Poker Office or Poker Tracker?

[Barrin6]

Which one is better? I don't know which one to get

[RyanC]

poker tracker

[Elevens]

The only time I see PokerOffice mentioned on these forums is when someone asks this very question.

[patk]

Try 'em both out. Personally, I have used them both, and I used to use PT mostly. But, PO2 was just released in which they added a ton of new stuff, like playback functionality (Tracker already has that) as well as some new stats etc... Since it was released, I've not used tracker... The overlay (HUD functionality) rocks, and so does the livetracker.

Also, the database code feels faster in PO. Importing histories, updating the DB, etc... all feel much faster. If you ever try to import a bunch of HH at once into tracker you'll see what I mean.

Not trying to knock tracker, like I said, I use them both, but with the release of PO2, it's not so clear cut what the best tool is. IMO, it swung to the PO side, but then, we all know what they say about opinions /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[3CardMonty]

I don't know I have neither but I can tell you this. I am seriously looking at Poker Office now.

When I posted on the Poker Tracker forum for each HUD listed on the main page and linked to the forum asking if they were compatible (pre purchase question) with Hold'em Genius I got a very nasty response back from the PT forum moderator. I also got cut off from the forum and called a spammer for asking that simple question before I put my money in on a product offering. Never did I mention anything about Hold'em Genius other than asking the question above.

WhenI wrote an equally nasty e-mail about the moderator I got no response from the Poker Tracker sales area and I stll demand an apology from Poker Tracker. It is long over due at this point.

Must be a one man shop but it is not the only game in town!

[Overdrive]

I have used both of them and I like Pokeroffice better. Ymmv.

[Lestat]

Will PokerAce work with office? If not, what HUDs are available with Poker Office? Thanks.

Oh, and what about PokerGrapher? Will that work with Office? Is there a way to calculate rakeback if you just use PokerOffice? Thanks again.

[patk]

[ QUOTE ]
Will PokerAce work with office? If not, what HUDs are available with Poker Office? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. PA uses the PT database. But there is no need for a PA tool because HUD functionality is built in. Additionally, you also get pot odds and odds for your draws displayed on the HUD/overlay. Look here for an example
http://www.pokeroffice.com/screenshots/empire_100.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and what about PokerGrapher? Will that work with Office? Is there a way to calculate rakeback if you just use PokerOffice? Thanks again.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Those tools use the PT database. However, PO does have it's own graphing tools built in, so you don't need external graphing tools.

On the rakeback, there is no calculator for that. Great idea for a feature request though. I'll ask the developer, they're very open to adding new things like this.

[3CardMonty]

While your in the asking mode ask them to add Bodog, and Full Tilt to the mix.

The absence of major rooms is the only draw back I see with PO.

Yes you are correct about the odds display and it is nice to have that on screen since there is little time to make that calculation online and frees you up for other things to consider.

How does PO compare to PT in the analysis arena?

Monty

[3CardMonty]

Can you please explain why you like PO better?

I am on the edge of buying something and need all the input I can get.

[Overdrive]

Well, first one of the bad things about Poker Office is that they do not support nearly as many sites as Pokertracker. Poker Office does not support any of the Pokerroom network rooms, Ultimate Bet, and other MAJOR poker networks. But I just like the way Poker Office is laid out better and to me it is easier to use.

[jsnipes28]

I used PokerOffice for my first 50K hands or so but it became painstakingly slow. I really liked the overlay on the tables and it was very easy to use for a non-techie. However it broke the other week and i couldnt get any decent advice from support on how to fix it or recover my database.

I just switched to PT and like it, however i feel retarded bc i can't seem to figure out PA HUD.

[Tooork]

[ QUOTE ]
I used PokerOffice for my first 50K hands or so but it became painstakingly slow. I really liked the overlay on the tables and it was very easy to use for a non-techie.

[/ QUOTE ]
The new live tracker is a lot faster, I used to have the same problem with the old version but with PO2 everythings flows.

[PokerAce]

[ QUOTE ]
I just switched to PT and like it, however i feel retarded bc i can't seem to figure out PA HUD.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a tutorial on the PokerAce Software website (see my profile). If you need additional help, feel free to ask on my forums or even here if you wish.

[patk]

[ QUOTE ]
How does PO compare to PT in the analysis arena?

[/ QUOTE ]

With PO2, they are very comparable. You get pretty much the same information, just located in different areas.

One thing I found last night that I totally love is the "replay from graph" feature. PO2 has a bunch of graphs available... Say you're looking at your graph of BB/hand. You find a big spike (either up or down) and want to see what happened happened there. Simply highlight that portion of the graph and a menu pops up which allows you to replay those hands so you can see what you did right (or wrong). Real nice!

But as far as other analysis goes, they're about the same only located in different spots... Not sure which I like better. I got used to using tracker for analysis, so that biased me. Still getting used to the office stats and where they are located, so it's hard to say now which is better.

[purp]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you please explain why you like PO better?

