Existence

[BigSoonerFan]

It's 11:30 AM and as usual, I find myself pondering my existence, as well as the existence of the universe, etc. I find myself doing this far too often and it frequently depresses me. Luckily I have two beautiful girls that I get to enjoy watching (and helping) grow up. It isn't the meaning of life I'm looking for, but why do we exist? Either we were created by a higher being or we evolved out of nothing. (I'm agnostic at best) Both are mind-numbing when trying to really comprehend. Either infinite existence, or nothing. My thoughts on the subject are more frequent in the last few years as I've lost my grandfather to cancer(more like my father) and many wonderful pets that I've been close to (to cancer and FIP). This morning I'm taking another cat to the vet for surgery to remove a tumor. He'll be lucky to survive the surgery. All just adds to my pondering. Not really sure what I'm even looking for here...

[cambraceres]

Despite your cryptic wording, I know what you are saying. I have not thought in these terms for a long while. It seems now I am more in tune with the individual trees, you are pondering a forest. I determined that whatever providence may or may not exist has not given us enough information to solve this eternal riddle. If it is making you depressed you should step back and ask what effect solving such a problem would have on your life. Do you even know what that would be like, what terms the answer would come in?

I don't, and honestly alot of the fun of living and doing would be taken away

Plato has taught many that true wisdom lies in knowing what to do with your ignorance

That is exactly your issue

Cam

[Trantor]

[ QUOTE ]

Luckily I have two beautiful girls that I get to enjoy watching (and helping) grow up. It isn't the meaning of life I'm looking for, but why do we exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason you exist is to pass on your genes and ensure your offspring survive to do likewise (and hence further procreate your genetic make up). So what you have may not be the meaning you are hoping to find but it is the only one!

[hmkpoker]

http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/7475/lsdbottle14qk.jpg

Take two and call me in the morning.

[Copernicus]

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http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/7475/lsdbottle14qk.jpg

Take two and call me in the morning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting synchronicity. Since frequenting a few SMP/Religion boards Ive been wondering if it isnt time to return to those lucid states I often found myslef in during the 60s/70s and see if age changes any of the insights I had.

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
It's 11:30 AM and as usual, I find myself pondering my existence, as well as the existence of the universe, etc. I find myself doing this far too often and it frequently depresses me. Luckily I have two beautiful girls that I get to enjoy watching (and helping) grow up. It isn't the meaning of life I'm looking for, but why do we exist? Either we were created by a higher being or we evolved out of nothing. (I'm agnostic at best) Both are mind-numbing when trying to really comprehend. Either infinite existence, or nothing. My thoughts on the subject are more frequent in the last few years as I've lost my grandfather to cancer(more like my father) and many wonderful pets that I've been close to (to cancer and FIP). This morning I'm taking another cat to the vet for surgery to remove a tumor. He'll be lucky to survive the surgery. All just adds to my pondering. Not really sure what I'm even looking for here...

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not clear whether you are thinking about "meanings" for existence, or whether we actually exist or its just an illusion/part of some higher order beings imagination etc.

On the first, I dont think there is any meaning. We are animals that have the same goal as any other life form..perpetuation of the species.

On the second, it doesnt matter. Either we do exist and go on living like we do with intent and the appearance of free will, or we dont and will behave in whatever fashion the illusion carries us, but with the appearance of existence.

[bunny]

My view is that it doesnt matter if we are random occurrences of nature, part of some "divine plan" worked out completely in advance or somewhere in between. I think our lives have inherent meaning because we make ethical decisions - this is something only a being with consciousness can do and it is good for its own sake.

You are bringing up two girls - to me the fact they have your genes doesnt make the act of bringing them up mean anything. What makes it mean something special (in my view) is the fact that you are making choices, loving them, guiding them and helping them grow into better people - that is something worthwhile and special regardless of if you are on the way to eternal life or if you only live for a brief few years.

[sedg]

Try researching 'Spirital Realms', you may find the answers you're looking for.

[Andrew Karpinski]

There is no meaning to life; it is meaningless. This does not detract from it's wonder.

[MrMon]

The answer to the meaning of life is - Life is what you make it.

No one is going to tell you the answer, though lots of people like to try and tell you the answer. That's their answer, not yours.

[BigSoonerFan]

[ QUOTE ]
Despite your cryptic wording, I know what you are saying. I have not thought in these terms for a long while. It seems now I am more in tune with the individual trees, you are pondering a forest. I determined that whatever providence may or may not exist has not given us enough information to solve this eternal riddle. If it is making you depressed you should step back and ask what effect solving such a problem would have on your life. Do you even know what that would be like, what terms the answer would come in?

I don't, and honestly alot of the fun of living and doing would be taken away

Plato has taught many that true wisdom lies in knowing what to do with your ignorance

That is exactly your issue

Cam

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply. I do tend to babble. I'm not just pondering a forest, but THE forest. Not just existence of me or mankind, but existence itself. Nothing new, I know.

