cap or call

[MRBAA]

2-4, 3-handed game with an unknown and a thinking LAG, who is the villain in this hand.

I've played a bit with this guy, and he's just too LAG to be a winner overall, but head up and short handed he is a tough opponent. He definitely does try to play big pots with big hands, but it's tough to lay down against him since he also bluffs and semi-bluffs alot. He is capable of laying down when you play back.

Anyway, in this hand I start with (85)8. Third player brings in, I raise, LAG reraies with Js in the door, third player folds, I call.

Fourth:

Hero (85)84
LAG (xx)JsKs

LAG bets, I call

5th

Hero (85)848
LAG (xx)JsKsAc

I check, he bets, I raise, he three bets and I...

[CarlosChadha]

your check raise with a paired doorcard screams trips, so his 3 bet screams a str8 of higher trips. I'd just call down to the river, hoping that he is overplaying 2 pair, or a pair and a draw. If you fill on the river, you raise and he 3 bets, again I'd only call.

There is an outside chance that he think you are semi bluffing is 3 betting as a semi bluff + free card on 6th, but at 2/4 I doubt many are cabable of doing this (even at a higher limit such a play could be considered spewing if you didn't have a strong read that your opponent didn't have a full house).

Carlos

[MRBAA]

Your read is too restrictive. He can well read me for a semi-bluff with two pair or even a high flush draw that has made a pair. In turn I can read him for a big hand or a semi-bluff of some sort.

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
Your read is too restrictive. He can well read me for a semi-bluff with two pair or even a high flush draw that has made a pair. In turn I can read him for a big hand or a semi-bluff of some sort.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, assuming both player have a lot of history with each other and are thinking on a high level. This is the possibility that I touched on in my 2nd paragraph. I haven't seen much or any of this level of play at the 2/4 games online.

If this is the case, then I think it is a better idea to just call the 3 bet and bet 6th to prevent giving a free card assuming that your opponent doesn't catch a flush card, a straight card or an open pair on 6th

Carlos

[MRBAA]

Like I said, this guy doesn't have the self-control to be a winner overall, but he isn't an idiot and can be dangerous head up.

I took your line, Carlos, and called fifth. I paired my 4 on sixth, so my hand was (58)8484. I bet and he folded. I don't think he'd have laid down a made str8 or trips there, so I felt like I missed a bet on fifth.

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
Like I said, this guy doesn't have the self-control to be a winner overall, but he isn't an idiot and can be dangerous head up.

I took your line, Carlos, and called fifth. I paired my 4 on sixth, so my hand was (58)8484. I bet and he folded. I don't think he'd have laid down a made str8 or trips there, so I felt like I missed a bet on fifth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been in this situation many times, and have had similar misgivings. As I've matured as a player, I've come to the conclusion that the amount I lose by capping with the worst hand outweight the amount I win win I am ahead, taking into account all subsequent betting rounds. This is a pretty emperical and inexact conclusion, that is extremely player dependant; I wouldn't be suprised if I later expand or revise my thinking on this subject.

Carlos

[MRBAA]

Now as I look I'm wondering if I should have checked sixth when I hit my full house. It's very possible he's drawing dead here, and also possible he'll bet if I check, thinking I may have three pair or just be paying my board. Hmmm.

[frappeboy]

Carlos:

I think you have been playing high stakes too long to know what goes on at these lower limit tables. People just don't think they just hit buttons. I cap here everytime without thinking, if he has me beat, i'm just gonna have to outdraw him. If he raises me again on 6th that's the only time i ever slow down (unless I fill like what happened this hand).

[MRBAA]

This guy is better than that. His basic style, as I've come to see it, is to be aggro and take control but only actually play big pots and put in lots of action with big hands. Of course, he's prone to getting caught up in his own b.s. and the usual knowing you-knowing me back and forth semi-bluffing. Actually, the folks who play heads up or short regularly are pretty different than the usual full table 2-4 people. They tend to be much more aggressive but also much more thoughtful. I've seen a number who are borderline fish with five or more players at the table, but pretty tough heads up.

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
People just don't think they just hit buttons. I cap here everytime without thinking

[/ QUOTE ]

I found this part of your post rather amusing...you sure know how to prove a point;-)

Seriously though, I've only been playing poker for 2 years and 9 months...I haven't forgotten what low limit players are like. Furthermore there are huge fish at every limit who play like the average 2/4 player, just fewer of them the higher you go. Lastly, I've played about 500 hands of 2/4-5/10 in the last month and I just finished playing a $5 buy-in game with my roomates 10 minutes ago. That should be enough evidence to debunk your first statement.

I don't totally disagree with the fact that since this isn't my normal game, that my answer might be somewhat biased by my play at higher limits. But I am very confident that this is a decision that requires at least *some* thought, as evidenced by the exchange between me and the OP.

I'd also like to note that everyone opponent is always thinking SOMETHING (barring misclicks). Whether that something is rational, emotional, based on wanting to win money, or based on wanting to take an exciting risk is key to making the highest +EV play against them.

