Andrew Black WSOP 05 Final Table Ax Mystery Hand

[DoubleTwentyOne]

I'm sure everybody has seen the WSOP 05 final table coverage by now. There was one hand in particular in which Andrew Black makes a call on the river against Aaron Kanter's King's full with an Ax hand. We never get to see what his other hole card was. Has anybody heard Andrew make reference to this hand in some interview?
Players will often answer such questions when asked during an interview. For example, when they were down to the final 27 players, there was a hand between Mike Matusow and Sean Sheikhan where Sheikhan thinks long and hard about his hand before folding pre-flop and then slams his hand in visible anger when the flop comes. We then proceed to watch Mike re-raise the his opponent all-in on an A9x board. We never get to see Mike's cards but in a later interview for Cardplayer magazine Matusow tells us he held QJo.
I'm pretty sure I wasn't the only one who was curious when the hand between Black and Kanter first aired. I was just wondering if by chance Black talked about that hand openly in some random interview. From the play of the hand, it was unlikely he held AK, as he probably would've been a lot more aggressive with TPTK against a player like Kanter. From the hands they showed in the program, Black was routinely making marginal (but correct) calls throughout the entire main event. Was he crazy enough to call 2M on the river with A high?

[Snarf]

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Was he crazy enough to call 2M on the river with A high?

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If by crazy, you mean "smart" when you're getting close to 8:1 on you're money against a player like Kantor - then yes. I think he called ace high...maybe he had like 3rd pair or some dumb crap.

I heard this hand as it happened live on cardplayer...and I was uber-curious what the heck Black had! I laughed when his hand didn't even show up on the hole cam! I waited like 6 months for that hand!

Theres no interview that I'm aware of - but hopefully someone smarter will respond.

[4 High]

I dont see any way he had less then AK or AA. Yes he was hyper Aggressive but he never put in that much money with a bad hand that was not the best. Obviously he didnt think Kanter was that strong no matter what he had, but I dont see Him getting to the River with less then AK or AA.

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I dont see any way he had less then AK or AA. Yes he was hyper Aggressive but he never put in that much money with a bad hand that was not the best. Obviously he didnt think Kanter was that strong no matter what he had, but I dont see Him getting to the River with less then AK or AA.

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I remember when Kanter flipped the cards Black had a sort of bemused "wow, that sucks" expression. I was pretty sure he had AK after that. Not that I know anything, but I think if Black where calling with Ace high he wouldn't have looked as dissapointed.

[DoubleTwentyOne]

OK, I just reviewed the action from the Cardplayer live coverage show. To the best of my knowledge, here is what happened in the hand play-by-play:

With the blinds at $75,000-$150,000,
Black opened for $550,000
Kanter reraised $1M more to $1,550,000
Black smooth-called

Flop comes Kd-5h-3c rainbow

Kanter bet $1M
Black immediately raised $3M to $4M total
Kanter smooth-called

The turn comes 3h Board now reads ( Kd-5h-3c-3h )

Kanter checks
Black pauses and asks for a chip count on Kanter, to which Kanter replies he has around $6M left. Black then proceeds to check behind.

River comes 8C Board now reads ( Kd-5h-3c-3h-8c )

Kanter bets $2M
Black quickly calls

Kanter shows K-K for a full house, Kings full of Three's
Black genuinely looks surprised and mucks

Final Pot: $15M

Like I stated before, judging from the play of the hand, it appears EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that Black held one of 2 powerhouse hands (AA or AK) that most people speculate he had.
IMHO, Black (who was relentlessly aggressive at the final table) would have definitely re-raised a player like Kanter pre-flop with AA or AK, as either of those two hands 5 handed would've been an automatic re-raise pre-flop. Add in the facts that
1)he was chip leader by a wide margin (35% of chips in play)
2)he was playing ultra aggressive
3)he couldn't give much credit to a raise from Kanter
And we can safely arrive at the conclusion that he would at least 3-bet with AA or AK.
Additionally, with AA or AK I don't believe Black would've only smooth called on the river because
1)judging from his reaction after the call, we can assume he definitely did not put Kanter on top set.
2)Therefore if Black had given credit to Kanter for having a slightly worse King (KQ,KJ...etc) he could've easily gotten paid by raising with AK or AA on a rainbow board with no flush or straight possibilities.