I am on the edge of buying something and need all the input I can get.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for SnG PT is much better for analysing your HHs, easier to split down by the BB level of game, to see where your leaks are + it has the replayer so once you've seen that your loosing loads with AQo at level 1 & 2 you can replay the hands and actually see what you did wrong. Then with PA HUD you can also filter the overlay stats to the number of players left in the game which is also great.

However PO is much easier on the eye and a nicer interface, it also comes with the built in HU which i think is much easier to use and looks nearer on the table. + PO has now released a V2 which has many of the extra features that PT already had (replayer and more stats).

But another good thing about PT with PA HUD is that the beta version works with resized tables, so if you multi table using Party poker beta the stats fit nicely on the table, PO doesn't do this.

PT and PA both do a free trial, why not download them and see if you like them. I still prefer the look of PO but the PA HUD functions i've mentioned above have kept me using that and PT at the moment.

I think you can get PO free if you sign up and deposit with one of their poker sites, so you should try them all before you buy and see which is best for you.

Cheers

[3CardMonty]

Many thank's for a kind and sharing reply.

I did notince that PO also can import data from PT as well. I hate to get wrapped up in a two program scheme but it appears this remains an option.

If PO only offered support for some of the other sites I play it would make this decision much easier. I have written them directly on those matters.

Thank you!
Monty

[3CardMonty]

Yes you can the offer is a sign up on Empire.

Now im thinking I may get both again.

Monty

[3CardMonty]

This was my concern also so I sent them an e-mail below.

> I want to purchase something and soon. Could you please tell me what your
> plans are for adding the following sites.
>
> 1. Full Tilt Poker
> 2. Bodog
> 3. Poker Room
> 4. Ultimate Bet
> 5. Absolute Poker
> 6. Titan Poker
> 7. Hollywood Poker
>
> Many thanks in advance,
> Monty

Dear Monty
We will focus hard on adding support for new poker rooms this winter and
spring since we have just released many new features. Next up is Pacific
Poker which is due soon. After that we are looking at both Ulitmate Bet
and Poker room. Titan Poker is already supported, except for the table
overlay. Absolute and Full Tilt is also in the plans but it will take a
few months.

Best Regards,
Andreas Toresäter
PokerOffice AB

[3CardMonty]

There is one thing I know and the author of PA HUD is one heck of a gentleman and business like person.

Try asking if he has any notes on the area your are having trouble with or where to go for the help. I am pretty sure he will supply something or point you to a good place.

Monty

[3CardMonty]

Good info and again thanks. I have a degree in IT so some of this may not be a problem in my court but still good to know.

I spoke to soon up the thread. Before I read it the prior poster had an answer. Gee I do love this site.

Monty

[3CardMonty]

Looks like this may soon change.

Could it be that competition is bringing technology up to speed with demand?

Monty

[3CardMonty]

Im laughing now this reminds me of two uncle's, one saying Ford, the other Chevy.

Funny thing is both were driving hondas in the end.

Ok that's one more for PT and so noted.

Monty

[Albert Silver]

[ QUOTE ]
Which one is better? I don't know which one to get

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been a PT user for a while, and much appreciate the stats and information provided. However, the database has become unusably slow, same for a friend, and as of yesterday, due to the new PokerOffice version, including its reportedly fast MySQL database, I am strongly considering changing. It even allows one to import and convert one's PT database from what I've seen. I haven't tried this since the demo allows only 300 hands to import, still I must admit the program really is a sight for sore eyes. It is very nicely designed, kudos to the interface design work (said by someone who worked as a GUI designer). It also has a number of excellent graphs not to mention some interesting analytical choices such as how one does when working with a draw of some kind, overcards, etc. I'm hardly claiming it is better, especially since I've only looked at the demo, but this new version is very attractive in both its ease-of-use and functionality, and I will no doubt be buying it to give it a more serious test run.

Minutes and minutes of waiting to see some miserable stats from PT... Ugh.

Albert

[3CardMonty]

Here is a new question for the mix.

Does any one know of any sites that have banned Poker Office, Poker Tracker, or Poker Ace HUD, or other similar products? If so which products?

I do not and when I called Party Poker I could barely get past the accents.

Finally I got transfered to someone in investigations who was nice and insisted all third party software was banned on the site. I was on fire (politely) at that point so I kept on prying and asking the obvious questions then I hit on the Holy Grail of all the question.

Does you site ban software which only draws information off of my computer alone and not a centralized online data base?

Ahhh now things have changed. It seems this is ok all of a sudden. Why am I even going there I doubt I will play party any time soon again anyway.

Monty

[PurpleLight]

I'd be buying PO if it supported UB and FTP.

[ebranig]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know I have neither but I can tell you this. I am seriously looking at Poker Office now.

When I posted on the Poker Tracker forum for each HUD listed on the main page and linked to the forum asking if they were compatible (pre purchase question) with Hold'em Genius I got a very nasty response back from the PT forum moderator. I also got cut off from the forum and called a spammer for asking that simple question before I put my money in on a product offering. Never did I mention anything about Hold'em Genius other than asking the question above.