Carlos

[frappeboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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People just don't think they just hit buttons. I cap here everytime without thinking


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I found this part of your post rather amusing...you sure know how to prove a point;-)

Seriously though, I've only been playing poker for 2 years and 9 months...I haven't forgotten what low limit players are like. Furthermore there are huge fish at every limit who play like the average 2/4 player, just fewer of them the higher you go. Lastly, I've played about 500 hands of 2/4-5/10 in the last month and I just finished playing a $5 buy-in game with my roomates 10 minutes ago. That should be enough evidence to debunk your first statement.

I don't totally disagree with the fact that since this isn't my normal game, that my answer might be somewhat biased by my play at higher limits. But I am very confident that this is a decision that requires at least *some* thought, as evidenced by the exchange between me and the OP.

I'd also like to note that everyone opponent is always thinking SOMETHING (barring misclicks). Whether that something is rational, emotional, based on wanting to win money, or based on wanting to take an exciting risk is key to making the highest +EV play against them.

Carlos

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I guess I didn't say that in the correct fashion.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyways, you may be right about just calling, on 2nd thought, I'd almost always just call in a live B&M game, but online I'd always cap. When playing B&M not long ago I made a similar mistake against a major fish and looked like a fool (and lost some extra money). People are just less likely to go crazy like that when they are playing live.

Online is a different story, it's much easier for some one to lose control and go with their "hunch" that their opponent does have the hand. If they are wrong, they don't have to deal with the social reprecussions that they do when playing in a B&M cardroom.

The last point I'd like to make is that it's so interesting how you can make 2 different plays based on the location of the game. It just goes to show you how complex the game of poker really can be.

[Spencer C]

hey, kind of off topic, but what site did this hand come from?

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
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People just don't think they just hit buttons. I cap here everytime without thinking


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I found this part of your post rather amusing...you sure know how to prove a point;-)

Seriously though, I've only been playing poker for 2 years and 9 months...I haven't forgotten what low limit players are like. Furthermore there are huge fish at every limit who play like the average 2/4 player, just fewer of them the higher you go. Lastly, I've played about 500 hands of 2/4-5/10 in the last month and I just finished playing a $5 buy-in game with my roomates 10 minutes ago. That should be enough evidence to debunk your first statement.

I don't totally disagree with the fact that since this isn't my normal game, that my answer might be somewhat biased by my play at higher limits. But I am very confident that this is a decision that requires at least *some* thought, as evidenced by the exchange between me and the OP.

I'd also like to note that everyone opponent is always thinking SOMETHING (barring misclicks). Whether that something is rational, emotional, based on wanting to win money, or based on wanting to take an exciting risk is key to making the highest +EV play against them.

Carlos

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I guess I didn't say that in the correct fashion.. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyways, you may be right about just calling, on 2nd thought, I'd almost always just call in a live B&M game, but online I'd always cap. When playing B&M not long ago I made a similar mistake against a major fish and looked like a fool (and lost some extra money). People are just less likely to go crazy like that when they are playing live.

Online is a different story, it's much easier for some one to lose control and go with their "hunch" that their opponent does have the hand. If they are wrong, they don't have to deal with the social reprecussions that they do when playing in a B&M cardroom.

The last point I'd like to make is that it's so interesting how you can make 2 different plays based on the location of the game. It just goes to show you how complex the game of poker really can be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting and relevant points. Thanks for putting some real thought into this post. I'd also be less likely to cap live, for the reasons you stated. I disagree that the factors you listed are enough to turn the call into a cap online because from my experience the magnitude of the factors you listed is not large enough to overcome the other relevant factors discussed in my earlier post. I could see what you say being true for people with abnormally low self esteem or fear of social conflict, but not for the average player.

I'll take you off of my insta-flame list now:-)

Carlos

[cheer]

[ QUOTE ]
I cap here everytime without thinking,

[/ QUOTE ]

CAP!!! I play 2/4 a lot when i can't find a good 3/6 5/10 game and so many 2/4 players <u>overplay</u> their draws...he is a LAG right. I can see 90% of 2/4 LAGs cap 5th and 6th with (As Xs) and (Ts Xs) and (Qs Xs). I think it is a auto cap and lead on 6th. and I would only slow down if he hits good or raises my 6th.


P.S. all with only one dead spade. so I am pretty sure these would be higher because there probably is more then just one dead "good card"
.708 EV vs. (As 7s)
.697 EV vs. (Ts 7s)
.698 EV vs. (Qs 7s)

.363 EV vs made straight.
worst case senario Jh Jc .256 EV

[MRBAA]

I basically agree about B&amp;M vs. online. But the last two times I've played live (at Fox) I've been struck by how the wildness of online play seems now to be infecting live play. I saw more crazy plays in 5-10 stud and he than I can remember in the past, and from players I wouldn't have expected it from.