Tipping policy: when to stop

[goofball]

So, I experienced something new in the 15/30 at Wynn this evening. I stood up to walk around and stretch my legs, after folding UTG. I took 3 chips off my stack and asked the dealer to deal me in, he said "sure thing." I came back and he had dealt about 4 cards and had not dealt me in, I quickly spoke up but he said it was too late. I bought the button next hand and was back in the game.

Now, when I'm playing 15/30 and up I tip $1/pot almost universally. If the dealer is bad I try to skip but I very rarely do. It's become a habit. (when i'm playing 4/8 or 2/4 there are very different rules).

So I decided that I was going to stop tipping this guy for a the rest of the down. He was at best careless and cost me a hand, then not even slightly interested in rectifying it.

Normally I don't think this would be a problem. I'd win my 1 or 2 pots during his dealer down, not tip him, and it'd be over. It wasn't to be that easy though. I went on to win about 6 pots during his deal. Now of course a dealers tip shouldn't be based on how much I win, but still, as he kept pushing me pot after pot, and I kept not sliding him a buck, I started to feel like a dick.

[cpitt398]

I've decided to not tip a dealer before after something similar or worse. This rarely happens, but if it does it is usually not that big of a deal b/c it is usually only a dollar or two. The dealer may not even notice.

Ive never went on a run after I've decided not to tip. I would probably feel bad and start tipping again, but I commend you for holding your ground. He definitly got the picture.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
as he kept pushing me pot after pot, and I kept not sliding him a buck, I started to feel like a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite getting yourself worked-up into a nitrage--you could be thankful that your ability for self-analysis was still intact.

[pvn]

WHat are you looking for here? Tip if you want to, don't tip if you don't want to. If stiffing the dealer makes you feel like a dick, maybe you should tip the guy. Nobody is going to report you to the Bureau of Ideologically Pure Tipping Procedures.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Now of course a dealers tip shouldn't be based on how much I win, but still, as he kept pushing me pot after pot, and I kept not sliding him a buck, I started to feel like a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you were certainly acting like a dick. Next time walk a little faster and you won't have this problem. Tipping is, of course, optional but to stiff a dealer repeatedly over such a super-nit issue is just dumb.

I'm guessing you'd also get pissed off if the game were held up 10 or 20 deconds because the dealer dealt in a walker and you had to wait for him to get back in his seat.

SpaceAce

[*TT*]

I don't like goofball's actions here, but what I dislike more are those of you who responded to this thread, saying its ok. If you don't like the dealer, and don't plan to tip, then don't play. Take a break, walk away, or just sit in your chair and mope... but if you don't plan on paying your share of the dealer's wages (tips are part of wages in the mind of the IRS, the dealer's kid's, the dealer's 85 year old mom who is relying on this money to pay for her hospital bills)then stay out of the game until the next orbit.

Dealers make mistakes just like we all do, they are human. To not tip them when they push you a pot is subhuman. Lets all try to rise above.... tip your dealers. Always.

PS: Since you had a conscience, I think Al Capone won't kick you in the nutz this time /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Bulldog]

I disagree. I would've done exactly what the OP did. It wasn't that the dealer just made "a mistake", it was the fact that he didn't want to go to the tiniest bit of trouble to fix it.

Tips aren't required, anywhere, ever. They are what you give a service employee for service. I'll give a standard tip for any acceptable service, good tips for service that exceeds expectations, and little or no tip for poor service. The OP got poor service, and reacted appropriately, IMHO.

[hoopsie44]

[ QUOTE ]
I've decided to not tip a dealer before after something similar or worse. This rarely happens, but if it does it is usually not that big of a deal b/c it is usually only a dollar or two. The dealer may not even notice.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, believe me he noticed.

[hoopsie44]

How did you want him to fix it ? He had dealt out 4 cards when OP pointed out he hadn't dealt him in. Did you want him to declare a misdeal? The dealer made a mistake and to sit there , win 6 pots, and not tip the dealer, believe me him feeling like a dick was the correct feeling to experience.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

His carelessness cost you $10 (dead SB money) and one hand. I would let him slide after you've stiffed him ten times. I'm usually on the side of tipping well, but hey, if every dealer got a dollar a pot, we'd ALL make MORE than we do now. Really, that's all we ask. But if you put your blind money out, told him to deal you in, and he wouldn't even back up a lousy three cards from the deal after HE made the mistake, well, screw him! I'm a big tipper, but I'm quite reasonable as well.

al

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree. I would've done exactly what the OP did. It wasn't that the dealer just made "a mistake", it was the fact that he didn't want to go to the tiniest bit of trouble to fix it.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you propose the dealer "fix" this mistake?