WhenI wrote an equally nasty e-mail about the moderator I got no response from the Poker Tracker sales area and I stll demand an apology from Poker Tracker. It is long over due at this point.

Must be a one man shop but it is not the only game in town!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is seriously the stupidest reason to not be using PT. You're losing a lot of money by missing out.

[3CardMonty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know I have neither but I can tell you this. I am seriously looking at Poker Office now.

When I posted on the Poker Tracker forum for each HUD listed on the main page and linked to the forum asking if they were compatible (pre purchase question) with Hold'em Genius I got a very nasty response back from the PT forum moderator. I also got cut off from the forum and called a spammer for asking that simple question before I put my money in on a product offering. Never did I mention anything about Hold'em Genius other than asking the question above.

WhenI wrote an equally nasty e-mail about the moderator I got no response from the Poker Tracker sales area and I stll demand an apology from Poker Tracker. It is long over due at this point.

Must be a one man shop but it is not the only game in town!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is seriously the stupidest reason to not be using PT. You're losing a lot of money by missing out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This goes beyond the past and the reception I received. This enters the area of ongoing support, currrent forum access to have an exchange with other users, and still unanswered questions about my other software and compatibility. In addition I have also added the information concerning slow database response time in PT. The ability to click on a PO graph and replay the hands plus aparrently improved database times over PT are consideration of great importance. I also like the odds display on the window in PO and this is the reason I ask PT about my other software to begin with.

The fact is that Poker Office will be purchased no question about it. I may be purchasing PT as well along with the very well written guide to it and PokerAce HUD but this does not answer the issues above. The providers of PokerAce HUD and the Poker Tracker Guide are wonderful, ethical, business minded folks and I would recommend them to any wanting to do business with them.

At this time the only reliable software offering I can see for myself is PO. I continue to have issues with PT they have yet to resolve.

Your point is well taken and im also sure well intended. I hope you can see mine in that light as well.

Monty

[Albert Silver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know I have neither but I can tell you this. I am seriously looking at Poker Office now.

When I posted on the Poker Tracker forum for each HUD listed on the main page and linked to the forum asking if they were compatible (pre purchase question) with Hold'em Genius I got a very nasty response back from the PT forum moderator. I also got cut off from the forum and called a spammer for asking that simple question before I put my money in on a product offering. Never did I mention anything about Hold'em Genius other than asking the question above.

WhenI wrote an equally nasty e-mail about the moderator I got no response from the Poker Tracker sales area and I stll demand an apology from Poker Tracker. It is long over due at this point.

Must be a one man shop but it is not the only game in town!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is seriously the stupidest reason to not be using PT. You're losing a lot of money by missing out.

[/ QUOTE ]

This goes beyond the past and the reception I received. This enters the area of ongoing support, currrent forum access to have an exchange with other users, and still unanswered questions about my other software and compatibility. In addition I have also added the information concerning slow database response time in PT. The ability to click on a PO graph and replay the hands plus aparrently improved database times over PT are consideration of great importance. I also like the odds display on the window in PO and this is the reason I ask PT about my other software to begin with.

The fact is that Poker Office will be purchased no question about it. I may be purchasing PT as well along with the very well written guide to it and PokerAce HUD but this does not answer the issues above. The providers of PokerAce HUD and the Poker Tracker Guide are wonderful, ethical, business minded folks and I would recommend them to any wanting to do business with them.

At this time the only reliable software offering I can see for myself is PO. I continue to have issues with PT they have yet to resolve.

Your point is well taken and im also sure well intended. I hope you can see mine in that light as well.

Monty

[/ QUOTE ]

I received my registration info today, and will post a review in a week or two after having had more time with the program.

Albert

[robracing]

Monty, you are in a minority of one if you have an issue with the support that you have received from Pat at PokerTracker.

By all means buy PokerOffice, but I absolutely guarantee that you won't be supported as well as I am PokerTracker.

I have worked in the software industry for 20 years and I can honestly say that PT Support is in a class of it's own.

[3CardMonty]

I think your likely a bit off in my position in the minority.

As far as who supports who better that's a call I can't make but I can tell you this. Poker Office is straight forward, well layed out, and may actually require much less support as a result.

PokerOffice is also an easy win along with the full bonus at Empire. This I can tell you from experience.

I can also tell you I am pleased to have picked that software up and that every question I have had of the PokerOffice team has been addressed quickly and suitably.

Now with respect to Poker Tracker, my complaint is how they handled me as a prospective customer and how they may handle me in the future given that history. I am sure the product is viable and may indeed pick it up as well. If I do then I suppose you could say I have a heads up since I will have both in my aresenal. When I am finished looking at what I need to look at within PokerOffice (stats etc.) I will take a look at Poker Tracker again as a suplemental product.