So, with all of that said, let's try to make a reasonable guess as to what hands Black could've had. I remember in the telecast ESPN revealed he had Ax, with the A being Ah.

IMHO, the most logical hands Black could've held were either A5 (3rd pair), A8 (2nd pair), or Ahxh (nut flush draw on the turn). And out of these, I would reason the most likely holding would be Ah8x, possibly the Ah8h. It seemed to me that a super-LAG like Black would've bet again on the turn with A5 to see where he was at in the hand. From his check on the turn I'm guessing he slowed down and took the free card to the nut draw after Kanter smooth-called on the flop. Upon backing his way into second pair on the river, he decided that 6.5 to 1 (13M in the pot, 2M to call) was just too good to pass up to see what Kanter had.

[doc_1982]

I'm almost certain Black said in an interview later that he had AA.

[SEABEAST]

I read it more as him thinking 'wow my read sure was miles off...'.

After that hand his body language really seemed to suggest that he'd dropped off in confidence a lot.

Although I guess it *could* have been because he took a beat and actually had a hand, I think he was probably calling down with A high due to a conbination of read and the pot odds.

If anything not putting any more money in than he did with AK would have built his confidence, not stripped it, and it really looked to me like a part of him had given up after that hand.

Not only would he have probably played AK more aggressively, if he did in fact have AK he would have probably been happy when he saw the KK flip up, rather than surprised. I honestly don't think he had a pair.

[4 High]

The more i think about it the more im sure he had AA and the call of Kanters reraise preflop was to trap kanter on the flop. Once Kanter called his big reraise on the flop he may have sensed he was in trouble thus the slow down on the turn and the call on the end.

[SEABEAST]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Black gave Kanter as much credit as you seem to think. Kanter was playing fairly poor poker in general and lucking out quite a bit. It was also only 5 handed. I think Black tried to outplay him and got caught with his pants down, and that's why he couldn't believe it when Kanter flipped over the KK. This was a guy raising A7 allin preflop, etc. I really doubt Black could have put in so few chips on 4th and 5th street with AA, and if he did it would only be because he very strongly suspected KK from a read, and he wouldn't have looked so legitimately shocked. I really think he felt like a fool for donking off so many chips when he was miles and miles behind, and the bet on the river was quite small in context so calling with say, AQ, AJ, etc wouldn't be that hard to believe at all.

[soah]

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The more i think about it the more im sure he had AA and the call of Kanters reraise preflop was to trap kanter on the flop. Once Kanter called his big reraise on the flop he may have sensed he was in trouble thus the slow down on the turn and the call on the end.

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It's not much of a trap if you don't expect any worse hands to put in money postflop against you. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Jeebus]

When i saw it I was sure he had AA, I saw it again and felt the same way.

[yaaaflow]

I agree on the read of him having AA or AK. He has position on Kanter post-flop, so there is no guarantee he would reraise preflop with either of those hands. When the action is checked to Black on the turn he's got a fairly strong hand in both cases - but if he bets now and kanter checkraises allin he's definitely pot committed himself and will definitely be playing for all 6m that Kanter has left. If Black checks behind the turn he can induce a bluff on the river which he can call, or bet for value if checked to.

[Snarf]

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I could be wrong, but I don't think Black gave Kanter as much credit as you seem to think. Kanter was playing fairly poor poker in general and lucking out quite a bit. It was also only 5 handed. I think Black tried to outplay him and got caught with his pants down, and that's why he couldn't believe it when Kanter flipped over the KK. This was a guy raising A7 allin preflop, etc. I really doubt Black could have put in so few chips on 4th and 5th street with AA, and if he did it would only be because he very strongly suspected KK from a read, and he wouldn't have looked so legitimately shocked. I really think he felt like a fool for donking off so many chips when he was miles and miles behind, and the bet on the river was quite small in context so calling with say, AQ, AJ, etc wouldn't be that hard to believe at all.

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this is 100% my theory - though double 21's analysis is right on with ....pretty much what you said too...

Both those posts signal what I believe to be most likely.

AA? AK?

Against the laggy/loose Kantor? Thats like the nuts dude!
I just don't see a way - pending an EPIC read that the uber-aggressive seriuos chip leader Black doesn't get all the chips in at some point with either of those hands.

and if he's unlucky enough to have a run-in in that spot...he can shrug it off and keep playing.