OP walked away from the table, cards were dealt. This is not a misdeal, the OP is out of the hand. Thats the rule, you can verify it by reading Bob Ciafone's "Robert's Rules". If the dealer declares a misdeal, then he or she is breaking the rules. If the dealer calls over the floor, the floor will rule the same way.

I played at the Wynn last month, stepped away from the table and asked the guy to my right to make sure I am dealt in. When I wasn't I asked why, the dealer said I have to be in my chair to be dealt in. Fair enough, thats the rules so I live with it.

As for your tips are not required anywhere ever statement - you obviously never worked in the service industry. These people have mouths to feed just like you do, every time you stiff them you are hurting their livelihood. They are willing to make minimum wage because the tips are what they really survive on, don't be such an ass... throw them a buck. If you are that tight that you can't afford a buck then you shouldn't be gambling with your money.

PS: You WILL be kicked in the nutz by Al Capone for your statement, on that I guarantee.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Actually, on this one, I was sympathetic. I personally will always deal someone in who puts up their blind money and says "deal me in." If they don't make it back to the table by the time the action is on them, they lose their blind. I know this isn't within the exact letter of the rules, but players appreciate it so much that I just do it anyway.

If the floor in your room is really hardcore about this stuff, obviously things would be different.

One thing tho, despite what I said, even with the mistake that I feel the dealer made, I'd probably tip anyway, as long as the dealer was at least slightly apologetic. Occasionally a dealer does piss me off enough to actually stiff them one or more times, but it's pretty rare, I am pretty forgiving, obviously.

al

[Milo]

[ QUOTE ]
His carelessness cost you $10 (dead SB money) and one hand. I would let him slide after you've stiffed him ten times. I'm usually on the side of tipping well, but hey, if every dealer got a dollar a pot, we'd ALL make MORE than we do now. Really, that's all we ask. But if you put your blind money out, told him to deal you in, and he wouldn't even back up a lousy three cards from the deal after HE made the mistake, well, screw him! I'm a big tipper, but I'm quite reasonable as well.

al

[/ QUOTE ]

Your reasonableness on this issue disappoints me, sir. I demand a nut-kicking for his nit-picking.

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
PS: You WILL be kicked in the nutz by Al Capone for your statement, on that I guarantee.

[/ QUOTE ]

The guy POSTED his blind. Some places have a rule that you must be seated to receive a hand, but I've never seen that enforced. I've been a few steps behind my chair stretching with the blind posted, and I've always gotten a hand.

Even if you think he shouldn't get one and shouldn't fix it, the fact is that the dealer agreed to do it, and then didn't. Even if it was just "a mistake", it cost the OP $10, and split that amount with the dealer. His prerogative. Tipping is an individual thing, a personal choice.

[spoohunter]

I do not tip when I am stuck, and I do not tip if the dealer is incompetent and slow.

A quick dealer, that keeps the action running and does not get confused I will tip every single hand I win (often even if I am stuck) and compliment them atleast twice a down.

[PhatCasino]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not tip when I am stuck, and I do not tip if the dealer is incompetent and slow.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to add a time to stop tipping - WHEN YOU ARE STUCK.. yes.. if you are nearing a time when your tired and an obvious end to your session - and your bottomline and hourly take is becoming apparent.... Stop tipping!

Pyschologically if you spend 4 hours at a table and you leave +$20 will you feel better than if you spend 4 hours and leave -$20? Well, this depends on the person... If it doesn't matter to ya, then forget what ima bout to say..

But to me? I'd much rather enter a pokerlog of +$20 then -$20 and hell, if a dealer has to suffer for me to get there.. i really don't mind that much - and i might even enjoy their dirty looks - cuz we all know most dealers are horrible losing gambling addicts - and our tipping only feeds their problems /images/graemlins/club.gif

[goofball]

Interesting bag of mixed responses. Looking back after a night of sleep I don't feel as bad. First, I tip almost every dealer always. Even if I feel like the dealer is incompetent/rude and doesn't deserve a tip I usually forget to not tip them. In life I base my tips of courtesy and efficiency, most dealers satisfy the latter so if I decide not to tip it's usually because a dealer was very discourteous. When dealerse misdeal I don't think of stiffing them, when they screw up controlling the action, or another aspect of the game I don't think of stiffing them. The only time I might consider stiffing a dealer for lack fo efficiency is if I felt it was clear they were both doing a very poor job (being slow and inaccurate) and I felt they could do better but weren't trying.