Monty

[Rhett]

Look everybody, the undeniable fact is that PokerTracker is slow as balls. The question is if PokerOffice is also slow as balls. I think the answer is yes

[Albert Silver]

[ QUOTE ]
Look everybody, the undeniable fact is that PokerTracker is slow as balls. The question is if PokerOffice is also slow as balls. I think the answer is yes

[/ QUOTE ]

You think 'yes'? Based on what?

I just got it, and have been enjoying it so far. Some issues, but ones that are related to changes by PP and PS in their software, so I expect them to be resolved. Their support has been forthcoming and attentive, which is all I expect. More than that shouldn't be necessary.

I can't discuss speed since my DB is undoubtedly far too small to measure this. Still, the DB is in MySQL and supposedly will continue to be very responsive even when the DB does grow a lot. I'll let others with more experience with this comment though.

Albert

[patk]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is if PokerOffice is also slow as balls. I think the answer is yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm, no. An import of 7K hands in office happens in minutes (< 5). Import in tracker took, well, so long I just left the PC running all night to finish the job...

PO2 is very responsive. Even with 8 windows open, PO only blips on CPU usage in taskmon when a new hand is dealt, and even then, it's only a blip. No lag/hesitation whatsoever, and that's accessing the DB every hand to save/recalculate the stats for each player.

Not trying to bash tracker by any means, I still have it and think it's a fine tool. However, the discussion of the merits of each should be based on facts...

[primetime32]

Let me ask this related question. Does it pay to you use both for different pokerrooms? I would think that by using both you lessen the load on each and thereby preventing each from getting too slow.

The cost of each is relatively small considering the stakes most of us play.

[patk]

[ QUOTE ]
The cost of each is relatively small considering the stakes most of us play.

[/ QUOTE ]

The most succinct and correct statement I have heard yet /images/graemlins/smile.gif That's actually why I have both...

[ QUOTE ]
Let me ask this related question. Does it pay to you use both for different pokerrooms? I would think that by using both you lessen the load on each and thereby preventing each from getting too slow.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could do that, but I don't think that's a good reason to get both tools. Both tools will allow you to create new databases (databasii?). So, you could create a separate database for each site, and that will accomplish the same thing that you are talking about.

Really, they are both fine tools. However, with PO2, I think the ball swung into the PO camp. Whatever the case, the competition is great because the net outcome will be improved tools anyway you slice it. One thing that I think would be really cool is if the PAHUD guy added support for PO (*hint,hint*). There are some features that it provides that are not in PO's overlay, like right-clicking on player to get the real-time stats. That stuff is available in office from the live-tracker window, but the right-click stats of PAHUD are really nice... But I digress /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Nicodemus]

The continued competition is great, but PT has the vast majority of users and is WAY ahead on poker room support (and will very likely stay that way in both respects). PO (the new version) is a fine piece of software and for those who play on the iPoker network, PO is the only option at present - but PT is just way, way ahead in so many ways (including what you might think of as plugin development).

The large ongoing community of PT users also ensures that it will receive more attention from Pat development-wise than PO, and more referrals. Additionally, PT being $20 cheaper (at present) almost guarantees that more casual, less informed players will opt for PT ahead of PO which gives it even more of an advantage as regards future user base.

In the end, any poker player worth his salt should really own both of these products and figure out which is best for him, $130 for the pair is really not very much to spend.

Nicodemus.

[sk8erboy1]

PT used to be ahead, PO2 is actually ahead in a number of ways now. The replayer is much nicer in PO, you can filter your stats based on situations (such as top pair on the flop), the live stats is faster, you can replay a portion of your graph, and so fort. Not to mention the fact the PO is A LOT easier to set up and looks like a real software.

[Overdrive]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention the fact the PO is A LOT easier to set up and looks like a real software.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true. Poker Office is SO much easier to use and set up. You don't have to tweak it like you do Pokertracker. I tried using Pokertracker on Stars and I had to go through the whole long setup thing posted about in the pokertracker forum. But to use Pokeroffice on Stars all I had to do was click the "start live tracker" button and that was it. Pokertracker looks and acts like it was designed in 1984 on a Commodore 64 while Pokeroffice looks and works like it was designed today.

The only thing Pokeroffice needs is to support more sites, that's the only downside about Pokeroffice for the time being - in all other aspects they are superior to Pokertracker in every way.

[IDN101]

[ QUOTE ]

Pokertracker looks and acts like it was designed in 1984 on a Commodore 64 while Pokeroffice looks and works like it was designed today.


[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your point, but PT is just a tool. It does what it says on the tin. I don't need it to look nice.

Regards,
Ian

[Albert Silver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pokertracker looks and acts like it was designed in 1984 on a Commodore 64 while Pokeroffice looks and works like it was designed today.


[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your point, but PT is just a tool. It does what it says on the tin. I don't need it to look nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't so much about looking nice, as it is about user-friendliness, AKA GUI design. I mean, I've made a nice profit by being hired to teach a few players how to set it up and use it (despite my willingness to just take them through a few steps via phone), and in the case of a couple of pros, got to hang out and watch them play with their inside commentary. Note, I consider that a solid part of the 'profit'.

