why all the suffering [Archive] - Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Lestat

12-24-2005, 12:19 AM

This is nothing... Wait until you see the torturous hell He has in store for the billions of people who somehow got it wrong.

What? You wouldn't treat your children that way?

I'm trying to imagine what my child could ever do to make me want to send them to a dungeonous hell so they could burn for eternity. Since I can't think of ANYTHING, I'd like to hear other people's criteria for buring your own children? How about if they didn't believe in you? What if they thought someone else was their father? Would that make you want to cause the little bugger to fry in hell for eternity?

Lestat

12-24-2005, 12:25 AM

While it's probably an over-talked about topic and there was probably a better (more polite) way to phrase it, I do think it's legitimate a question.

I also find it hard to reconcile all the suffering in the world with a loving god. Why is one family saved in a tornado, while another suffers tragic loss? The saved family often thanks God. What this this say to the other family?

BluffTHIS!

12-24-2005, 05:01 AM

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if 10 people tell me to stop posting i will.

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#2

Bataglin

12-24-2005, 07:48 AM

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Please stop posting.

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Why do you say this?

godBoy

12-24-2005, 07:55 AM

He doesn't send us to Hell, we choose it by not choosing Him. God can not allow sin into heaven so those who aren't made perfect can't stay for eternity.

I don't personally think people will burn for eternity in hell, all hell is, is complete seperation from God.
The torment is in seeing God, then being forced to leave.

hmkpoker

12-24-2005, 10:58 AM

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if 10 people tell me to stop posting i will.

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#2

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I'm really tempted to start a poll /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

mostsmooth

12-24-2005, 02:27 PM

Bigdaddydvo

12-24-2005, 02:35 PM

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can somebody explain to me why there is so much suffering in the world. what kind of god could just sit there and watch the pain that millions of people go through everyday. if god was not all powerful and he couldnt do anything about the suffering than i could understand. he created this crap hole that we live in. he made the world like this. how do u guys explain this.

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We are called to suffer in various ways. If the Son of God can suffer a torturous death being nailed to a cross, the rest of us don't get a pass in dealing with life's hardships. It is through our suffering and our own individual "crosses" that we are able to become closer to Him.

Riddick

12-24-2005, 03:29 PM

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can somebody explain to me why there is so much suffering in the world.

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To answer this question, perhaps you should first seek out the answer to why there is so much joy in the world.

Riddick

12-24-2005, 03:35 PM

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what kind of god could just sit there and watch the pain that millions of people go through everyday

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Were we not made in His image?

What exactly are you, or anyone else in this forum, forgoing in order to ease the pain and suffering that millions of people go through every day?

BCPVP

12-25-2005, 05:02 AM

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if 10 people tell me to stop posting i will.

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#2

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#3. There's no way you went to Catholic school.

Zak

12-25-2005, 10:42 AM

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To answer this question, perhaps you should first seek out the answer to why there is so much joy in the world.

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nh

Life is suffering; suffering is an illusion.

hashi92

12-25-2005, 12:30 PM

If God is all powerful, just, loving and morale. He created the heavens and earth. Why did he have to create evil or suffering. If my son for instance got caught playing with matches i would reprimand him. maybe punish him by taking away privliges. but i wouldn hold his hand over the stove to make him suffer for his indiscretion.

hashi92

12-25-2005, 12:32 PM

how exactly did you come to this conclusion.

hashi92

12-25-2005, 01:20 PM

Instead of berating me all the time why dont you teach and guide me. if you dont have anything nice to say dont say it.

BCPVP

12-25-2005, 04:40 PM

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how exactly did you come to this conclusion.

