Is this way of viewing money healthy as a poker player?

[The Young Gun]

If you remember I posted a thread a while back asking whether or not you need to become disconnected from the value of money to become a successful player. The responses were varied but majority agreed a degree of disconnection was required.

Well I guess I got what I wished for and what I wanted to know is if my view of money is too extreme.

It seems the discsonnection has just recently surfaced as I find myself playing bigger and bigger games now that are out of my bankroll's range and actually winning. This has happened over a long period of hands and I feel as if the money does not matter anmoyre. It is a weird feeling that overcomes me as I begin playing and now it is not hard at all for me to put my money all in on a draw.

Mind you these acts of aggression are not reckless and I am not a maniac, but what I was wondering is how do you control it. In addition to me increased aggression (which I attribute to my success) I find myself flipping coins for money with friends juts out of pure boredom. I know this is not healthy but does it just come with the territory?

Sorry for such a disjointed post it is just hard for me to put this into perspective. I am only 18 and I do not want to develop a crippling habit once I leave poker. It seems that the higher I move up in the limits the more of an edge I can acquire if I play like the money mean snothing to me.

Is this healthy?

[Rolen]

I think I went through a similar experience. Same age, didn't need the money for much, took a 1K bankroll up to 50K in a few weeks by playing way over my head (50/100 NL HU at the peak of it). The money didn't mean anything to me at all.

Then I lost it. When I lost it, you can believe it meant something.

Now that I have uni accomodation + food bills to pay, I do not have the same detatchment. I'm sure you'll have a similar experience (though try not to lose it).

[mosquito]

If you are playing well, the thing you need to decide is how much risk to are willing to take with your bankroll. Then play at the appropriate limits/buyins except when taking reasonable shots. The risk you are willing to accept is really up to you, but most people are going to be somewhat conservative and not wanting to go broke.

Understanding your risk/reward scenarios will help you outside of poker. Just remember that you clearly don't want to take the same risks with your life, as with your bankroll.

[UncleSalty]

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Is this healthy?

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I think it depends. If it's no longer about money, you have to ask yourself from where you now get your enjoyment of the game? If it is the pure competition, knowing that you are outplaying your opponents, etc.. then I think that's healthy.

However, if you are no longer interested in winning for winnings sake, or viewing the game as intellectual stimulation, you need to seriously evaluate what your motivation is for playing above your bankroll.

I'm not questioning your skill or intelligence, but all of us who have studied the game know with certainty that variance is a statistical fact, and that even the best players in the world need to exercise smart bankroll management.

Be careful bro, and make sure you aren't playing such high limits because of the thrill it gives you. The coin-flip comment gives me concern.

Good luck,

Salty

[The Young Gun]

Yeah Salty the coin flips is kinda extreme and I am going to stop doing that. However, as for poker my main goal is mainly outplaying my opponents. I am driven to reducing my opponent to mincemeat!

[UncleSalty]

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Yeah Salty the coin flips is kinda extreme and I am going to stop doing that. However, as for poker my main goal is mainly outplaying my opponents. I am driven to reducing my opponent to mincemeat!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's good to hear. However, why do you think you're playing in games that are too big for your bankroll? With RB, bonus whoring, and some good luck you will be adequately bankrolled for those games soon enough. It would really suck if you go on a normal downswing and are actually forced to drop DOWN a level from what is currently appropriate. If it's about the competition, the size of the bet shouldn't matter.

If you're near the BR for the next level, then certainly it's ok to take some shots and see how you do. Just make sure you aren't putting too much of your stack at risk.

[The Young Gun]

Well I started playing .5/1 with only 400 because I felt the .25/.50 was boring me with the size of the bets. I am doing well at this level and now have over 1200 but it was that risk that I was worried about. It wasn't a big jump skill wise but I felt I could pull it off because of my skills.

[UncleSalty]

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Well I started playing .5/1 with only 400 because I felt the .25/.50 was boring me with the size of the bets. I am doing well at this level and now have over 1200 but it was that risk that I was worried about. It wasn't a big jump skill wise but I felt I could pull it off because of my skills.

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$400 is plenty for $0.50/$1.00. For full ring (10-handed) games you should have at least 300BB, so you are totally fine and not playing above your roll. At $1200 you could probably be playing $2/$4 limit or whatever the corresponding level for NL is. If you're playing shorthanded (5-max/6-max) then try to keep a minimum bankroll of 500BB.

Sounds like you're doing fine.

[Mr. Now]

Its interesting that you attribute aggression to success at poker, and not the other way around-- attributing success at poker to aggression.

A mere error in articulation, or something more?

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In addition to me increased aggression (which I attribute to my success)

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[The Young Gun]

No I found that as soon as I took the money out of my mind, my poker game became alot more aggressive overall. It should be noted that I am not spewing or acting like a maniac, but I do excercise power poker now that the money is nothing to me. It seems to have been replaced by a desire to conquer my opponents.

[raze]

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No I found that as soon as I took the money out of my mind, my poker game became alot more aggressive overall. It should be noted that I am not spewing or acting like a maniac, but I do excercise power poker now that the money is nothing to me. It seems to have been replaced by a desire to conquer my opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are losing grasp of the fact that you *should* be playing poker to maximize your profits, not just to dominate opponents. Domination should come in the form of a high BB/100 rate, not by "putting all your money in on a draw" as you stated above. You have to disregard the cash value of your chips, yes, but you must still use all of your mathematical logic & skill when you play.