I believe I am a somewhat logical and fairly intelligent, logical person, albeit poor at expressing my views. I have little doubt that the Big Bang, evolution, etc, define exactly what happened in developing our universe. The problem is that it all came from nothing. Believing that an intelligent being guided that development is another complicated concept to grasp (in a scientific sense).

[BigSoonerFan]

[ QUOTE ]
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Luckily I have two beautiful girls that I get to enjoy watching (and helping) grow up. It isn't the meaning of life I'm looking for, but why do we exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason you exist is to pass on your genes and ensure your offspring survive to do likewise (and hence further procreate your genetic make up). So what you have may not be the meaning you are hoping to find but it is the only one!

[/ QUOTE ]

But why does the universe exist out of nothing? Any comprehension of that? Or does everyone just dismiss it because it is not able to be understood?

[BigSoonerFan]

[ QUOTE ]
On the second, it doesnt matter. Either we do exist and go on living like we do with intent and the appearance of free will, or we dont and will behave in whatever fashion the illusion carries us, but with the appearance of existence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately "it doesn't matter" isn't enough for me.

[Copernicus]

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On the second, it doesnt matter. Either we do exist and go on living like we do with intent and the appearance of free will, or we dont and will behave in whatever fashion the illusion carries us, but with the appearance of existence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately "it doesn't matter" isn't enough for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad choice of words...try "it has no possible consequence"

[morphball]

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Luckily I have two beautiful girls that I get to enjoy watching (and helping) grow up. It isn't the meaning of life I'm looking for, but why do we exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason you exist is to pass on your genes and ensure your offspring survive to do likewise (and hence further procreate your genetic make up). So what you have may not be the meaning you are hoping to find but it is the only one!

[/ QUOTE ]

But why does the universe exist out of nothing? Any comprehension of that? Or does everyone just dismiss it because it is not able to be understood?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you be sure the universe even exists?

[JMAnon]

[ QUOTE ]
But why does the universe exist out of nothing?

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you are asking why there is something rather than nothing. There is only one answer to that question: there is no reason. Something exists. That answer isn't satisfying to us, because we are culturally and biologically driven to discover the cause of things (and because it is scary if we ultimately exist for no reason). But even if we posit a god that created everything we see, hear and touch, (i.e., the universe) that would not explain why there is a god rather than nothing.

[RagnarPirate]

My life is an end in itself. The purpose of my life is my life. And I do everything to make it immensely satisfying. The origin of my life is important to me only to the extent that it effects the joy of my life. I find it fascinating to consider the origin of this universe. And it seems that de novo universe creation defies the internal laws of this universe (1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics). If it turns out that we are eternal beings, all the better. If, not, it only makes your individual life all the more valuable. Carpe Diem.

[UlidEyes]

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The problem is that it all came from nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It couldn't have come from nothing, because if there was no energy to create it, it couldn't have been created. If it came from something, then from where did that something come? The same argument prevails.

Most likely the universe never came into existence, it just "is."

This idea can be scientifically enforced by considering the universe continuously exploding and collapsing. Big bang -> expansion -> black holes grow in numbers as expansion slows -> black holes eventually consume everything and each other - > universe condenses into one tiny unit, and repeat.

It may make sense that the universe simply "is," but still doesn't help explain why it is.

Ironically, the same perpetuation of human existence can be compared to the perpetuation of the universe, making everything even more meaningless than it already is.

OR

this is exactly what existence IS. We, as human beings (and other forms of life), mimic the perpetuation of the universe, for no other reason than because it "is," and becase we "are."

If you want to be even more optimistic...

the idea of a scientifically eternal universe may suggest an eternal plane/realm within reach by the inhabitants of that eternal universe. Whether or not this is possible, you can at least look into your daughters' eyes and know/feel what it means to be apart of a tangible eternity. You know and feel what it truly means to exist.

I hope this helps a little, and the REAL answer is that human beings simply can't comprehend the complete and true nature of what the universe is, and what existence is. That doesn't mean we can't try.

-Box

[evolvedForm]

Regarding the statement, "We are just animals." This concerns me greatly. Though I share this belief, I find it utterly disconcerting. I also believe, and not without reason, that we are capable of trancending our animality. We do this in our arts and literature, by stepping back and wondering, and by making ethical, perhaps selfless decisions.

It may be best to put it this way: there is no meaning, but we can find or create meaning. I cannot accept the biological definitions of humanity as meaningful or significant. Facts though they may be, as such they carry no meaning unto themselves.

[surftheiop]

"it has no possible consequence"
If there is a god it might

[godBoy]

I'm convinced of an eternal entity. It's simply an impossibliity that this all came from nothing.

Absolute Nothingness is absolute nothingness now and forever..
For something to be added to it, that thing that was added had to have existed.. Knowing that something eternal has existed makes it easier for me to accept a life after death.

[godBoy]

In the explanation of the expanding/collapsing universe theory I read.. The cycles aren't the same.. After however many births the universe has it still leads to a singularity, so with each expansion it doesn't reach the same distance as the previous. So in the explanantion I read this model still suggested a finite universe and a beginning. Is this incorrect? If so, the universe does not simply 'exist' rather it was created at a point in time.