in front of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could accomplish this within the rules by coloring up some of your chips.

[Kyo Souma II]

I had a player raise me from his pocket on the end in this game once. The dealer let it stand even though the entire table insisted that the money was not on the table at the start of the hand. I paid off his runner runner ass boat with the flopped nut flush and bitched like a noob for a while.

If I see a guy throwing some chips on the felt as the cards are being dealt, I wouldn't really raise any sort of concern about it, tho.. It really has no bearing on the hand in play, unless he has 2bb left, looks down at his hole cards, and then reloads.

[Abbaddabba]

I wouldnt say anything unless it's clearly affecting me.

Chances are these people arent competent enough to exploit taking money off the table (or out of their pocket) to their advantage. And if a situation comes up where it is to their advantage, then you can call the floor.

If someone pulls money out after you flop the nut flush, don't complain that they drew out. If you had a problem with him pulling the money out, say something as he's doing it.

It's a much bigger issue in NL. There, i would be a nit about those sorts of things.