I agree that when one has a lot of functions and a number of things to grasp, a learning curve is inevitable, but the steepness of that curve often depends on the software design. I'm not going to go about bashing PT, since I think it is a fantastic piece of software, but will say that I do think PO is better designed in that aspect. I have worked as a GUI designer, and say this not just from a user point of view, but also a technical aspect. It's just an opinion mind you.

I'm still discovering it, so won't go into greater depth just yet.

Albert

[Overdrive]

"I've made a nice profit by being hired to teach a few players how to set it up and use it"



That's part of the reason why I like Poker Office so much better. I didn't have to 'hire' anybody to teach me how to use it. Pokeroffice is very user freindly and there isn't a big learing curve like Pokertracker. You just download it and it's ready to go. You also don't have to buy all the extra add ons like Pokeracehud and that, Pokeroffice already comes with that fuction already built in.

[3CardMonty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pokertracker looks and acts like it was designed in 1984 on a Commodore 64 while Pokeroffice looks and works like it was designed today.


[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate your point, but PT is just a tool. It does what it says on the tin. I don't need it to look nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

It isn't so much about looking nice, as it is about user-friendliness, AKA GUI design. I mean, I've made a nice profit by being hired to teach a few players how to set it up and use it (despite my willingness to just take them through a few steps via phone), and in the case of a couple of pros, got to hang out and watch them play with their inside commentary. Note, I consider that a solid part of the 'profit'.

I agree that when one has a lot of functions and a number of things to grasp, a learning curve is inevitable, but the steepness of that curve often depends on the software design. I'm not going to go about bashing PT, since I think it is a fantastic piece of software, but will say that I do think PO is better designed in that aspect. I have worked as a GUI designer, and say this not just from a user point of view, but also a technical aspect. It's just an opinion mind you.

I'm still discovering it, so won't go into greater depth just yet.

Albert

[/ QUOTE ]I have been around IT for over 25 years and the new Poker Office is simply said a piece of artwork.

While it may be true that Poker Tracker delivers on the promise it is also true that getting to that truth is not as easy as 123, ABC, and it is with Poker Office.

Site support seems to me a thing of little concern since the bigger hurdles have allready been met by the Poker Office team and they were in the data handleing, stats, reports, and graphs.

In other words the engine needed to process collected data is there and working well. The process of acquiring additional site data and functionality is minimal to the work required to process it which has allready been done. I believe the Poker Office staff knows this and I believe this is why it has been delivered at this time with a promise for much more site support to come soon.

My prediction is that Poker Office will jump quickly ahead and pave new ground setting while setting the new standard for online statistics, data collection, reporting and online display.

You have to give some credibility to the useability factor of both products. If you can't use it without help, or at all, then you simply CAN'T USE IT. Poker Office seems to have overcome this User Interface (UI) issue.

As of this writing I believe having both software products is a must for serious players wanting an edge up and insight into the future of this type of software.

Monty

[Our House]

I don't know anything about PO but I'm about to try it out now just for a few of the features mentioned here.

Concerning PT, it's hands down THE BEST $55 I've ever spent in my life.

Monty,

I can assure you are in the minority with your experience. So much that I don't believe you (sorry, no personal offense intended against your character /images/graemlins/frown.gif ). Pat is the Mother Theresa of software support. That man is unmatched by anyone in the world when it comes to courtesy, service and reliability.

Just my $0.02

[excession]

I just don't see this so-called 'edge' that PO2 has - you have to compare PO2 to PT+PAHUD

On any rational assessment PO2 still falls far short of PT+PAHUD in terms of real-time play as it gives you far less information on your opponents' play.

I used it for 90 minutes last night on one of its recommended sites and it was like playin blind compared to using PT+PAHUD.

Nor in terms of post-play analysis have I seen anything it can do that can't be done by querying the PT database (although PO2 front end means PO2 is easier to use in this area)

So it seems to have far less real-time play functionality but look prettier?

I've no axe to grind either way but the comments of some PO2 fanbois in this thread seem so misleading that I don't think they can go without challenge..

[excession]

One caveat on the above having played some more is that there are tabs available that let you see how your opponents play specific hands pre-flop and types of hoildings on the flop - the problems with using this are the amount of data you need to get good stats on opponents for revealed hands will be huge and there is a lot of stuff to sift thru if you are trying to do it in real time.

That said - I can imagine it would be very handy post play for making notes on opponents without having to manually review each of their hands..

[Albert Silver]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't see this so-called 'edge' that PO2 has - you have to compare PO2 to PT+PAHUD

On any rational assessment PO2 still falls far short of PT+PAHUD in terms of real-time play as it gives you far less information on your opponents' play.

I used it for 90 minutes last night on one of its recommended sites and it was like playin blind compared to using PT+PAHUD.