BTW if you play above your bankroll or in negative-expectation games, you will ALWAYS eventually go broke. For example, the fact that you can turn 1k into 35k at roulette is COMPLETELY meaningless because the fundamental effect of this type of gamble is that you will not quit until you are broke. Same goes for constantly playing above your bankroll.

[StellarWind]

Are you truly disconnected from the value of money?

Or are you merely disconnected from the possibility of losing?

I see no mention of a downswing. Until your new outlook experiences some hard times it is hard to have any confidence in it.

You are ignoring bankroll requirements for the games you play in. That is objectively dangerous and a very negative consequence of your new outlook.

I am concerned that your willingness to play over your bankroll may be an indication that you have lost contact with reality, specifically the possibility of losing. Control is essential for a successful poker player and it cannot exist if you are not realistic. Sooner or later you will make bad choices and get into trouble. These choices could range from tactics to strategy: bad play decisions, reckless game selections, and squandering your winnings away from the table.

[KinkyKid]

Just skimmed the other posts. The coin flips is not upsetting at all. Every Sun/Mon/Superbowl people at offices all over are throwing in 5, 10, 50 dollars to buy squares that have two numbers. Then during the football games, they take the scores at 1st qtr, 2nd, 3rd and end. If the singles digit of each team matches the square you picked (the random square) you win a piece of the pot. Flipping coins is really no different. Now to the poker aspect...Someone mentioned no talk of downswings, you will get them and how you come through that will show your attitude towards money. Had a friend that thought he handled money very easily and seemed to not worry about it in poker. Til he hit his first 300+ BB downswing, in the midst of that, he grew timid. Not betting his cards because he "knew" they were going to suck out on him. After you go through the swings, let us know what you think of the money.

[RustyCJ]

I am very new to poker but I am a games player and I've always been good at anything I focused on and put time and thought into.

Poker has been much different for me because of the variance and unknowns. With games like chess it is very easy for me to look back and see where I went wrong.

With poker, I get upset when my aces lose to a flush draw who had the odds to call, however, I'm realizing I'm not going to win every hand, aces are going to win a large percentage of the time and I need to extract the most I can when I'm in a favorable situation for my hand.

So I'm trying to remove the "emotion" from the money, I am dealt my hand and I'm going to play that hand for FWIW. If I get a crappy flop, so be it, I'll raise the hand again preflop the next time as well.

The chips are merely a measure of my hand vs. my opponents.

[AlphaWice]

dude, if u play over your head you will eventually lose. The longer it takes, the harder its gonna be.

[Mr. Now]

Dominating all the individuals at the table begins with absolute control (domination) of the key player: self.

This applies to all details related to bankroll ratios, risk control and other execution rules you establish, customize and follow automatically-- with no exceptions.

Doing these things automatically allows you to focus much more energy on awareness of the opportunities created by the table and specific individuals. This is just the starting point of solid poker.

[vanHelsing]

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I am very new to poker...

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Reged: 18/12/03

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huh?

[StellarWind]

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I am very new to poker...

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Reged: 18/12/03

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huh?

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Not all the forums are devoted to poker.

[RustyCJ]

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I am very new to poker...

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Reged: 18/12/03

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huh?

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Well, I did play poker some in late 2003 and early 2004, however, I really only played about 20,000 hands or so. So yeah I reged 2 years ago but I only have a few months of poker experience thus far.

[_TKO_]

Lately, I've been getting more detached from money in general. This is because I now have enough money to cover my expenses, along with plenty of surplus for saving and spending. However, I don't look at any dollar amount and think of it as large or small: $2 can buy me breakfast; $10,000 cannot buy me a house.

Some quick management warnings:

1. Don't jeopardize 50% of your bankroll in a single game, as this will have a serious impact on your ability to drop to a comfortable limit. The more likely result after halving your bankroll is to continue playing above your bankroll until you bust.

2. In terms of non-BR money, you can be frivalous with your "luxury" money. All other money must go to your expenses and investments.

[rwanger]

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1. Don't jeopardize 50% of your bankroll in a single game,

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Um...you meant to follow that with "5% is a more reasonable amount". Right?

[_TKO_]

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1. Don't jeopardize 50% of your bankroll in a single game,

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Um...you meant to follow that with "5% is a more reasonable amount". Right?

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With a small bankroll, you could probably afford to take shots at up to 20%. My comment was more so addressed to not being ridiculous with your BR. The main idea is still to be able to drop to a comfort limit if necessary, and not way below.

[Peter Harris]

Remember it's not money, it's capital. Will a factory owner see their machines as worth $2bn and say "gee, i could feed a million families with that for a week", then sell up and quit the factory game?

Likewise, My $2k bankroll (yeah, i only play 2/4) isn't "money", it's capital. Without it, i can no longer make profit.

Learn to distinguish your bankroll from liquid assets, practice bankroll management, understand the difference between capital and real money and you should have a better perspective.

Regards,
Pete Harris

[_TKO_]

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Learn to distinguish your bankroll from liquid assets, practice bankroll management, understand the difference between capital and real money and you should have a better perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for a very interesting perspective on this.

[Peter Harris]

reading all the bloody economics works by Marx and Weber and all for my social anthropology degree has to be good for something, i guess.

And what better than poker?!

Pete