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It seems like you know almost nothing about major parts of Christianity. If you went to a religious school, you should have some knowledge about the answers to these questions but you seem clueless.

hashi92

12-25-2005, 05:18 PM

i know what the answers to these questions in religous terms are or would be but they dont seem logical to me.
im asking someone to explain how there religon can logically explain the above. the religous answers are usually somewhere along the line of 2 + 2 = 7. when i ask how can this be. the answer is always because the bible
says 2 + 2 = 7.

hashi92

12-25-2005, 05:23 PM

if i was an all powerful god i would eliminate all suffering and pain. i would basically know before hand when something bad was going to happen. therefore i could stop it before it happened.

hashi92

12-25-2005, 05:36 PM

basically when i ask these questions im saying if i were God what would i do. i would not let people suffer let alone my own son.

godBoy

12-25-2005, 10:23 PM

The world is made the way it is, because it was created not as utopia, there is a purpose for the planet. I think it pleases God seeing someone move forward in spite of pain and being a bigger person because of it. I think it pleases God, when given the oppurtunity to sin a person chooses to obey Him. If there were no alternative than to do what was right were would the freedom be? God allows people to do as they like....well not always.. but we do have free will.

Let's not foget that most of the pain and suffering in the world is because of free will, something that everybody wants.

MidGe

12-25-2005, 10:57 PM

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...Let's not foget that most of the pain and suffering in the world is because of free will, something that everybody wants.

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Take your blinkers off, godboy. Nature is cruel. You see it everywhere. That is so wether we talk about purely physical phenomenas (tsunami's erthquakes etc.. ) or sentient beings (When I look at that magnificent and majestic forest you see, I see animals, insects enter devouring each others and suffering just trying to survive or even give life).

Forget about the bus coming as you cross the road, the bus is over you already. Can't you for an instant let the truth into your being. Can't you for an instant take your blinkers off?

How can you call the cause of all this either intelligent or loving? How can you pay homage to this monstrosity? Is it fear? Is the experience too strong and too awful that you cannot possibly accept it.

You say we are made in his image. Well, I surely see it manifested in the lack of compassion and undertsanding displayed by believers, let alone in the pathologically disturbed ones.

Peter666

12-25-2005, 11:12 PM

I agree that most of life sucks, but it must be seen in the context of the final end. If it all merely ends with death, than we really are fools suffering for nothing. But if it ends with unsurpassed eternal joy or punishment, than we must take that into consideration.

To put it simply, everything bad in the world is there to remind us about Hell, and everything good in the world is there to remind us of Heaven, and this world is merely the place where we decide where to go and how much of it we want.

AJFenix

12-25-2005, 11:38 PM

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To put it simply, everything bad in the world is there to remind us about Hell, and everything good in the world is there to remind us of Heaven, and this world is merely the place where we decide where to go and how much of it we want.

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No, everything good on this world is symbolized by heaven and everything bad is symbolized by hell. This world already contains both hell and heaven, too bad you are too blind to enjoy the good of it here while you can and instead waste time pursuing the projected literal meaning of a symbolic fairy tale that is no different than such mythical tales as the Enuma Elish or the beliefs of the Dogon. Thor's might be with you.

godBoy

12-26-2005, 12:52 AM

I don't know the good of this world I cannot enjoy because of my faith in Jesus. He has liberated me to enjoy this world far more, and shares with me how to live a whole and pleasing life. I'm not satisfied with less, because of Him I have much more.

NotReady

12-26-2005, 01:33 AM

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can somebody explain to me why there is so much suffering in the world.

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This is the most difficult question humans ask. No non-Christian worldview has an answer. The Biblical answer is that man is the cause of suffering.

Romans 5

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Romans 6

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is not easily accepted for two reasons. Man refuses to admit he is guilty. Man refuses to acknowledge that God is just.

I can't explain the depth and amount of human suffering. But the Bible says that Jesus suffered all things we do, yet without sin. And it places the responsibility for suffering squarely on the shoulders of humanity. Christians believe that though it is difficult to see now God will be found both true and just. In a non-Christian world, all suffering is cruel and irrational with no hope and no purpose.

New001

12-26-2005, 03:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

can somebody explain to me why there is so much suffering in the world.

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This is the most difficult question humans ask. No non-Christian worldview has an answer. The Biblical answer is that man is the cause of suffering.

Romans 5

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Romans 6

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is not easily accepted for two reasons. Man refuses to admit he is guilty. Man refuses to acknowledge that God is just.