Nor in terms of post-play analysis have I seen anything it can do that can't be done by querying the PT database (although PO2 front end means PO2 is easier to use in this area)

So it seems to have far less real-time play functionality but look prettier?

I've no axe to grind either way but the comments of some PO2 fanbois in this thread seem so misleading that I don't think they can go without challenge..

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked PT. A lot. Recommended it to a lot of people. Then, despite having converted the base to PostgreSQL, the base became an absolute nightmare in slow response. It would take several minutes to display various stats. Do enough of that, and no matter the quality of the info, you begin to look for alternatives. I should point out I didn't use PAHUD or any overlay. PokerOffice, with its new version, was an obvious candidate so I downloaded the program to try it.

It's true the interface is much better designed, but that alone wouldn't convince me. The fact that it supports MySQL 4.1, and soon will support 5.0 (which reputedly is much faster still) on the other hand <u>is</u> a selling point. Does PT have more essential info (info that I want and use) than PO? To be honest, if it does, I haven't found it. The *only* thing I don't have is a quick summary of my monthly financial results. That doesn't mean I can't see how I did per tournament (I play SNGs as you may have guessed), per day per week, or per month, but there is no single view summary showing each month side-by-side. However, in their forums, the developers announced that more advanced bookkeeping functions are on the way. If you're a ring game payer, it will show you the usual stats of $ per 100BB, etc.

Its playback of hands is far better than that of PT in my opinion. Beyond the obvious issue of graphics, which does make replaying more pleasant, it will also overlay the players with the same stats you would get if you had been playing live with an overlay. In other words, when judging a hand, you'll immediately see the database's stats overlayed. you'll also see the various odds to improve your hand, including the type of hand you might improve to and the odds to reach a playable hand by the turn and/or by the river. Granted I could figure this out on my own, just as I could research the stats of each player, but PO does this up front for each hand. I can customize this overlay, add subsequent notes to a player, and even have these player notes appear in the overlay when I play live.

I also enjoyed the multiple graphs PO has, some of which are standard, and some which you can customize. You can customize up to 3 different graphs at once to compare their values. All graphs are interactive, so clicking on specific points allows one a closer look.

Another item I like a lot is the HandAnalysis tab, showing how one did when faced with various situations such as GutShotStrDraw, Low/MediumPocketPair, TopPair/LowKicker, etc. It will not only tell me my profitability, but also my usual reaction in each situation, such as CheckFold% and how much I won or lost, CheckCall% and T$Won, CheckRaise%, Bet%, Fold, Call, and Raise. This is invaluable to help plug specific holes in one's game. Naturally, one can filter the games for those situations and play them over.

So those are a few of the things I specifically enjoy about PO. So far I have no regrets about my purchase. I do have a question for you, as you said you felt blind using the overlay, a function I used but once to see it in action: what were the missing values you missed so much and weren't able to customize to the overlay?

Albert

[excession]

From my first impressions (and I emphasise that's what they are) PO2 is probably an easier and very possibly better tool to use for post-play analysis of your own and opponents play.

However in the critical area of real-time display of table stats (both your own and other players') PT+PAHUD still seems to be far ahead.

I have up Vp$iP, PFR (which I assume are readily available in PO2's HUD too).
I also have up aggression frequency (the overall aggression stat designed by PA Josh and AP10 - much better than old-style aggression factor), cold call PFR %, continuation bet frequency, , call flop %, folds on flop %, raise flop%, check raise %, overall winnings/losses and the icons (including Xtra-loose, Calling Station, Showdown Muppet, Ultra Aggressive and Weak-Tightie categories based on my NL autorates rebalanced for 6 max by Trodgers.

The icons are incredibly handy for fast table selection.

Some of it may be just that I haven't got a handle on the PO2 HUD and that the site I'm using (Noble) seems to insist on separate game-time type windows for PO2 stats rather than a HUD, but to me it looks like there is currently a large utility deficit to catch up for PO2 in the HUD/autorate area..

[Larrel]

So I just bought PokerTracker and PokerAce HUD over PokerOffice and thought I would share my reasons in no particular order.
<ul type="square"> No UB Support for PO VERY configurable PAHUD Community support for PT is large I HATE how PO takes control of Stars chat I was more familiar with PT at the time [/list]

I almost went with PO though due to the great UI and the charts.

Well those are my reasons FWIW.

[3CardMonty]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know anything about PO but I'm about to try it out now just for a few of the features mentioned here.

Concerning PT, it's hands down THE BEST $55 I've ever spent in my life.

Monty,

I can assure you are in the minority with your experience. So much that I don't believe you (sorry, no personal offense intended against your character /images/graemlins/frown.gif ). Pat is the Mother Theresa of software support. That man is unmatched by anyone in the world when it comes to courtesy, service and reliability.