In my opinion this dealer was. I asked him to deal me in, seperated my big blind from my stack, and stepped not 5 feet away from him. Furthermore, I asked him to deal me in and he said he would. In spite of all that, had he just backed it up and dealt me in I wouldn't have considered stiffing him. If he'd dealt me in then killed my hand if I hadn't gotten back in time I would have never considered stiffing him. He either forgot or didn't care, and then couldn't even be bothered to back up 3 cards to fix it.

I barely think of tipping anymore, but I certianly don't think every dealer is owed $1 per pot they dealer no matter their atitude.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
In spite of all that, had he just backed it up and dealt me in I wouldn't have considered stiffing him. If he'd dealt me in then killed my hand if I hadn't gotten back in time I would have never considered stiffing him. He either forgot or didn't care, and then couldn't even be bothered to back up 3 cards to fix it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Did any of the players look at their 3 cards? Was any player delt a second card yet?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[MegumiAmano]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally will always deal someone in who puts up their blind money and says "deal me in." If they don't make it back to the table by the time the action is on them, they lose their blind. I know this isn't within the exact letter of the rules, but players appreciate it so much that I just do it anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

At Canterbury we had a dealer who would deal players in for one extra hand after they got up (non-blind of course). He did this so that the person would be eligible for the jackpot for that extra hand. Seemed like a pretty cool move to me, likely makes zero difference in the outcome of anything, and makes the players happy.

[goofball]

First question I don't know. However as I'm sure you know it's very uncommon for someone to have already looked there.

Second question How would that even be possible if only 3 cards have been dealt?

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
First question I don't know. However as I'm sure you know it's very uncommon for someone to have already looked there.

Second question How would that even be possible if only 3 cards have been dealt?

[/ QUOTE ]

The second question was a trick one ... just wanted to keep you honest /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I present to you from Robert's Rules of Poker, the rules on Misdeals:

MISDEALS
1. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands. (If two players have acted in turn, the deal must be played to conclusion, as explained in rule #2)
(a) The first or second card of the hand has been dealt face up or exposed through dealer error.
(b) Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer.
(c) Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found.
(d) Two or more extra cards have been dealt in the starting hands of a game.
(e) An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in proper sequence.
(f) Any card has been dealt out of the proper sequence (except an exposed card may be replaced by the burncard).
(g) The button was out of position.
(h) The first card was dealt to the wrong position.
(i) Cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a player not entitled to a hand.
(j) A player has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand. This player must be present at the table or have posted a blind or ante.
2. Once action occurs, a misdeal can no longer be declared. The hand will be played to conclusion, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button games, action is considered to occur when two players after the blinds have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.

As you can see, unless the dealer was enforcing the no-seat no cards policy (as did happen to me in the same room just one month earlier, however I wasn't in the blinds) then the hand should have been declared a misdeal. The no-seat policy exists to encourage a fast game, which in turn is more profitable for the house (assuming it is a raked game of course). Since the dealer continued then its your responsibility to call the floor to ask for a ruling. Not stopping the game was your error, you have to protect your rights.

Now back to tipping... its ok to skip the dealer's tip the next pot you win, but to skip tipping the dealer during his or her entire down is horrible. Anyone in this thread who took the tightwad approach needs to read Barry G's new book.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[jay b.]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like the dealer, and don't plan to tip, then don't play.

[/ QUOTE ]

f that

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
(j) A player has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand. This player must be present at the table or have posted a blind or ante.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. So the question becomes did I, by seperating 3 chips from my stack and askign the dealer to deal me in "post a blind." My guess would be that I did and that it's a misdeal. However, it seems more -EV to me to stop the game, get a floorperson, declare a misdeal and annoy the hell out of everyone. If that won't label me as a grumpy nit in the eyes of the players I don't know what would. I don't think it's too +EV to punish players for a dealers mistake. I did take a split second to consider making a bigger fuss, but came to the above conclusion.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone in this thread who took the tightwa approach needs to read Barry G's new book

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love to read Barry G's new book.

edit: I guess this was my Pooh-Bah post. Whoo.

[dicelumpY2005]

Some of you already know that I'm a dealer...so my opinions can be biased at times. If the dealer has an attitude problem, or is doing something that appears to be pissing the whole table off, I don't think they deserve a tip. (This coming from the mouth of a dealer). Show some respect to the players, act friendly, and the tips will come... If you're out there to piss off the players, don't expect much in the way of tips, plain and simple. Hate the idea that players should be obligated to toke just because they're winning... The player earned the pot, so let the dealer earn the tip! (i.e. game control, personality, etc...)