I can't explain the depth and amount of human suffering. But the Bible says that Jesus suffered all things we do, yet without sin. And it places the responsibility for suffering squarely on the shoulders of humanity. Christians believe that though it is difficult to see now God will be found both true and just. In a non-Christian world, all suffering is cruel and irrational with no hope and no purpose.

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From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism#The_Cause_of_Suffering):

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In Buddhism it teaches that suffering is caused by desire and want.

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Did I misunderstand what you said, or was it just ignorant?

NotReady

12-26-2005, 10:03 AM

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Did I misunderstand what you said, or was it just ignorant?

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The Bible is saying that human suffering is due to human guilt. Because we have rebelled against God we suffer. I don't think Buddhism teaches that man is a sinner. I'm not an expert on it but I think it's more like cause-effect. Stick your hand in the fire and don't be suprised if you suffer. You aren't morally wrong for doing so, just foolish. And the cure isn't forgiveness of sins. Just don't be foolish.

hmkpoker

12-26-2005, 11:45 AM

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In Buddhism it teaches that suffering is caused by desire and want.

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Did I misunderstand what you said, or was it just ignorant?

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In Buddhism, suffering is originally caused by ignorance.

AJFenix

12-26-2005, 12:46 PM

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I don't know the good of this world I cannot enjoy because of my faith in Jesus. He has liberated me to enjoy this world far more, and shares with me how to live a whole and pleasing life. I'm not satisfied with less, because of Him I have much more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you not feel the brainwash as you type that sentence? The might of Thor makes me stronger in my everyday tasks as well.

Peter666

12-26-2005, 04:33 PM

You are not very smart Fenix. Even if there is no God, Christians can still enjoy the good parts of life along with infidels like you, as godBoy mentioned. But if there is a God, you are really screwed, because we will have eternal joy and be able to make fun of you for all eternity. It is +EV for Christians and break even at best for you.

AJFenix

12-26-2005, 04:56 PM

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You are not very smart Fenix. Even if there is no God, Christians can still enjoy the good parts of life along with infidels like you, as godBoy mentioned. But if there is a God, you are really screwed, because we will have eternal joy and be able to make fun of you for all eternity. It is +EV for Christians and break even at best for you.

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Yea, I am definatly not very smart. You have it all figured out. Years of killing and converting people in the name of Christianity and salvation have really paid off. But what if there is a heaven for people that worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Then its +EV to be an FSM worshipper and only breakeven for christians and infidels like me.

I don't believe you can fully enjoy things on this Earth the same way while blinded by such a load of crap. Obviously you can enjoy the good parts of life, that wasn't what I was trying to project. I strongly believe the infidel in this situation is you for interpreting what I was saying in that fashion and coming to that conclusion alone. You should start worshipping the FSM, as it is clearly +EV and not worshipping = breakeven or worse. I mean, what if you are wrong? Or just go with Thor, because Thor kicks ass.

bunny

12-27-2005, 02:37 AM

I think most philosphical answers to this question fall into one of two broad categories:

1) This is the best of all possible worlds.

It is possible that there is some upper limit on the amount of goodness in the world, or that good can't exist without evil. After all, we cant really conceive of what it would be like to create the universe, who knows what requirements there are for a consistent, morally rich world (if that is what god wants).

2) The existence of evil generates a "higher order" good.

This argument suggests that without suffering, pain and inexplicable tragedy - intelligent, moral beings would never be able to express compassion, sympathy, sacrifice, etc. Proponents of this view often hold that these "second order" morals are more pure or of more value than first order morals (such as respect for life, etc).

There are also theological answers about god punishing us for our sins and so on but it is hard to credit these as arguments if you are not already a believer. The first two, although you may decide to reject them, can at least be understood from the position of a non-believer.

Zak

12-28-2005, 09:32 AM

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This is the most difficult question humans ask. No non-Christian worldview has an answer.