Just my $0.02

[/ QUOTE ]

Your entitled to your opinion and I don't expect you to know what happened so all is fine with me. Draw what ever conclusion you like and I'll stand my ground. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

What I ran into was a far cry away from courtesy, or support. If it was reliably wrong is another issue I don't have enough information to answer. Do they do that all the time? Who knows but I can assure you it was a far cry from Saint hood. Maybe they just had a bad evening but to not acknowledge a wrong does not make a right. So naturally I continue to have reservations about any company who does not value a customer.

[patk]

[ QUOTE ]
I HATE how PO takes control of Stars chat

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that is annoying, but on the postive side, it allows you to mine stats without sitting in. A very worthwhile tradeoff, IMO.

[excession]

I think that is specifically against the Stars TOS though..isn't that why Starpsy got canned?

[patk]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that is specifically against the Stars TOS though..isn't that why Starpsy got canned?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not against the TOS. Starspy was just a datamining app. that allowed you to monitor any number of tables you wanted, that's all it did. Office actually uses the HH window to calculate odds and track the action while you're playing since the HH file doesn't get updated until after the hand is over. The "data gathering" is a (positive) side effect, but that's not it's prime purpose. Also, you can't replay observed hands. The number of windows allowed open by office is limited to 8 for multi-tabling. I do think, though, that if Office allowed any number of windows to be open and monitor them, then Stars would object. Just my opinion. Anyhow, stars doesn't object to it. Office is explicitly listed by Stars as "allowed software".
http://www.pokerstars.com/prohibited_programs.html

[ddubois]

Has anyone looked at Poker Manager (http://www.pokermgr.com/) and might be able to offer some reviews? It sounds like a pretty compelling alternative to PT or PO.

I think I might locked into PT regardless because my affiliate wants a monthly PokerGrapher screenshot.

[slimbob]

For those who play 1-Table tournaments (SNG) at Stars which program is better?

Best regards
slimbob

[Mogobu The Fool]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Monty,

I can assure you are in the minority with your experience. So much that I don't believe you (sorry, no personal offense intended against your character /images/graemlins/frown.gif ). Pat is the Mother Theresa of software support. That man is unmatched by anyone in the world when it comes to courtesy, service and reliability.

Just my $0.02

[/ QUOTE ]

Your entitled to your opinion and I don't expect you to know what happened so all is fine with me. Draw what ever conclusion you like and I'll stand my ground. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

What I ran into was a far cry away from courtesy, or support. If it was reliably wrong is another issue I don't have enough information to answer. Do they do that all the time? Who knows but I can assure you it was a far cry from Saint hood. Maybe they just had a bad evening but to not acknowledge a wrong does not make a right. So naturally I continue to have reservations about any company who does not value a customer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got to chime in here. . . Monty, YOUR experience is BY FAR the exception to the rule. I'm in contact with a significant number of people, all of them PT users, and all have had a positive experience dealing with Pat and PT support. The only complaint I've heard is that, for a few people, the processes of setting things up are too complex for their computer knowledge, and they needed someone to help them hands-on -- but these same people had no complaints about Pat or the service. They just wanted hands-on help which they knew the software author couldn't possibly offer to all users.

Pat is well-known to be prompt, courteous, and professional, and certainly has the largest installed user base of any poker data application. You don't build that kind of reputation on a large user base being the kind of person you describe. In fact, in a large user base, it's easy to get a BAD reputation by making a very few mistakes, because offended people quickly become a vocal majority. In fact, this has NOT happened; Pat and his service are highly regarded.

His reputation is so strong that I can not accept your claim without seeing copies of the actual posts and messages that went back and forth. To the degree that I can believe there's any truth in your statements, I wonder what the "missing piece of the puzzle" is, because it is certainly nonsense on the surface of it. Seriously, he's got THAT kind of credibility, and I believe the vast majority of 2+2'ers will agree with me.

[Mogobu The Fool]

All that having been said, I wanted to note that I'm not weighing in on the PO vs PT thing. . .

For "looke and feel" and "ease of use," PO seems to win. For "depth of features" and "extensibility with 3rd party apps", PT seems to win.

For some people, being able to add their choice of HUD and graphing software is king. For others, not needing to add them is king.

"We're all individuals."

[langley11]

[ QUOTE ]
For "looke and feel" and "ease of use," PO seems to win. For "depth of features" and "extensibility with 3rd party apps", PT seems to win.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree, PO2 has more advanced features than PT, the filter and possibility to zoom in on graphs in PO2 rocks.

[tinhat]

[ QUOTE ]

Seriously, he's got THAT kind of credibility, and I believe
(all - 1) 2+2'ers will agree with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[Mogobu The Fool]

(all - 1) = "vast majority"

[3CardMonty]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Monty,

I can assure you are in the minority with your experience. So much that I don't believe you (sorry, no personal offense intended against your character /images/graemlins/frown.gif ). Pat is the Mother Theresa of software support. That man is unmatched by anyone in the world when it comes to courtesy, service and reliability.