[KenProspero]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy POSTED his blind. Some places have a rule that you must be seated to receive a hand, but I've never seen that enforced.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen this enforced. Recently at Mandalay, the dealer did this. When asked, he was very apologetic and said that the Floor had told the dealers specifically that someone has to be at the table to see a hand, and that he'd been written up over it in the past.

Other places are more lax. Last night at Turning Stone, a couple of players from the table got up after folding on many hands -- I don't have the slightest idea why, as long as they were in the vicinity (that is visibly walking back) so that they weren't holding up the game, the dealers dealt them cards.

I think this is a casino-by-casino rule.

To the OP, depending on the casino's policy on this matter, the Dealer's biggest 'sin' was that he didn't tell you how tight the rule was when you gave him your chips. His second biggest 'sin' was not being more sympathetic when you complained (unfortunately, a minority of dealers don't quite understand that sympathy goes a long way in the hospitality industry).

To me, the whole situation sounds like a human screw up -- and we all know, they happen. If it were me, I'd probably have written it off. If I were steaming, two hands, max on skipping the tip. Anything else seems too severe.

[KenProspero]

[ QUOTE ]
Hate the idea that players should be obligated to toke just because they're winning... The player earned the pot, so let the dealer earn the tip! (i.e. game control, personality, etc...)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's interesting, I'm not a dealer, but come at it differently. If I go to a restaurant, and get mediocre service, I'm generally expected to tip. With excellent service, I tip a bit more, and if the service is truly crappy, I can decline to tip, but in general, 15-18% of the check is expected.

This isn't really a subject of debate, tipping waitresses is the custom in the US, and if you don't do it, you're a cheap SOB.

I look at tipping dealers the same. I give a buck for most pots, sometimes skipping a pot if it was very small (though if I have two small pots in the same shift, I'll throw the buck on the second one) sometimes tipping more if it was a big pot.

If I really like a dealer, I'll throw a buck or two at the change, if I think the dealer is a jerk, I may occasionally skip a pot.

However, tokes is just a part of the game.

For record-keeping purposes, I try to track my tips separately, so I can do comparisons of my play with on-line playing. The expected cost of tips is added in with gas-hotel bills, etc. when I play on line.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like goofball's actions here, but what I dislike more are those of you who responded to this thread, saying its ok. If you don't like the dealer, and don't plan to tip, then don't play. Take a break, walk away, or just sit in your chair and mope... but if you don't plan on paying your share of the dealer's wages (tips are part of wages in the mind of the IRS, the dealer's kid's, the dealer's 85 year old mom who is relying on this money to pay for her hospital bills)then stay out of the game until the next orbit.

Dealers make mistakes just like we all do, they are human. To not tip them when they push you a pot is subhuman. Lets all try to rise above.... tip your dealers. Always.

PS: Since you had a conscience, I think Al Capone won't kick you in the nutz this time /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
tt, i like ya and all, but youre wrong about this

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like goofball's actions here, but what I dislike more are those of you who responded to this thread, saying its ok. If you don't like the dealer, and don't plan to tip, then don't play. Take a break, walk away, or just sit in your chair and mope... but if you don't plan on paying your share of the dealer's wages (tips are part of wages in the mind of the IRS, the dealer's kid's, the dealer's 85 year old mom who is relying on this money to pay for her hospital bills)then stay out of the game until the next orbit.

Dealers make mistakes just like we all do, they are human. To not tip them when they push you a pot is subhuman. Lets all try to rise above.... tip your dealers. Always.

PS: Since you had a conscience, I think Al Capone won't kick you in the nutz this time /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
tt, i like ya and all, but you're wrong about this

[/ QUOTE ]

For full disclosure I won't tip when we never see a flop, or when its less than 4 bets in the pot. I also won't tip if the pot is split heads up with no other players when only the house profited from the hand due to rake. Lastly I won't tip the dealer if he or she is rude, or interferes in some way with the table... but in the rare times this occurs I just politely stop playing until the dealer is gone (I'll discuss the situation if its warranted with the floor as well, but I've never had to do that yet).

In a restaurant if a regular customer never tips any servers, they will most likely be 86'ed, however if they never tip one specific server then that server doesn't have to wait on the customer any more. In a casino the dealer is stuck in that chair doing his or her job (even if its being done poorly), they don't have the option of not dealing to a specific player if he doesn't tip, but the player has the option of sitting out the down if he doesn't want to tip the dealer due to bad "customer service".

