Float or raise?

[Misanthrope]

6max.
Villain is solid.
you hold 66.
UTG raises and you call, everyone else folds.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
Villain bets 3/4 pot.

You decide not to believe them.

How often do you float and call, intending to take the pot away on the turn if they check.
Do you ever minraise?
How often do you put in a reasonable size raise?

Currently I'm raising the flop, a bit more than a minraise.
Overs usually find it really hard to call + they don't get a free card.

Thoughts.

Edit: + I imagine if anyone is watching they will call your legit hands more often.

Edit: Did I say free card. I'm obviously confused.

[2Paul2]

I usually call here and re-evaluate on the turn. If he's got overs he's already charged himself too much by betting 3/4 pot.

Paul

[xwillience]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually call here and re-evaluate on the turn. If he's got overs he's already charged himself too much by betting 3/4 pot.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

i REALLY dont understand this waiting till the turn thing. It makes NO sense to me to give this guy a free look at the turn. Why not raise it and take it down or raise it and be done with it. Sure, calling means you invest less money but if this guy has overs and is cbetting here why do you want to let an A/K/Q/J hit? I think in this hand the flop is the place to make the move.

[twang]

[ QUOTE ]
i REALLY dont understand this waiting till the turn thing. It makes NO sense to me to give this guy a free look at the turn. Why not raise it and take it down or raise it and be done with it. Sure, calling means you invest less money but if this guy has overs and is cbetting here why do you want to let an A/K/Q/J hit? I think in this hand the flop is the place to make the move.

[/ QUOTE ]
Calling does not mean you're investing less (unless you plan to take the free card on the turn). Calling the flop and popping a ~1/2 psb if checked to is a bit more expensive than raising the flop - not by much, but still more expensive.

That said, waiting for 4th street have some major advantages:
* There are 4 cards out. Unless villain hits his hand, EVERY turncard is a scarecard for him; possible straightcards (you hit the straight), pairing the board-cards (you made trips/FH), flushcards (you made the flush), blank cards (you turned a set or have a slowplayed flopped set) etc.

* Imagebuilding for future hands

* If facing action you can fold with a high degree of certainty that you're behind

* Flop raises get called a lot. What then? 4th street, a big pot and not knowing where you're at is no fun

* You might actually turn a set

Und so weiter.

[Misanthrope]

[ QUOTE ]
You might actually turn a set

[/ QUOTE ]

You would turn a set if you raise, assuming villain doesnt reraise you out of the pot.

[Misanthrope]

[ QUOTE ]
* There are 4 cards out. Unless villain hits his hand, EVERY turncard is a scarecard for him; possible straightcards (you hit the straight), pairing the board-cards (you made trips/FH), flushcards (you made the flush), blank cards (you turned a set or have a slowplayed flopped set) etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm, perhaps call on a dangerous board increasing the chances of a turn scare card.
Raise on a dry board yaaaa.

[jah7_fsu1]

[ QUOTE ]
* There are 4 cards out. Unless villain hits his hand, EVERY turncard is a scarecard for him; possible straightcards (you hit the straight), pairing the board-cards (you made trips/FH), flushcards (you made the flush), blank cards (you turned a set or have a slowplayed flopped set) etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to play devils advocate.... At the same time MOST turn cards could be a scare for you. Really anything over an 8 casts doubt on if you still or ever had the best hand (with a possible exception being the 10 if we believe villian would have bet with top pair. A 9 completes the straight for a raised JQ. A-9 would be a possible raising hand. Perhaps a lot of the deck scares him if he missed, but at the same time a lot of the deck scares US in a hand that may already be beat. You made a good point, just trying to get some discussion going.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever minraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not since I learned a little bit about the game.

This play really tends to be a read type thing on the action I take. Does Villian bet ever flop he raises? Does he ever go for a check-raise when connecting flops? Most of the time I bump this up to a bit past the minimum as you said and evaluate villians action.

[twang]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
* There are 4 cards out. Unless villain hits his hand, EVERY turncard is a scarecard for him; possible straightcards (you hit the straight), pairing the board-cards (you made trips/FH), flushcards (you made the flush), blank cards (you turned a set or have a slowplayed flopped set) etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm, perhaps call on a dangerous board increasing the chances of a turn scare card.
Raise on a dry board yaaaa.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, that's fine. My point was that when you've been called pf and on the flop, every 4th street card (not just flush/straight cards) are possible scare cards for an unimproved broadway hand, or a medium pocket pair (or sometimes even a big pair).

[amoeba]

they both have merits. think about how villain plays overpairs and how villain plays overcards. does he 2nd barrel, etc... and then correlate that to the advantages and disadvantages of each line.

[keikiwai]

amoeba, you're saying it's read dependent?

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
amoeba, you're saying it's read dependent?

[/ QUOTE ]

everything in poker is read dependent.

but yes, there aren't any standard lines here.

I mean if you had a read that villain folds everything except a set to a decent sized flop raise then flop raise is much better than float right?

[jah7_fsu1]

Damn amoeba, I read him say it's read dependent and I was prepared to put EXACTLY what you did. How is it NOT read dependent. Very, very few decisions in poker are not made easier/more effective without reads. Obviously playing aces preflop all in or playing for your stack with the flopped nuts doesn't require reads, but tons of other decisions do.

[twang]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
* There are 4 cards out. Unless villain hits his hand, EVERY turncard is a scarecard for him; possible straightcards (you hit the straight), pairing the board-cards (you made trips/FH), flushcards (you made the flush), blank cards (you turned a set or have a slowplayed flopped set) etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to play devils advocate.... At the same time MOST turn cards could be a scare for you. Really anything over an 8 casts doubt on if you still or ever had the best hand (with a possible exception being the 10 if we believe villian would have bet with top pair. A 9 completes the straight for a raised JQ. A-9 would be a possible raising hand. Perhaps a lot of the deck scares him if he missed, but at the same time a lot of the deck scares US in a hand that may already be beat. You made a good point, just trying to get some discussion going.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, obviously just about every card is a scare card for us too, but only a few cards actually does improves villain's hand. If it does, he will let us know and we can correctly fold (or if he calls, check behind or fold on the river). The point of this play is that we often create a lose-lose situation for villain - either by make him A. fold a better hand than ours or B. fold a hand that could outdraw us or C. pay us for drawing to one pair.