Just my $0.02

[/ QUOTE ]

Your entitled to your opinion and I don't expect you to know what happened so all is fine with me. Draw what ever conclusion you like and I'll stand my ground. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

What I ran into was a far cry away from courtesy, or support. If it was reliably wrong is another issue I don't have enough information to answer. Do they do that all the time? Who knows but I can assure you it was a far cry from Saint hood. Maybe they just had a bad evening but to not acknowledge a wrong does not make a right. So naturally I continue to have reservations about any company who does not value a customer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got to chime in here. . . Monty, YOUR experience is BY FAR the exception to the rule. I'm in contact with a significant number of people, all of them PT users, and all have had a positive experience dealing with Pat and PT support. The only complaint I've heard is that, for a few people, the processes of setting things up are too complex for their computer knowledge, and they needed someone to help them hands-on -- but these same people had no complaints about Pat or the service. They just wanted hands-on help which they knew the software author couldn't possibly offer to all users.

Pat is well-known to be prompt, courteous, and professional, and certainly has the largest installed user base of any poker data application. You don't build that kind of reputation on a large user base being the kind of person you describe. In fact, in a large user base, it's easy to get a BAD reputation by making a very few mistakes, because offended people quickly become a vocal majority. In fact, this has NOT happened; Pat and his service are highly regarded.

His reputation is so strong that I can not accept your claim without seeing copies of the actual posts and messages that went back and forth. To the degree that I can believe there's any truth in your statements, I wonder what the "missing piece of the puzzle" is, because it is certainly nonsense on the surface of it. Seriously, he's got THAT kind of credibility, and I believe the vast majority of 2+2'ers will agree with me.

[/ QUOTE ]
As stated above you're entitled to your opinion.

If it makes any difference to you I have never said the software wasn't any good. It is somewhat difficult to traverse but I would expect that for a product which has been modified and added to as much as PT has been.

As of this writing I have both. I also like both for different reasons which are explained in this thread by many.

As for who did what on PT's end who knows, there is more than one mod and I have not named an individual on this but just stated the facts as they occured. All I know is that it did happen and it certainly rubbed me wrong.

PT has forum archives, im sure, so they can come here and post them if they want to. I have no problem with that.

I will say this, as of this writing there have been no further problems with the PT crew. Hopefully it will remain that way. I like anyone else would like to be able to use what I have and get help when and if needed. The last thing I expect is any kind of special treatment good or bad.

As time goes on I will be able to tell you more about my experience with PT and the group at the site. As for now I am trying to approach this simply from a user perspective.

Monty

[stylemaster1]

Hello, 1st time poster here. Was gonna do the "Hi, I'm new and this is why I love poker" post, but wanted to make my first one more meaningful....so,

Ive been looking at PT for a few weeks on the trial, got my 1000 hands, just about to buy it and see this thread last nite. Read the whole thread, go to PokerOffice to read up on it, and saw one thing that caused me to want to post on this thread......

As a new online player, PT looks like a "down the road" really kick ass program. I can sorta use some of the features now, but at my experience level, alot of it is over my head. The one feature that pokeroffice says it has is "see Mucked hands", after the showdown you get to see the other players down cards....to me as a newbie, that would go MILES more towards understanding the "player" side of online poker! Thought and thought all nite, couldnt get that one feature outta my head......man, if I know what the other guys were going to showdown with, that alone would be worth signing up to get PokerOffice. Am I overreacting??? Am I on to something here? It just feels that would be an invaluable tool for players still getting their feet wet. Thanks and look forward to becoming a regular poster here.

[Mogobu The Fool]

Several third-party HUDs available to use with PT show you mucked cards, as well. It is very valuable, but it is not the deciding factor between the two platforms.

[goodguy_1]

So you are agreeing that PO can be used as a datamining app. for up to 8 Stars tables?

Anybody datamine Stars or other sites using Poker Office? What sites?

what I would do is datamine using PO then somehow import the hands into a dm db in PokerTracker-anyone try this?

[curious123]

[ QUOTE ]
Look everybody, the undeniable fact is that PokerTracker is slow as balls. The question is if PokerOffice is also slow as balls. I think the answer is yes

[/ QUOTE ]

Compared to PokerManager, they're both (even w/ SQL) slow as balls.

[Lawman]

[ QUOTE ]
Several third-party HUDs available to use with PT show you mucked cards

[/ QUOTE ]

..including PAHUD which is very good, very cheap and like PT comes with very good support.

How valuable a feature this is depends on where you play. At least Prima (Absolute?) does not reveal losing showdown hands if the "muck losing hands" feature is ticked.

On the PT support issue, I can only echo what has already been said: my experience is that Pat answers emails promptly and helpfully, resolves support issues quickly and fixes bugs almost as soon as they are reported. To be honest I don't know how he remains so courteous when he gets asked how to do something for the millionth time which is posted on the FAQs, or could easily be found in a search.

By now you must realise that your negative experience of PT support was a rare aberration: in forums such as these, criticism is much more readily given than praise (see the Bet365 threads). The fact that so many people are prepared to support Pat is significant.