Let me tell you a little story why it pays to respect your dealer. Last week I was playing at a fantastic table at the Borg, two down to my left was a total donk who played any two cards. I could count the number of pots he didn't play on 1 hand over a 6 hour period. Dealer after dealer he would not tip when a pot was pushed to him, and when he did it to a dealer that both Mostsmooth and I really like a lot I made the announcement that for now on I would tip for the donk because he was too cheep to do so for himself. The dealer was so grateful but very embarrassed and at first refused my generous offer, but eventually she broke down and accepted it. This annoyed the donk (of course that was my plan) and he started play back at me very hard with garbage hands.. I created a maniac! Suffice to say he steamed off all his chips into my general direction. But the best part was when I mucked at a checked showdown after my draw was unimproved and he asked to see my hand... the dealer pretended to ignore him and quickly grabbed my cards into the muck, while explaining that once his opponents cards are in the muck its too late; all while winking at me.

It pays to be kind to your dealer eh?

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Jeffage]

Your actions could have had the opposite effect - driving this chip spewer from the game. That would have ticked me off if I was at the table.

Jeff

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Your actions could have had the opposite effect - driving this chip spewer from the game. That would have ticked me off if I was at the table.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have been a psychiatrist. Trust me, this guy was going nowhere, I had no reason to fear that he would leave the table.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Easy E]

As for your tips are not required anywhere ever statement - you obviously never worked in the service industry. These people have mouths to feed just like you do, every time you stiff them you are hurting their livelihood. They are willing to make minimum wage because the tips are what they really survive on, don't be such an ass... throw them a buck.

So, tipping is mandatory regardless of quality of service?


If you are that tight that you can't afford a buck then you shouldn't be gambling with your money.

What does one have to do with the other?

[DanS]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do not tip when I am stuck, and I do not tip if the dealer is incompetent and slow.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to add a time to stop tipping - WHEN YOU ARE STUCK.. yes.. if you are nearing a time when your tired and an obvious end to your session - and your bottomline and hourly take is becoming apparent.... Stop tipping!

Pyschologically if you spend 4 hours at a table and you leave +$20 will you feel better than if you spend 4 hours and leave -$20? Well, this depends on the person... If it doesn't matter to ya, then forget what ima bout to say..

But to me? I'd much rather enter a pokerlog of +$20 then -$20 and hell, if a dealer has to suffer for me to get there.. i really don't mind that much - and i might even enjoy their dirty looks - cuz we all know most dealers are horrible losing gambling addicts - and our tipping only feeds their problems /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who will stiff a shitty dealer: You're a [censored] idiot.

[balt999]

Seems like a very petty reason not to toke the dealer...

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like a very petty reason not to toke the dealer...

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what reason would you choose not to toke a dealer?

[balt999]

Not sure cause I've never stiffed a dealer

[Born 2 Loose]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, when I'm playing 15/30 and up I tip $1/pot almost universally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, is your name Rockefeller?

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
a dealers tip shouldn't be based on how much I win, but still, as he kept pushing me pot after pot, and I kept not sliding him a buck, I started to feel like a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why not just tip him if it makes you feel better? You can change your mind.

[LasVegasMichael]

Tom,

Just really interested in the old tipping topics, huh? At least you used the search! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bobman0330]

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly I won't tip the dealer if he or she is rude, or interferes in some way with the table... but in the rare times this occurs I just politely stop playing until the dealer is gone

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything else you said is sensible, but this is just silly. You're going to let a crappy dealer force you out of a game?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lastly I won't tip the dealer if he or she is rude, or interferes in some way with the table... but in the rare times this occurs I just politely stop playing until the dealer is gone

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything else you said is sensible, but this is just silly. You're going to let a crappy dealer force you out of a game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Your whole "If you don't intend to tip for a down you shouldn't let yourself get dealt in" stance is, frankly, absurd.

[Perk76]

So what do dealers think when a player chops a 1.00 tip for a .50 piece on every tip? I have saw many use this a method to record how many hands they win etc.

[ungarop]

[ QUOTE ]
So what do dealers think when a player chops a 1.00 tip for a .50 piece on every tip? I have saw many use this a method to record how many hands they win etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen this from 2/4 limit players at Foxwoods, but I have not seen it anywhere else (CA or LV).

[Perk76]

This was 1/2 NL...Soaring Eagle.

[NT!]

goofball,

I don't have a big problem with this. I probably would have started feeling bad around the third win. If the dealer had apologized for the mistake I would probably tip him anyway.

NT