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Was this a joke? Did you even bother to check? Jews believe suffering is one of their God's ways of teaching. Houston Smith put it as "meaning in suffering" You should know this since Christianity evolved from Judaism. Buddhists believe that suffering is caused by ignorance which leads to attachment which leads to suffering (though all of these things are themselves illusions) other religions have other answers.

Furthermore your argument is self defeating. You say suffering is caused by sin, but that Jesus suffered without sin. You then go on to say that suffering is our fault. However if your god created man, your god created the garden of Eden, your god created that tree of knowledge from which came original sin (and therefore suffering) and man ate from that tree thus causing suffering is it not that your god created suffering? Furthermore if he is all knowing why would he create a situation where man would inevitably fail, he must have intentionally tempted man. Thus your malevolent god created suffering.

Zak

12-28-2005, 09:36 AM

NotReady

12-28-2005, 01:26 PM

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Jews believe suffering is one of their God's ways of teaching.

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I post a lot and it's really tedious to repeat everything I've said before in each new post. When I say Christianity I include other religions that are Bible based as far as they agree with Christian doctrine. Therefore, in context, it would include Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, etc.

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Buddhists believe that suffering is caused by ignorance which leads to attachment which leads to suffering (though all of these things are themselves illusions)

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Do you really consider this an answer? Someone undergoing the most intense and painful suffering possible is simply having an illusion?

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is it not that your god created suffering?

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Yes, God created suffering. He is just to cause sinners to suffer. The moral responsibility rests with the sinner.

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Furthermore if he is all knowing why would he create a situation where man would inevitably fail, he must have intentionally tempted man. Thus your malevolent god created suffering.

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I said it's a difficult question, the most difficult for Christians. I disagree that the fact the fall was inevitable from God's point of view gives man an excuse. God considered the creation of man with free will was better than not creating, even though the result is much suffering.

AJFenix

12-28-2005, 02:00 PM

Jeeze NotReady, the brainwash just reeks within you, doesn't it? Yea, God is just to cause all of those poor African kids who don't even know the meaning of sin to sit there rotting away from disease and starvation. Oh, I'm sorry, they are responsible for a sin that the first two human beings on Earth set in motion in the bible to create an arguement for why there is suffering and the everloving God apparently hasn't gotten over it yet. I see.

Warik

12-28-2005, 02:29 PM

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we will have eternal joy and be able to make fun of you for all eternity.

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Isn't that a sin? Not very Christian of you.

What would God say?

NotReady

12-28-2005, 02:31 PM

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Oh, I'm sorry, they are responsible for a sin that the first two human beings on Earth set in motion in the bible to create an arguement for why there is suffering and the everloving God apparently hasn't gotten over it yet

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I didn't say that. The Bible doesn't say that. But I can't make all Bible doctrine compatible with an irrational, atheistic worldview.

The logic is that man is sinful and that has consequences. Even innocents suffer. God is just and any suffering that would in itself be unjust will be remedied by God. I don't know how. I just know that God is just and loving.

hmkpoker

12-28-2005, 02:36 PM

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Buddhists believe that suffering is caused by ignorance which leads to attachment which leads to suffering (though all of these things are themselves illusions)

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Do you really consider this an answer? Someone undergoing the most intense and painful suffering possible is simply having an illusion?

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The buddhist notion of "suffering" is a little different than ours, and something gets lost in translation. Dukkha is an existential kind of suffering, referring to the constant sense of desire and addiction that comes about from the materialistic world. It doesn't really refer to physical pain, I'm not sure what the Buddhists have to say about that.

The illusion is the mental perception of that which is percieved to cause the pain. However, the pain results more directly from the illusion than the actual object. So to avoid pain you have to escape all the fun things in life.

Yeah, that's why I stopped being a Buddhist /images/graemlins/smile.gif

AJFenix

12-28-2005, 02:53 PM

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I didn't say that. The Bible doesn't say that. But I can't make all Bible doctrine compatible with an irrational, atheistic worldview.

The logic is that man is sinful and that has consequences. Even innocents suffer. God is just and any suffering that would in itself be unjust will be remedied by God. I don't know how. I just know that God is just and loving.

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And it is the atheistic worldview that is irrational here? Wake up and smell the roses.

NotReady

12-28-2005, 02:56 PM

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So to avoid pain you have to escape all the fun things in life.

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I haven't read Buddhism but from what I've seen it appears very similar fundamentally to Plato. He considered the material world inherently evil and the "good" life involves separating oneself from one's natural desires and pursuing intellectual and spiritual goals. Contrary to popular belief, the Bible does not impose this idea on mankind. Some branches of Christianity do so but I believe they are unscriptural. God created all things and He said after He finished that it is all good. The evil is not in the material world but in our misuse of it.

Zak

12-28-2005, 10:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I post a lot and it's really tedious to repeat everything I've said before in each new post. When I say Christianity I include other religions that are Bible based as far as they agree with Christian doctrine. Therefore, in context, it would include Judaism, Islam, Mormonism, etc.

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Then I suggest you, rather than repeat everything, include the word “Judeo” and a hyphen and say Judeo-Christian. Rather than assume I've read every post you ever made prior to replying. However Judiasm and Islam are not Bible bassed. Christianity comes from Judaism not the other way around. Judaism is Torah bassed. Islam, though parts come from the bible and Torah, is Koran based. Also the only "context" I have is what you typed not what you meant.

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Do you really consider this an answer? Someone undergoing the most intense and painful suffering possible is simply having an illusion?

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They’re not "simply having an illusion" everything down to your root perceptions is an illusion. It is your reaction to the world that causes you to suffer, but what you are really reacting to is not as it seems.
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Yes, God created suffering. He is just to cause sinners to suffer. The moral responsibility rests with the sinner.

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He is just in making us suffer because he created sin? We are morally responsible for something we have no control over? Your religion says he created us. All of our behavior would be a consequence of his actions; so sin is his creation. Why are we punished for his doing?

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I said it's a difficult question, the most difficult for Christians. I disagree that the fact the fall was inevitable from God's point of view gives man an excuse. God considered the creation of man with free will was better than not creating, even though the result is much suffering.

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Why? Once again you've only said that your god created suffering and then says it’s our fault. You said he gave us free will and considered it better than the alternative. But if your god is all-knowing should he not have known a way to have free will without suffering. This would be something to know and saying he knows everything means he knows it.

Perhaps it's such a difficult question because your theology does not provide an answer.

Zak

12-28-2005, 11:00 PM

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So to avoid pain you have to escape all the fun things in life.

Yeah, that's why I stopped being a Buddhist /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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You don't have to avoid fun you just have to not be attached to fun. Fun is an essential part of life. Buddhism teaches the most important thing is happiness. There is a big difference between happiness and pleasure. Seeking pleasure will not lead to happiness, but that doesn’t mean happiness does not include pleasure.

hmkpoker

12-28-2005, 11:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So to avoid pain you have to escape all the fun things in life.

Yeah, that's why I stopped being a Buddhist /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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You don't have to avoid fun you just have to not be attached to fun. Fun is an essential part of life. Buddhism teaches the most important thing is happiness. There is a big difference between happiness and pleasure. Seeking pleasure will not lead to happiness, but that doesn’t mean happiness does not include pleasure.

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In theory, yes, but Buddhist practice is, by my standards, too ascetic. Having read the parts of Tipitaka that involve the codes of conduct, I thought it was a little too self-depriving. I don't think it's fair to call it a "middle way"...the middle way shouldn't involve me not eating any animal products, never doing drugs, and never having sex.

However, I acknowledge that I'm still young. Some 40 somethings that I know who are keen on the subject say that, after a decadent and fulfilling youth, buddhism makes more sense. Gotama had his fill of Samsara before he renounced, so perhaps we young'uns have to do the same /images/graemlins/smile.gif

bocablkr

12-28-2005, 11:38 PM

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we will have eternal joy and be able to make fun of you for all eternity.

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Isn't that a sin? Not very Christian of you.

What would God say?

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Probably send them to hell /images/graemlins/smile.gif

MidGe

12-29-2005, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Having read the parts of Tipitaka that involve the codes of conduct, I thought it was a little too self-depriving. I don't think it's fair to call it a "middle way"...the middle way shouldn't involve me not eating any animal products, never doing drugs, and never having sex.

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hmkpoker,

FYI, the part of the Tipitaka (triple basket) you are referring to (the Vinaya Pitaka) addresses codes of conduct for those that elect to pursue the monastic life. Those precepts do not apply to ordinary people. As a monk they are totally dependent on others for their needs. In return for that favour, they are expected to devote their life exclusively to the ultimate Buddhist achievement, the eradication of greed, hate and ignorance from their psychology.

Accomplishment of this aim can be done, albeit with more difficulty, whilst having a typical life (family, friends and an ethical source of income).

NotReady

12-29-2005, 01:16 AM

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Christianity comes from Judaism

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Christianity comes from the Bible.

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Judaism is Torah bassed.

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I'm not sure about modern Judaism. I do believe they also rely on the Bible.

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Islam, though parts come from the bible and Torah, is Koran based.

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The Koran relies in part on the Bible.

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He is just in making us suffer because he created sin?

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He didn't create sin.

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All of our behavior would be a consequence of his actions; so sin is his creation.

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He is the sine qua non but not the morally responsible agent. Are you responsible for all the acts of your children?

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But if your god is all-knowing should he not have known a way to have free will without suffering.

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It isn't a question of knowledge, it's a question of possibility.

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Perhaps it's such a difficult question because your theology does not provide an answer.

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This is correct if by answer you mean something that is fully understandable and fully acceptable to fallen human reason.

Zak

12-29-2005, 04:45 AM

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Christianity comes from the Bible.

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And the first five books of the bible come from the Torah

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I'm not sure about modern Judaism. I do believe they also rely on the Bible.

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You are wrong, relying on the bible would mean they accept Jesus. Though some Jews do they are a minority.

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He didn't create sin.

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So where did it come from? Humans I guess you would say its our fault but God had complete controle over our creation. He also must have created the Tree of knowledge since he created the earth. And that tree is the source of Sin so he created sin, or at least, laid the foundations that would inevitabley (he knows everything before it happens remember) lead to sin.

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Are you responsible for all the acts of your children?

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If, as you say your god did, you created every last detail of your children yes you would be.

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It isn't a question of knowledge, it's a question of possibility.

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To an all powerfull god nothing is impossible. This was my original point. If he knows how to do it, it can be done.

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This is correct if by answer you mean something that is fully understandable and fully acceptable to fallen human reason.

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If human reasoning is "fallen" how can you trust yourself to believe in your own god? Perhaps in your fallen mind you have been decieved and the god you worship is really just Satan tricking you into worshiping a false god.

NotReady

12-29-2005, 02:24 PM

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And the first five books of the bible come from the Torah

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I think it's more like the Torah comes from the Bible. Judaism is Bible based. The Bible is not Juaism based.

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You are wrong, relying on the bible would mean they accept Jesus. Though some Jews do they are a minority.

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They rely on the Old Testament which is part of the Bible which makes Judaism Bible based. This is getting silly.

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So where did it come from? Humans I guess

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I think it's really neat when people answer their own questions.

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If, as you say your god did, you created every last detail of your children yes you would be.

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I don't say that.

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To an all powerfull god nothing is impossible.

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Yes it is.

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If human reasoning is "fallen" how can you trust yourself to believe in your own god?

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I don't trust myself. I trust God. And I don't trust Him becuase of my reason.

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Perhaps in your fallen mind you have been decieved and the god you worship is really just Satan tricking you into worshiping a false god.

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This is why humility is a virtue.

Zak

01-03-2006, 09:07 AM

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I think it's more like the Torah comes from the Bible. Judaism is Bible based. The Bible is not Juaism based.

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This quote itself demonstrates you don't know what you’re talking about. If you look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page) you can see the various books that make up the Old Testament shared by various religions. Judaism existed long before Christianity (otherwise Jesus could not have been a Jew) Therefore it is obvious Judaism did not come from Christianity. The rest I've already addressed.